Blue Dream CA78

You're right Flying900, the front outer two are the only ones carrying oil (besides two middle front on the bottom and a 6mm near the oil pump). I had them and it seemed Bill Silver said to go ahead and use them in his guide.
Thanks, I'm happy to see it coming together too, but there is a few things to work out as I go.
 
Still looking great and coming along. Good to know the washers are correct then on mine, as I do have the copper ones in all the correct places top and bottom.
 
One of the things I've been wanting to do and waiting till the bike had some weight was to expand the small footprint of the sidestand so it won't sink into the ground so easily. The stock one wasn't even flat anymore so I'll weld this 1/8" thick washer on, offset to hang down when it's in the up position and grind it round a bit before paint.

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Rare photo of a 305 primary drive sprocket and it's cush drive removed from the clutch outer. Since this was a broken part anyway, I drilled the rivet peened ends down and drove them out to satisfy my curiosity and to see if there was a way to tighten up the 1-2mm rotational play in my good one. Looking at it, I think the play is due to worn rubber bushings and further peening of the rivets wouldn't do much.
Well, if my good one fails more, I could reassemble with these bushings and the best sprocket by welding the tapered rivets to the backing plate.
Hat tip to Hotrodfarmboy for the inspiration from his advancer unit repair.

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^^^Yet another part I'm sure Honda didn't expect owners to be looking at 50+ years on. Of course their idea was a valid one, but when you consider the use of rubber damping in an oil-bathed location along with heat and time in a unit not designed to be serviceable, they couldn't have expected half a century of existence or use without the need for repair or replacement. When we look at and talk about this kind of stuff, we have to keep in perspective the intent and thoughtful design used during these bikes' era that few manufacturers are doing today in the current era of high profit margin and more disposable approach.
 
Looks like this Cappellini set up uses M6 bolts in place of rivets. No nuts, so must require threading the clutch drive hub 8 stubs.

Honda CA72/77 Cappellini Moto #123 duplex primary chain conversion- 23 mm RED | eBay

Think I'll pass on this job for now, as it could easily be done later.

They also make a WHITE which has the older 21mm inner diameter spline depth (deeper). They have an image of Honda parts bulletin 214 May 12, 1967, that I could not copy, which pertains to this.
 
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Rare photo of a 305 primary drive sprocket and it's cush drive removed from the clutch outer. Since this was a broken part anyway, I drilled the rivet peened ends down and drove them out to satisfy my curiosity and to see if there was a way to tighten up the 1-2mm rotational play in my good one. Looking at it, I think the play is due to worn rubber bushings and further peening of the rivets wouldn't do much.
Well, if my good one fails more, I could reassemble with these bushings and the best sprocket by welding the tapered rivets to the backing plate.
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Thats a known issue with the big litre CB DOHC clutches, where as AD pointed out that time a wear on those Cush rubbers cause a noise/rattle in the clutch basket at idle. A fellow from Netherlands devised a repair kit that requires doing the removal like you did and then tapping the towers for a 6mm cap bolt supplied in the kit and new Cush rubbers installed.

I did the fix a number of years ago on the CB1000C with good results. Apparently the rubbers shrink slightly and either harden more or start to break down.


 
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ballbearian said:
Those rubbers are not available normally.
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Understood he fabricated new rubbers and supplied the cap head 6mm replacement bolts for the fix. Your job was the remove the old pins as you did and drive them out. Then tap the towers with a 6mm X1.0TP tap replace the old rubbers and reassemble. Honda didn’t supply a replacement as you noted, it was a private individual who designed the kit.
 
The one I dismantled was still tight and the rubbers look great but are hard as a rock. Perhaps Claus Studios could make some repops for future repairs for others. That's great to hear that you successfully fixed a 1000.

I doubt my better one will rattle as it only slips rotationally about 1-2mm and it may outlast me. :)
 
ballbearian said:
I doubt my better one will rattle as it only slips rotationally about 1-2mm and it may outlast me. :)
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And I suspect the potential lack of durability due to the rubber hardness won't be an issue for the (comparatively) low amount of miles that you'll put on the bike as well as the casual riding you'll do with it (ie, no drag strip runs or burnouts)
 
ancientdad said:
And I suspect the potential lack of durability due to the rubber hardness won't be an issue for the (comparatively) low amount of miles that you'll put on the bike as well as the casual riding you'll do with it (ie, no drag strip runs or burnouts)
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That's for sure.
 
Here is my modified sidestand paw. The original is too small IMO for the weight of this bike in the soft ground around here, after all, I only live about an hour and a half from The Swamp. :biggrin:

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I think my welding has a somewhat rustic look to it. :lol:
 
ballbearian said:
Here is my modified sidestand paw. The original is too small IMO for the weight of this bike in the soft ground around here, after all, I only live about an hour and a half from The Swamp. :biggrin:
I think my welding has a somewhat rustic look to it. :lol:
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Isn't that part of the riding ritual learning how to pick them back up when they fall over? ;) Welding is a skill I never tried, so you guys that can weld have a extra tool in the quiver.

AKA "Bigfoot"
 
While my friction discs are soaking in oil, I thought I'd remove most of the notches on the clutch basket fingers using a long file to keep to the same angle as the machined cuts. Only taking off enough to get it smooth to the finger.

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The primary chains are not as good as they could be but the best one may do. Here is a bad one that has a worn area next to my thumb. Even the best one is at the full 20mm deflection from wear and stretch.

Ebay wants $165 shipped for a NOS RK 328. Ouch! There aren't that many out there and no OEM OCD that I could find.
Got a kick out of the seller's name, coelacanth, which I think is a previously extinct fish that was rediscovered. How appropriate.

I even looked at generic chain manufactures but this is a short pitch (<10mm) and pretty fat width. Nothing close.


If anyone out there has a stash of these, it's time to cash in and I'm in line. :)
 
ballbearian said:
I'm not sure if he replaced his on his recent CL77 or where he would have got one. Most of the Nort country sellers use ebay, I think.
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Tom once they are gone they are gone and rebuilding these bikes will be over. I did of course replace mine along with everything else inside that motor. I looked worldwide and did include that in my build thread with some contact with Jensen on the trials of finding a supplier. No one will or is supplying that oddball chain anymore and likely never will given the cost involved for a production run of them.

If you plan on building more of these bikes, buy as many as you can afford and at $165 US that is a deal. I spent more for mine from Thailand and there are only a few of these left in the world now it seems.

Jensen of course has a stash of them and my original chain did show some stretch, yet seems in spec still. If your interested I have a NOS tensioner assembly for the primary along with that original chain, at a fair price for both. PM me if you want them.

Now for some National Geographic trivia, as a 40+ year subscriber and reader. The Coelacanth was a long thought extinct prehistoric fish that was netted by some local South African fishermen not that many years ago. :)
 
Flyin900 said:
Tom once they are gone they are gone and rebuilding these bikes will be over. I did of course replace mine along with everything else inside that motor. I looked worldwide and did include that in my build thread with some contact with Jensen on the trials of finding a supplier. No one will or is supplying that oddball chain anymore and likely never will given the cost involved for a production run of them.

If you plan on building more of these bikes, buy as many as you can afford and at $165 US that is a deal. I spent more for mine from Thailand and there are only a few of these left in the world now it seems.

Jensen of course has a stash of them and my original chain did show some stretch, yet seems in spec still. If your interested I have a NOS tensioner assembly for the primary along with that original chain, at a fair price for both. PM me if you want them.

Now for some National Geographic trivia, as a 40+ year subscriber and reader. The Coelacanth was a long thought extinct prehistoric fish that was netted by some local South African fishermen not that many years ago. :)
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Good ole NG. Not sure where I read about the Coelacanth, it was years ago. They probably would bury the story today because it sort of poops on the joke of evolution. Still a cool name for a vintage parts seller.
As it turns out, I was talking to my buddy Charles about the build and the chain situation. His response was, "We have to keep the Dreams running, get two, I'll buy". So I did. I did get a decent crank sprocket too recently so now have a couple set ups for mine and "our" spare motor. My extra tensioner is still good also. Thank you for the offer, I'm sure you could get a great price going forward.
NOS and good used 305 parts are going to continue outstripping even gold, which is another thing I should have bought 20 years ago. When we all go out to dinner someday, Jensen's buying :biggrin:.
 
jensen said:
Beginning next year I will be in the US if they let me in (no covid vaccination).
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That's great! Us colonists' wave that flag with the snake on it saying, 'Don't shed on me'. My genome is OEM also.
I'll be here, I don't get out much.
 
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Got the oil spinner fixed up with it's new custom chain courtesy of Flying 900. Primary chain will get replaced with the new one when it gets here. I think the 6 plate clutch is gonna fly, The overall thickness is the same as the 5 plate original.

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Looking good and coming along. That should be going a varoom varoom soon.
 
If you haven’t already tightened it down the castle nut on the crankshaft the taper should face inward to meet the angled part of the lock washer IMO.
 
Flyin900 said:
If you haven’t already tightened it down the castle nut on the crankshaft the taper should face inward to meet the angled part of the lock washer IMO.
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Good catch, and I'm sure Honda designed it that way to avoid digging into the tongued lock washer. I suspect he has it finger-tight right now since he plans to replace the primary chain when it arrives.
 
Yes it's only finger tight and to tell the truth, I was a bit uncertain about the direction of the dished spring washer as well. It seems that the convex side should be facing out, correct? And the nut would then have the tapered edge facing in, as Flying 900 said. Also, I should probably try to get another locking tab washer because mine only has one leg left, that fits into the spline slots.

Update: DSS has them special order so I'll get 3 ($3.37 ea).

Any guess on torque value for that fine threaded locknut?
 
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bilbikek411 said:
The clutch six-pack should be quite an improvement.
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I hope so. It's the same thickness as a 5 pack but if it drags or is truely impossible to find neutral then I can always go back to a 5 pack and put in the fine wire separators. Maybe I'm overly optimistic from the 5 to 6 disc upgrade on the CB160 went well.
 
ballbearian said:
Yes it's only finger tight and to tell the truth, I was a bit uncertain about the direction of the dished spring washer as well. It seems that the convex side should be facing out, correct? And the nut would then have the tapered edge facing in, as Flying 900 said. Also, I should probably try to get another locking tab washer because mine only has one leg left, that fits into the spline slots.

Update: DSS has them special order so I'll get 3 ($3.37 ea).

Any guess on torque value for that fine threaded locknut?
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Yes, convex facing out and some of them are actually marked "outside". I tighten the nut with a penny in between the gears (I know, you can't on the engines with a primary chain) but like so many things on these engines that torque is secondary to simple tightness, I just use a 3/8" ratchet and tighten it. If I were rebuilding a 305 I'd probably give it a couple of bumps past snug with a cordless impact wrench. It's kinda like doing lug nuts with one, you know when the nut is bottomed and then you watch the nut rotation when you bump it a couple of times past that. Once the spring washer is compressed flat and the nut is tight, the lock tab will keep it from going anywhere and there's no outward load on it anyway.
 
ancientdad said:
Yes, convex facing out and some of them are actually marked "outside". I tighten the nut with a penny in between the gears (I know, you can't on the engines with a primary chain) but like so many things on these engines that torque is secondary to simple tightness, I just use a 3/8" ratchet and tighten it. If I were rebuilding a 305 I'd probably give it a couple of bumps past snug with a cordless impact wrench. It's kinda like doing lug nuts with one, you know when the nut is bottomed and then you watch the nut rotation when you bump it a couple of times past that. Once the spring washer is compressed flat and the nut is tight, the lock tab will keep it from going anywhere and there's no outward load on it anyway.
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Good to buy a new one as the tab on the backside on mine was missing and the nut was on backwards, as someone had been on there before and put it together missing that rear lock tab and a backwards nut. That is how I picked up yours being backwards, as LDR answered my question way back in my build as I was suspicious there was a mistake. Without that rear facing lock tab the locking part is really not working correctly on the crankshaft.
 
Flyin900 said:
Good to buy a new one as the tab on the backside on mine was missing and the nut was on backwards, as someone had been on there before and put it together missing that rear lock tab and a backwards nut. That is how I picked up yours being backwards, as LDR answered my question way back in my build as I was suspicious there was a mistake. Without that rear facing lock tab the locking part is really not working correctly on the crankshaft.
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Excellent point.
 
Flyin900 said:
Good to buy a new one as the tab on the backside on mine was missing and the nut was on backwards, as someone had been on there before and put it together missing that rear lock tab and a backwards nut. That is how I picked up yours being backwards, as LDR answered my question way back in my build as I was suspicious there was a mistake. Without that rear facing lock tab the locking part is really not working correctly on the crankshaft.
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I'm glad you brought it up as that would be something I'd forget and then, in a rush to finish, might skip replacing it. At least they are cheap enough from DSS and I've got 3 on the way for me, Charles and the spare motor. Also got a set of starter clutch springs coming too.

Doing the internals of the motor was fun (mostly) but this phase of the build is pretty enjoyable to watch it start to look like something ridable. Yeah, it's come a long way baby and I've learned a lot from all the advice from here, thanks a bunch to all.
 
ballbearian said:
Yeah, it's come a long way baby and I've learned a lot from all the advice from here, thanks a bunch to all.
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To me, this is the best part of what we do here.

We're only 105 new members away from 2000 and just over 14,000 posts until 100,000 total, all in less than 3 years. And it just keeps getting better. (y)
 
ancientdad said:
To me, this is the best part of what we do here.

We're only 105 new members away from 2000 and just over 14,000 posts until 100,000 total, all in less than 3 years. And it just keeps getting better. (y)
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The quantity follows the quality. Sort of, build it and they will come. (y)
 
ballbearian said:
The quantity follows the quality. Sort of, build it and they will come. (y)
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I keep watching the greater influx at that other site and look forward to the day when we get enough legacy content that the influx tide turns. New members absolutely do not realize how few there actually have knowledge and that the few that do are actually here.
 
ancientdad said:
I keep watching the greater influx at that other site and look forward to the day when we get enough legacy content that the influx tide turns. New members absolutely do not realize how few there actually have knowledge and that the few that do are actually here.
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I'm pretty clueless about the actual dynamics of the internet and forums, etc. I would think it'd be easier to have patience just knowing you did the right thing, a good thing. A clear conscience is it's own reward and success and growth are all gravy. (y)
 
ballbearian said:
I'm pretty clueless about the actual dynamics of the internet and forums, etc. I would think it'd be easier to have patience just knowing you did the right thing, a good thing. A clear conscience is it's own reward and success and growth are all gravy. (y)
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I've been having patience, nothing else can be done but that (well, other than blowing up their server, LOL). I just know that one day we will have enough total [quality] content, both current and legacy (there from the beginning) that the majority of those looking for a vintage Honda twins forum will see us first.
 
Lots of tedious little jobs to do like cleaning up and fixing screws for the side covers, soldering ground strap, putting in the 1/4" missing detent ball in the kicker pivot, making a new brake switch link and wrestling the rear brake arm return spring to fit the arm fully on.

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The one on the right is as found semi mangled, the middle one is after peening the flares back down and finally, on the left, is reforming the cross with the impact JIS #3 bit. So far I've saved almost every single one, not beautiful but acceptable and functional.

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Since my battery have the terminals reversed and I don't think much of the OEM ground strap (broken one on vise), I made a strap to go inside to the motor mount bolt.

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There was enough rust in the spring cavity that the old ball might have fallen out from lack of tension.

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Old DT Swiss stainless bicycle spokes work good for things like this.

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On Dreams the brake arm spindles seem to often get twisted like the one on the right due to not getting the brake pedal arm fully on the spindle. It is a booger to get it on because of the stout return spring on the other side that wants to jam into a gap between the frame and the spindle arm. Here the spindle splines are proud of the splined clamping part of the pedal arm. I've learned this the hard way on Charles bike and the pedal arm won't stay tight either. It only took me 2 or 3 attempts to get it tight and right. :cry:

Oh, and straightening brake pedal arms is only slightly more fun than straightening handlebars.
 
Lots of nice clear close-ups there Tom, and creative work on salvaging things as usual. When you have more time than money like many of us, it makes perfect sense to invest some of it into repairing the parts that are hard to find or outrageously expensive if/when you do find them.
 
Looks like a little twist-reshaping was in order. Nice job making something work. Purdy shiny pipes too.
 
The one on the right is as found semi mangled, the middle one is after peening the flares back down and finally, on the left, is reforming the cross with the impact JIS #3 bit. So far I've saved almost every single one, not beautiful but acceptable and functional.
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Thanks for sharing this. I have not seen this done before but will definitely be a useful technique to use going forward.




nhAM4tz.jpg
 
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