RobMan
Veteran Member
Is there any chance the primer got contaminated somehow?
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71ish CB450 build
- Thread starter boddy
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It's a rattle can so I don't think it got contaminated. I will wait for a sunny dry day and try this again. Good thing I didn't activate my 2K clear for the cases as that would have been a most discouraging outcome if that clouded over.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I have. Some paint stocks just get old and the components (pigment, vehicle, binder) seem to separate. Shaking the can a long time helps.
I eventually gave up on one can and just bought another newer one.
The humidity finally broke a few days ago so I wet sanded my headlight bucket which removed the cloudiness and then resprayed a coat of black. Waited a couple of days and applied a coat of Spray Max 2K. Not as glossy as I would like so will apply a glossier clear coat in a few days.
Looks way better, and I'd suspect you could use a little light compound to get a satin gloss out of it as is.
While I was geared up for the 2K clear coat, I sprayed the top and bottom engine cases as well as the side cases.
I waited a few days for the clear to harden then began the re-assembly of the bottom end.
Started to put the crankshaft back together. Getting those rollers in takes some patience. To keep them from falling out, I put an elastic band around the cage and then slipped the rollers in one by one while turning the cage so the empty slot was always on top. While I did the outer bearings I left the elastics wrapped around the con rods to keep the inner races from moving.
Since the outer races are removeable, it's easy to put them on the wrong way. I had the remove the outer race on the rotor side as it was not oriented such that the oil hole in the race was lined up with the oil hole in the upper case. That would have been a disaster!
I waited a few days for the clear to harden then began the re-assembly of the bottom end.
Started to put the crankshaft back together. Getting those rollers in takes some patience. To keep them from falling out, I put an elastic band around the cage and then slipped the rollers in one by one while turning the cage so the empty slot was always on top. While I did the outer bearings I left the elastics wrapped around the con rods to keep the inner races from moving.
Since the outer races are removeable, it's easy to put them on the wrong way. I had the remove the outer race on the rotor side as it was not oriented such that the oil hole in the race was lined up with the oil hole in the upper case. That would have been a disaster!
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Good point, I'll try some 1200 wet sanding followed by some rubbing compound to see if I can bring up the gloss level.
RobMan
Veteran Member
I know what you mean about the thought of putting the bearing races on backwards, I think a double checked myself about a half dozen times because it would be a disaster. As for the bearings I just used a small dab of bearing grease to hold the bearings in place until I could slip the race in place. I also had to remind myself to check the orientation of the center bearing cap using the marks the alignment pin opening makes. The covers look great and if the engine cases look as good you will probably have a twinge of anxiety when getting the completed engine ready to go back in the frame.
Thanks. I'm doing all of this work in the basement (except for painting) so when it comes time to put the engine in the frame I will bring everything to the garage. My plan is to install the rotor and stator to be able to do the cam timing and then I will remove that in order to lighten the engine when I bring it upstairs. I won't install the starter motor nor anything on the clutch side. I will do the frame over engine approach so hopefully nothing gets scratched
RobMan
Veteran Member
Very good ideas, every pound/kilo less you have to shift is a good thing. I have decided there is definitely changes happening in the universe where objects are gradually accumulating mass and gravity is exerting more pull on those objects as well otherwise I would not be straining to lift objects that were no problem only a "few" years ago.
I just read this morning that our moon is slowly drifting away from earth, so it makes sense that it is helping us lift heavy stuff less and less by the year. /s
I remember when I worked at a dealer I had no problem removing a CB450 engine on my own - that was a long time ago and yes every pound counts now.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That was the Spraymax 2K Clear Glamour (368 0061)? I've occasionally seen a Clear Satin (368 0067) alternative on the shelf at my local supplier.
I bought the Clear Satin (368 0067) mainly to do the cases and thought I would use it on the headlight bucket to protect it a bit better, it's almost $50 a can here in Canada and I didn't want to spend that much for the Clear Glamour just for the bucket. My frame is a semi-gloss and the bucket looks dull compared to the frame so I need to get it a bit glossier.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That makes sense. At least with the 2K clear satin, the color paint should be protected regardless of what happens with the 1K clear on top. And 1K clear ought to hold up fine on the headlight bucket. Honestly, I kind of like that Satin look.
Paint seems to be one of the many things that has shot up in price recently. I can't believe one can of Duplicolor is now $17.
Paint seems to be one of the many things that has shot up in price recently. I can't believe one can of Duplicolor is now $17.
Managed to get a few hours in doing some re-assembly of the bottom end. Started with the crankshaft center bearing cap. I threaded the 8mm bolts in but they did not screw in all the way. Upon closer inspection i found more blasting media in almost all of the blind holes. This was after washing each part twice in the parts washer and using compressed air! Took me about 3 hours to go over every bolt and screw on the upper and lower cases with a thread chaser, pick and compressed air. Made sure that every bolt hole was able to accept all of the threads of the bolt. I have a feeling washing the cases just made a nice paste of the blast media that the compressed air could not dislodge.
Installed the kickstart mechanism, shift drum, main and counter shafts as well as new seals. Made sure the locating pins and and half-ring for the bearings were all aligned. Put a dab of Honda bond on the clutch rod seal for extra insurance. Installed the crank shaft and a new cam chain and torqued down the bearing cap.
Put a light coat of Honda bond on the lower case and then put the cases together. Sorry forgot to take a pick of the honda bond. I torqued all the case bolts as per the specs. Just the slightest amount of Honda Bond oozed out - .5mm. Next step will be to install the stator and rotor and then move on to the top end.
Installed the kickstart mechanism, shift drum, main and counter shafts as well as new seals. Made sure the locating pins and and half-ring for the bearings were all aligned. Put a dab of Honda bond on the clutch rod seal for extra insurance. Installed the crank shaft and a new cam chain and torqued down the bearing cap.
Put a light coat of Honda bond on the lower case and then put the cases together. Sorry forgot to take a pick of the honda bond. I torqued all the case bolts as per the specs. Just the slightest amount of Honda Bond oozed out - .5mm. Next step will be to install the stator and rotor and then move on to the top end.
RobMan
Veteran Member
We do seem to be close in our engine rebuild progress at the moment, just my cases together today. I have enjoyed watching your thread and comparing notes.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I thought it was a race!
In this case I prefer to be the tortoise, slow and sure
. Watching @RobMan 's build makes me ponder all the next steps and what pitfalls might lie in wait!
RobMan
Veteran Member
Really glad you caught the blasting media still in the bolt holes and yes could have seized or broke a bolt. I remember another member had that issue when installing cam bearings on the head but can't remember the exact thread. Not sure what I will install next, I am thinking oil pump and clutch next.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Have either of you decided whether you plan to install frame over motor or motor into frame?
If motor into frame, it will be lighter and smaller without the crankcase side covers, clutch, rotor, etc.
I was rescued from that ugly situation by Chris Schumann when I sent my 450 head to him. I'd gotten the head in a parts and cash deal for my V65 a few years back from a member of HT who we previously thought was a decent machinist. Apparently he'd blasted the head before thoroughly washing it free of oil and it accumulated globs of media in many nooks and crannies. Chris cleaned it all out for me including the screw/bolt holes.
RobMan
Veteran Member
I am not sure, the frame over motor is probably easier but I really want to have the engine completely put together before starting the frame and running gear. If I have too many parts of a project going at once I tend to lose track of stuff both figuratively and literally. I was already planning on getting my daughter and my big strong son in law to come visit that weekend.
Yup, that was me with the cam bearing. That's why I decided to make sure the bolts were able to go in completely before doing the final assembly.
Yeah, it does take a lot of time to really clean things out and make sure screws/bolts will not get jammed up by the media.
My approach is going to be frame over motor but first I need to bring the engine up from the basement to the garage, so the lighter the better. I will be leaving off the side covers, clutch, rotor, stator and starter motor.
You have seen this from my assembly, right?
Engine completely assembled, and the hardest part was standing up the frame and engine together afterward. Then you just start putting pieces on and blocking up the frame for height as needed. The second time around I took the entire front end off, fully assembled, at the steering stem.
Hopefully either mechanically assisted or with another set of hands - that's a heavy lump of awkward to work against gravity.
RobMan
Veteran Member
No I haven't seen this but I definitely take a look. Do you have a link to the thread?
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Of course, and the original lengthy thread at HT as well.
CL450 project reboot, street-legal this time
This attempts to be a synopsis of the nearly 500 posts of my "little red monster" build from another forum long ago... original build thread is here if anyone is interested. CL450 project reboot, street legal this time When I was 19, I built a CL450K5 into a modified class drag bike Ever...
www.vintagehondatwins.com
But back to Brad's project now...
I better finish the assembly while my daughter is visiting
. Maybe I can convince her it's not that heavy!
Will definitely review this prior to proceeding with the frame over engine.Of course, and the original lengthy thread at HT as well.
CL450 project reboot, street-legal this time
This attempts to be a synopsis of the nearly 500 posts of my "little red monster" build from another forum long ago... original build thread is here if anyone is interested. CL450 project reboot, street legal this time When I was 19, I built a CL450K5 into a modified class drag bike Ever...
But back to Brad's project now...
It's simple enough, just have the long lower motor mount bolts handy and slip them into the frame and engine as the frame slides over the mounts on the lower case. That will stabilize it enough so you can tip it upright on the bottom of the frame, and go from there.
Yeah - it's amazing how quickly those things get really heavy. You can get away with using a dolly, just strap it on real well - but a two person with one at the bottom case and the other at the cylinder head makes it manageable. I've never thought to weigh one, but it's got to be pushing 120 pounds without extraneous covers. I think it's 140ish total assembled weight.I better finish the assembly while my daughter is visiting
Good idea about the dolly. I have one that I use to push around my generator - I can use it on the flat areas.
Started to assemble the top end. I temporarily installed the rotor and stator in order to do the cam timing.
Next I installed a new center cam chain roller, base gasket and the pistons.
New o-rings on the base of the cylinders.
I supported one of the pistons to keep it from moving and installed the cylinder on one side. Small screwdriver was all that was needed to gently push the rings into the piston grooves and gently work the cylinder over the rings.
Repeat the procedure for the other piston. It went better than I thought it would go.
Next was to position the head and then thread the cam chain through the rollers. To provide some space, I took a piece of wood to prop up the cylinder head.
Got the timing marks all lined up as well as the LT mark on the rotor and then joined the cam chain with the master link. The joint was a little low on the sproket so I turned the rotor a bit to bring the link up to the middle of the cam sprocket. I had a old drill bit that I ground down to size so it would allow me to have something solid to peen the rivet. I gave the post a couple of sharp wraps with a center punch but it doesn't seem to be splaying the end out. Open to suggestions.
Next I installed a new center cam chain roller, base gasket and the pistons.
New o-rings on the base of the cylinders.
I supported one of the pistons to keep it from moving and installed the cylinder on one side. Small screwdriver was all that was needed to gently push the rings into the piston grooves and gently work the cylinder over the rings.
Repeat the procedure for the other piston. It went better than I thought it would go.
Next was to position the head and then thread the cam chain through the rollers. To provide some space, I took a piece of wood to prop up the cylinder head.
Got the timing marks all lined up as well as the LT mark on the rotor and then joined the cam chain with the master link. The joint was a little low on the sproket so I turned the rotor a bit to bring the link up to the middle of the cam sprocket. I had a old drill bit that I ground down to size so it would allow me to have something solid to peen the rivet. I gave the post a couple of sharp wraps with a center punch but it doesn't seem to be splaying the end out. Open to suggestions.
I've had good success with a punch ground to about a 45° profile tip as long as the link is solidly backed-up. I believe it was Tracks450 who used a stout bolt to back up his master link for staking. I've always had a second person hold a 2 lb hammer behind it. Or use one of those semi-fragile chain breaker/staking tools like the Stockton I bought from Amazon, but it had to be modified after it bent the first time I used it.
Thanks, I will recheck the angle on my punch, maybe the angle is not enough to flare the pin.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Looks like some great work being there and I am watching all this with great interest.
Got a heftier bolt as a back stop and managed to flare out the ends of the master link.
I then torqued down the head to 22ft/lbs in a criss cross pattern. Next was to lube the cam area and I also pumped oil into the camshafts. I installed the cam chain adjuster, adjusted the valves and set the static timing. I installed the cam covers and now it's ready to be moved to the garage for the frame installation.
I then torqued down the head to 22ft/lbs in a criss cross pattern. Next was to lube the cam area and I also pumped oil into the camshafts. I installed the cam chain adjuster, adjusted the valves and set the static timing. I installed the cam covers and now it's ready to be moved to the garage for the frame installation.
Master link looks good, everything looks great. I like to turn the engine over a little until the master link is off the sprocket and check it for free movement after staking the pins. I've never had one that ended up feeling like it was binding in any way, but I like to check anyway.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Looking good! Please be careful moving it to the garage and get help if you need it.
I checked the master link and there was still some side play with no kinking that I was able to detect. Rotated the engine several times while I was setting the valves and the timing.
Well it's been a while and not too much progress to share. Fiddled with a few odds and ends and realized the o-ring for the oil pump was not included in the gasket set. Checked my clutch springs and they were borderline spec. I put together another list of items that are still required and then ordered from DSS as he seemed to be the only one that had the o-ring.
While I'm waiting for the parts to arrive I decided once the engine is up from the basement it would be nice to not have to work on the ground. I can't justify buying a motorcycle lift and I have no place to store the lift in the winter as cars occupy the unheated garage. With scraps of wood I had laying around I built a platform that is about 7' long, 2' wide and 16" off the ground. When not in use I can stand it up on end and put it in the corner of the garage.
To assist with the trek from the basement to the garage I fabricated some "handles" to make it a bit easier. Piece of oak flooring for the front and 2x2" for the rear. Just need to to get the neighbour or my nephew to help lug it up the stairs.
While I'm waiting for the parts to arrive I decided once the engine is up from the basement it would be nice to not have to work on the ground. I can't justify buying a motorcycle lift and I have no place to store the lift in the winter as cars occupy the unheated garage. With scraps of wood I had laying around I built a platform that is about 7' long, 2' wide and 16" off the ground. When not in use I can stand it up on end and put it in the corner of the garage.
To assist with the trek from the basement to the garage I fabricated some "handles" to make it a bit easier. Piece of oak flooring for the front and 2x2" for the rear. Just need to to get the neighbour or my nephew to help lug it up the stairs.
Nice work, that looks plenty stout. The 450 engine is a big ol lump for sure.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Wish I had known you needed that O Ring as I have like 24 extra and would have sent you one or two. I too was missing one from my gasket set and ended up ordering from Orings and More. Much cheaper even though you have to order a minimum quantity. Some one in the forum mentioned them in a thread and it is a little bit of a pain to order as you have to go by size not part number. I also have a few other extra Orings I ordered so PM if you are missing something. The engine looks great and I wish i was where you are with my build. Yes find someone with lots of muscle to help haul the beast.
Thanks for the offer for the o-rings. I thinks I am pretty much ok for the other sizes as I ordered for the dip stick, drain plug and oil spinner.
wentwest
Veteran Member
I've slid a steel pipe through, across the head under the bridges in the head. You have to have the plugs out. Then one person on each end of the pipe and it's pretty manageable.