1979 CM400A Winter Rebuild [COMPLETE]

Maraakate said:
Yeah, but the thing is the book doesn't mention it, not even in the addendums. So it seems to be a sneaky change at some point.
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Well I was wrong. It's actually the 1980 year. And it was in the book. I just missed it. The reason I went back and looked was because I pulled the bolts from the spare head/cylinder that I received which I know was from a 1979. There was no rubbers. Looked at the book and it was there the whole time!

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No huge news to report. Too much going on today so didn't get a chance to ship those heads out yet. However, I did have a moment to change most of the images to my own hosting provider. I noticed with the size of the thread and the large amount of pictures it was hitting the forum connection limits and some images would load and others would not. I only bothered to do this for the actual tear down and not the earlier photos of me collecting parts. Let me know if there's some posts I missed.
 
Received the piston block holders, M6 tap for the starter clutch and the starter gear.
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@LongDistanceRider there is some waviness to the 450 gear. Is this acceptable amount of wear or should I look into finding another or seeing if @esh21167 could turn it for me? I believe he has the equipment and skills to do so but I will have to ask him.
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I'll see if Esh or Mike can do something about it if possible. In the mean time since I got the tap let's do the starter clutch.

Start by taking the clutch and torx bolts out (covered earlier) and spray carb cleaner in there to remove any oil. Do the torx bolts as well. Use some compressed air after the carb cleaner to remove any leftover.
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Put the new springs in the clutch and make sure they move in and out smoothly.
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Now place the caps on there. Notice the darker and smaller side with the tiny oil hole points OUT. I put a drop of assembly lube on the cap and test if it moves freely in the bore.
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Now the rollers, same deal a skim coat of assembly lube.
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Put a torx bolt in there and turn until it bottoms, mark the length and then tape up the tap so you go the same amount. Cover the area so metal chips don't go where you don't want it! Put grease on the tap and work it in. Be sure to pull it out after a couple of turns to remove chips off the tap.
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Clean everything all over again with carb cleaner and compressed air. Then mount the clutch. There is a dowel pin for alignment.
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Put some locktight on the torx bolts. Get each one about fingertight with a torx socket and extension.
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Torque value is 75-90 inch pounds. Again, use a 1/4" inch pounds torque wrench, not a 3/8" foot pounds.
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Additional things I can do in the meantime... removed the chrome covers off the rusty collector box and labelled them. Interestingly, the rubbers were missing. I ordered those a while back so not a big deal. Was assuming they would be junk anyways.

One thing to do is prep the valve cover itself. Usually I use grease to hold the gasket in place, but I've had some mechanics say they glue them on.

Now you have a few options there. Previously I used Gasgacinch and it worked fine. Other options are glue for window mouldings. This time I decided why not Hondabond? The original glue under there is stained similar to it and will hold it in place. Keep in mind, if you do this it's just to hold in the gasket in place. It's NOT to help promote a seal. DO NOT USE RTV SILICONE!!!

If you don't like this, disagree, or makes you uncomfortable... no problem, just put a skim coat of grease on both of sides of the gasket and watch during reassembly. That's how I used to do it.

OK, now with that warning. Remove the old glue as best as you can. I just use thinner on a rag. I don't really recommend sandpaper or scotch brite in this area as if it gets in the oil and then the camshaft that's big time trouble. So just do your best with the thinner, it'll be fine. After cleaning blow it off with compressed air to make sure residual thinner is gone and possibly any debris. Surface must be clean of oil and dry for any glue to work.
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Do a dry fit of your gasket. Take note that aftermarket valve cover gaskets probably won't fit right or may not cause a good seal. Also note my fingers on the left side of this picture. There are different lengths on the corners. So if it seems like it doesn't fit at all reverse it and make sure.
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Now take your glue of choice and spread it out on some cardboard and mix it up with an acid brush.
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Spread it on with the brush. Work quickly.
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Wipe excess off with your fingers and press the new gasket on. Keep a sharp eye on the corners and center of the gasket, they tend to lift up. Again, wipe off excess, inside and outside. Lay it down to let it finish setting up. Ideally let it sit overnight. And there you have it!
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I glue the gasket to the cover with Honda Bond. As soon as the cover is off I clean it, replace the gasket if it's the 5th time it would be reused or if there's been some leakage. After I have the gasket replaced I flip the cover right side up and add some weight to hold the gasket in place while the glue sets up to a degree. Do everything else I was planning and put the cover on last.
 
Yeah I put some weight on it and checked on it this evening. It's glued on there pretty well. For these bikes it's not really necessary as it's not too hard (slightly annoying) to get it on without gluing, but I've done it so many times over the years.

So I got bored after all that and figured I'd do a test run of the balancer chain setup. Matching the front line and the crank line isn't that hard. But then you have to put the front slipper under the chain, then take the holder push everything up and some how manage the rear balancer at the same time. That's tricky itself, but the trickier part seems to be finding the height at which the rear balancer would be. I should make a cardboard cut out or something for that. I found the first time I was about 3 teeth off. Let the front slipper drop, completely loosened the tensioner then rotated the rear balancer 3 teeth or so and back together again. Now 1 tooth off.

No big deal, just was curious what to expect when it's time. It's like what you and Bill said previously about that rear balancer and the front slipper throwing it off. An unfortunate design, otherwise the rebuild has been pretty simple.
 
Also, you're really getting 5 uses out of it? I'm lucky to get 2. Maybe 3. I've since decided it's not worth taking a chance and have been slowly hoarding them. You really have to inspect them if you're going to reuse them because they can get small cracks around the corners and in the middle of the gasket it kind of "puffs out" for lack of proper terms. If that part is flat it's no good anymore. As an experiment I tried faking it with a little bit of Hylomar once to see if it would work and it didn't. Can't cheat it; must replace. I will say that's one of the things I like about the 550... it's simple o-rings on the inspection covers. Someday we will be at the mercy of aftermarket vendors and hopefully they can make good ones. The OEM ones are made differently. It's softer. The aftermarket ones I've tried in the past always seem to be a bit too large. I've given up on the aftermarket ones a number of years ago.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
Oh, the fun of the balancer timing. :D :D:ROFLMAO:
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The whole thing is kind of funny. There is one tip I have found while doing this. There is a dot on the gears (both 400 and 450 balancers) this is for when it's pointing up and leveled with the case. This helps with the front balancer because you'll never see the marks. This does mean if you decided to keep the 400 balancer and service it with new dampeners you need to pay attention to how you put the gear back in to make things easier for you.

I think if I made an "L" of some kind by taking measurements that lays perpendicular to the case (similar to a float height adjustment tool) that it would remove the second guessing involved with the rear balancer. That seems to be the biggest issue. You hold it up, making sure nothing else moves, and just hope and pray you're holding at the spot where it ends up. You think you're good and goof around putting the holder back on and then you end up a tooth off.

Otherwise, I did talk to esh last night he can turn that starter gear for me. So I will drop that off from him this evening in addition to leaving one of my rotors with him to resurface.
 
Yes, I'll make sure he knows. If it doesn't work out I'll just source another one. It should be doable I believe because you can't really feel any wear. Unlike my original, which is incredibly bad.

I realized another thing with the balancer adjustment. I forgot to mention, that at least on the 450 shaft (same part number as 400) the clip is also related to the punch mark. So trying to figure out 10 oclock from that side isn't that bad. I noticed, and everyone here will boo and hiss (rightly so), the Clymer book shows the rear balancer lined up, but resting on the slipper. I then looked at the FSM, it does show the same thing, but the angle is poor. So maybe this is the secret. Attached are photos from both books.

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Some may be mad at me for this one, but this is the reason I keep aftermarket service manuals around. Sometimes the FSM just has poor quality pictures.

Another thing I dislike with both books is that they state to align the marks to the crankcase and/or holder. This is a bit confusing, what it really means is that the lines are PARALLEL to these surfaces. If you actually tried to line it up with marks at the surfaces it clearly won't work, there will be an angle. At least with the front balancer and the crankshaft itself. Rear balancer does line up with the holder when it's correct.
 
Disinformation or inaccuracies are the main reasons I'm not fond of aftermarket manuals, but they all have something of value. And if the pictures of components are better in one than the other then so be it, no reason to be upset in any way. It isn't like Honda's earlier manuals were well known for clarity and spectacular pictures.
 
ancientdad said:
Disinformation or inaccuracies are the main reasons I'm not fond of aftermarket manuals, but they all have something of value. And if the pictures of components are better in one than the other then so be it, no reason to be upset in any way. It isn't like Honda's earlier manuals were well known for clarity and spectacular pictures.
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Right, I agree. I just know it's a controversial topic and people here and elsewhere get very upset if you even own such a book. That any credibility you have is now lost. Similar to use of RTV.

You're absolutely right though, some pictures are incredibly poor. Not just the angles, but sometimes they're too dark and it's not because scanning resolution. I own the actual book, not a copy, and you can't even see the crankshaft mark in the picture. You can kind of make it out if you shine a bright LED flashlight over it. The CB500/CB550 is also kind of poor in some of it's pictures.
 
Hopefully they got better with later models' manuals. But it won't help some of the older ones that have typos, omissions and bad pics.
 
Well, in the past 15 minutes I just tried this method. This is the secret. However, it must naturally rest there with little tension. It needs to be somewhat taut. If you do this, then sneak the front slipper under the chain and bring the holder up, put the forward bolt in the holder to bring the slipper up with it it all lines up.

So I will give credit to Clymer for a better angle that made it a 15 minute thing instead of an hour long adventure of goofing around.
 
ancientdad said:
Hopefully they got better with later models' manuals. But it won't help some of the older ones that have typos, omissions and bad pics.
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There's actually typos in the FSM that the machinist discovered in regards to piston clearances for the 400 twins.
 
Dealer called me. I ordered both gaskets for the collector box and the heatshield washers. I'll be needing these for the new collector coming from DSS. I did not bother with new clamps just yet. My old ones are a bit rusty on the pipes to collector, but at $40/ea I'll wait for another time. Not too hard to loosen the bolt and swap it to a new one.

As always, I have a semi-standing order for a valve cover gasket, valve cover bolt grommets, and oil filter each week. I think I'm up to about 10 valve covers and 10 sets of grommets. Sounds silly, but I want to keep it running as long as I can and these parts will disappear someday and it's only going to get more expensive as time marches forward. I know there's others on this forum that have done the same for "consumables" for their particular model. Never really thought I'd be that guy, but here we are.
 
Maraakate said:
Dealer called me. I ordered both gaskets for the collector box and the heatshield washers. I'll be needing these for the new collector coming from DSS. I did not bother with new clamps just yet. My old ones are a bit rusty on the pipes to collector, but at $40/ea I'll wait for another time. Not too hard to loosen the bolt and swap it to a new one.

As always, I have a semi-standing order for a valve cover gasket, valve cover bolt grommets, and oil filter each week. I think I'm up to about 10 valve covers and 10 sets of grommets. Sounds silly, but I want to keep it running as long as I can and these parts will disappear someday and it's only going to get more expensive as time marches forward. I know there's others on this forum that have done the same for "consumables" for their particular model. Never really thought I'd be that guy, but here we are.
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Better take another hard look at those muffler clamps. You're not going to loosen the bolt and swap w/o disassembly
 
I'm lucky. They're fine. Just the bolts looked kind of crappy from years of road dirt.

Did an official tally. 7 valve covers, 7 sets of grommets and 7 oil filters. Not including the ones being used for this rebuild.
 
Been busy! Just picked up this 85 LeBaron Convertible from Virginia on Saturday. No thread yet, but I'll be sure to make one. Actually runs, needs a lot of TLC. To be expected as my Dad negotiated it from a salvage yard and basically bought it for the same value as scrap.

Anyways, if you're going to be in this hobby all-out then you also become a certified shipper! It adds up quick.
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Labelled these for the guy. Curious which is better.

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Hacky, but these are free...
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Spare rockers.
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My rockers, labelled L and R on the appropriate sides. I'll forget.
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In case YOU (or me) forget. Here is how you tell. See that groove in the center? If it's pointing to the right it goes on the left. Vice-versa.
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Making pillows...
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Three "pillows" in here and about $15 of bubble wrap.
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I ran out of bubble wrap and tape for the spare head. Will ship these tomorrow and grab the additional supplies and ship that as well.
 
Esh texted me to let me know there was less than 0.0005" irregularity on the gear journal. He figured it wouldn't cause any issue, but skimmed 0.002" off. He said it cut pretty easy. Looks good.
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Once the rotor is done being resurfaced I'll pick all of this up and get the cases back together and in the frame. Shipping parts to machinist in about 45 minutes.
 
Officially shipped the two heads, two cams and sets of rockers. Will be there Friday.

Additionally, my friend from France has finally had time (he was overseas for a month) to ship that oil cooler gasket. So now I have a spare. I will see if Clauss Studios can replicate it. I think he probably can. Clauss messaged me last week and said he received my NOS sidecover grommet and is working on duplicating it now and I should get some samples in a few weeks.
 
I figured a good thing to do in the mean time is make some marks with a sharpie for the balancer chain alignment in regards to links and the gears so I don't have to goof around later when I put the starter gear and cam chain on.

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Black sharpie on the front gear is where the dot is located for the center. You can see it on the 450 gear. It's on the 400 gears, but the housing obscures it. Since I've torn the balancer gears open I fully agree with Jim to use the 450 ones. With the mess it left behind in the bottom of the crankcase, the price of the rubbers, and a possibly dangerous situation of destroying the chain and/or gear (I saw an old HT thread with this problem!) there's no reason to use the 400 gears any more. Just get the 450 ones used and never worry about it ever again.
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Got the aftermarket collector from DSS. So here's the deal... it does have some turns in there, it does not have the baffles inside it. So it might be a little bit louder, won't know until I'm done. The left side heat shield screw holes line up correctly, the right side is off by a few mm. You can force it to work. The paint on it is not the correct paint. It's similar to that crappy prep powder I saw on bumpers in the body shop. So you will have to spray some VHT or BBQ paint on it, but only after you remove the coating with some thinner and then scuff it. I'll do that and get some pictures later for everyone.

It's an OK deal at $100, not the best. But then again, where are you going to find a good one? All of them rotted out, falling apart, and the screws are totally seized for the heat shields.
 
Question: lot of VHT products out there. I assume I want the "Flame Proof" one or is that overkill? This doesn't appear to be direct to metal stuff so you also have to use their primer.
 
Just the paint directly? No need for primer? I'm used to Rustoluem stuff where you can just spray it right on and holds up OK. But I hear good things about VHT.
 
Well, doesn't say on their site. Guess I'll have to buy the can to find out.

Anyways, here's some pictures.

Borescope on the inside of the original (Jim probably knows all this, but so others know). Muffler plates on the inside.
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Inside of the aftermarket one. It does curve to the right.
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Left side fits fine.
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This particular screw had to be screwed in at angle for the right side, but it does work.
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Header to collector a bit longer than the original. Don't think this will hurt anything.
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Muffler to collector about the same length.
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Scuffs as-is and some light surface rust.
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My hands after simply handling it from the odd powder primer stuff.
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Scuffs off incredibly easy with practically no pressure with red scotch brite. This indicates it's that same crappy primer stuff used on aftermarket bumpers and is really just a protectant not a primer or a paint. Note the surface rust underneath.
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Is it usable? Yes. Would I buy it again? Probably not. I'll use it for now until I can find a decent used one. I did let DSS know about it. I'm not demanding or expecting a refund, but they should know about this so they can complain to their supplier.
 
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Yes, I think it will work fine. Might be a touch bit louder, I can live with that depending on the exhaust note.

I did let DSS know about the previous post with pictures. They are passing it along to their supplier, but they doubt it will make a difference. However, they did partially refund me. Nice of them, as I wasn't expecting or asking for a refund.
 
I'm impressed that these power chambers have been reproduced at all. No mean feat, I'm sure. The fact that the internals closely resemble the original crossover is pretty cool. For a C note, that ain't bad.
I remember doing mine (it looked about like yours), spending a couple hours with an aggressive knotted wire wheel on an angle grinder, worrying that the rust had made holes in it, then 2 days soaking in a tub of vinegar, finally multiple coats of barbeque paint. No holes, that is some thick metal. A lot of work but it' seems good still. IIRC, the heat shield screws did require drilling and tapping to clear the threads, then I got some longer stainless pan heads and also some stainless washers to give better support to the thin shield metal on both sides. I also had to hammer the pipe flanges back to round over a 1 1/4 inch ID water pipe and weld a couple cracks, then found some graphite sleeves from Caltric or Uxcell by dimension.
 
The problem with my chamber is that where the pipes plug into the collector have rotted off. The "body" of it is rusty, but in good shape.
 
Maraakate said:
The problem with my chamber is that where the pipes plug into the collector have rotted off. The "body" of it is rusty, but in good shape.
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It's nice you found an option to avoid having to attempt the possibly impossible. I'd probably keep it just to try.
 
Machinist should be receiving the parts today. I did order VHT Flame Proof Flat Black Paint and VHT Flame Proof Gray Primer. Should be here Monday then I'll get all that nasty stuff off and respray it. Hoping to pick up the gear and rotor from esh over the next few days and get the case back together and on the bike.
 
In what may really be one of the last available Oil Cooler gaskets I now have this extra. It will be sent off somewhere for duplication so we can finally have these available again for anyone with a Hondamatic or CM450 series.

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Huge thanks to a fellow video game collector in France who went out of his very busy schedule to do me this favour.
 
Got that VHT Flameproof Primer and Flat Black and wow! I am very impressed! This is the real deal, like spraying 30PSI HVLP out of an NR2000. Really great product for the price. Rustoluem is a complete joke compared to this. And for a few dollars more, it's pretty much a no-brainer. It definitely has roots in the paint industry, it has the right spray tip that they use if you get solvent paint in a can from a paint suppler... it even mentions to prep with red scotch brite and actual wax and grease remover. The correct way. Amazing.

OK, enough with the glowing review... start off by putting on your 3M respirator, a serious warning as this is the real stuff with the isocyanates.
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Take some red scotch brite and dip it in some paint thinner and remove this offensive coating.
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Removed.
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Per the instructions, and this is truly a critical step. Use wax and grease remover on the part. Keep using new rags until it comes up clean. In a pinch you can use mineral spirits.
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Spray light, even coats. This is just like spraying solvent out of a gun so don't try to make it totally wet. Do a coat, wait about 2-3 minutes for it to flash off or mostly flash off then do the next coat. I know the instructions say 10 minutes, but this is likely to prevent people from being silly and going overboard on a coat. I did 3 coats because I'm paranoid, but honestly you can get away with 2 good coats.
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No pictures here, but after this was dry to the touch I flipped it over and did the other side.

They want you to wait 30 minutes before sanding or painting. You CAN force dry it with a heatgun on medium heat at low speed. Don't go any higher, and don't hang out in one spot. Touch a spot somewhere to see if it feels dry. If it looks dry but feels "rubbery" it's not ready. OK, now you're satisfied or waited the 30 minutes now do your colour. Again, light and even coats here. Same deal, 3 coats.
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Dry on this side.
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Flipped it over after it was dry and did the other side.
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Turned out great! Looks way better than before.
 
Per my request out of curiosity the machinist had time to look at the rockers, holders, and cams. Here's the results:

In-service Rockers and Holders: Most adjusting screws pitted, one rocker wear pad worn excessively.
Spare Rockers and Holders: Exhaust adjusting screws pitted, rest is good.
In-service Cam: Fair shape, end journals show scoring.
Spare Cam: Very good overall, appears to be from a low-mileage bike.

He mentioned both cams are totally usable and so are the rockerboxes. He said with the in-service cam having some scoring is likely not enough to be a problem, and not really indicative of any specific issue, but since I have the spare in much better condition it makes sense to use it.

He will be looking into the heads soon and I will update on the results. He will pull one of the valves off the in-service head to inspect for the amount of recession. We're replacing all of this anyways, including the adjusting screws (thanks to Tom and Jim for mentioning this should be a part of any rebuild), but I am a curious person and like to get an idea of what kind of wear to expect at X amount of miles. Especially when there is very little documentation to this effect on these bikes.

Good to know that everything was still more or less in good, re-usable shape. Especially considering the mileage and there's probably been a few times in my younger days with lack of staying on top of the oil level.
 
For the curious from the machinist:

Valve recession is almost non-existent. These valves escaped the soft-valve period. Two of the four intakes show just perceptible recession, but the other two and the exhaust show none. However, all of the original valves show severe tip wear. The valves in the spare head do not. Valve guide wear is none-to-very slight. The wear of the guides in the spare head is exactly the same, so you can see what this means. You don't need them.
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All in all, normal wear. We'll be using my original head since that one has no broken fins. The spare will be kept there so I can have an additional head done some day in the future so I can have two good ones and I think that should last me my lifetime.

So it appears the weak points on this engine at this amount of mileage would be the balancer dampeners, balancer chain, cam chain and slippers and the starter clutch. Pretty impressive to me.
 
Got the gear back from @esh21167 a little earlier because it's getting cold outside quick and wanted to get things in the frame. I didn't take as many pictures this time because it's just getting cold out.

Remove the crank holder, be mindful for the dowel pins, but they'll likely be stuck there anyways from all the oil. Remove the crank. Slide the new timing chain over it as well as the starter gear and new seal. Very important to not forget the new seal.
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As discussed previously, line up the weights, then allow the the rear balancer to naturally rest and then I slide the slipper under it while making sure nothing moves. I did loosen the tensioner slightly because you may find the rear balancer just simply won't make it but will be very close. When you get this far I use the front 10mm bolt for the slipper to start bringing the chain up. You can't use the rear bolt yet because that's for the strainer.
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Clean the plain bearing areas on the crank, the case, and the holder. Put assembly lube on all these pieces. Check your work with the balancer. I just leave the bolts sitting where they go to check, as long as it's flush.
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Put it together, torque the 14mm bolts to 24-27 ft/lbs per the FSM. There is a sequence to this so make sure to check the FSM on this. I would torque in the pattern to about 15 ft/lbs, then to 27 ft/lbs. Do the 10mm bolts after this. Spin the crank a bit back and forth make sure it's not binding. It should not be if you cleaned, lubed, and torqued everything properly.

Don't forget that seal!
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Before you put the oil strainer back on you have to replace the o-ring on it.
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I loosen the front 10mm bolt for the slipper, then put the oil strainer on and get the slipper tightened. Then torque all 10mm bolts to about ~110 in/lbs.

Don't forget to replace the large double o-ring gasket thing.
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Everything is on. Now organize your case bolts, be sure to leave a copy of the FSM laying out with the bolt lengths so you don't get confused. Make sure the cases are clean.

EDIT 11-03-2023: IF YOU FOLLOWED THIS BEFORE THIS DATE I APPLIED THE HONDABOND INCORRECTLY AND RE-DID IT. THE FOLLOWING IS HOW TO DO IT.

Take some Hondabond on your fingers and spread it on the bottom of the case.
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Put the cases together. Watch to make sure things are aligning. They should because of the dowel pins. Put the bolts in, then start getting all the bolts finger tight. Then torque all 10mms to about 115 in/lbs working around to do it evenly. The 12mm bolt is 15-22 ft/lbs. Don't forget a new oil filter and tighten the drain plug with a new washer.
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Flip it over, put towels in there to prevent dirt from falling into the crankcase. I put the front bracket on engine loosely to help align things. Put down a bunch of wood on your jack and get it in there. Get the bolts finger tight, leave the the engine still supported under the jack. Remove the front bracket temporarily so you can fish the starter wire and oil cooler wire through. Lube the new o-ring on the starter. Install the starter. Will be "fun" because of the new o-ring you installed on it. 2 bolts for the starter. I ended up using a rubber mallet, gently, to get it to go in. Add the front bracket back on, but leave it very loose, fish the starter wire through it.
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For the oil pump add the new o-ring, grease it and bolt it up. 5 bolts total, two for the oil pressure sensor cover and three for the oil cooler itself. Now you can add the front bracket on, fish the sensor wire through the front bracket. Finally tighten then engine mount bolts. 14mms to 33-43 ft/lbs and 12mms to 15-22 ft/lbs.
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Remove the jack. Double check your torque on the oil filter and oil drain bolt.

I spent time adding the stator/rotor, oil pump chain, kickstarter and gear shift stuff back on and connecting wires, but no pictures. Will get some later. So far everything is going well.
 
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Your Honda Bond application is way thick. This is not a gasket making procedure, it's a sealing of the machined surfaces and only needs a very thin smear to accomplish that. A 1/32" bead would be perfect but can't be done with the squeeze tube. You're only sealing the machining marks of the case surfaces. The excess Honda Bond will eventually breakdown in the oil but if there's a lot floating around it'll collect on the pickup screen.
Paper towels tend to leave lots of paper dust/debris behind which will wash away once the engine is running. Down side is the amount produced can block the pickup screen They're fine for cleaning your hands or parts but after the part is cleaned the debris has to be washed off with a solvent, carb or brake clean, etc.
Here's the result of the balancer rubbers completely disintegrated.
201_4221.JPG
 
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