1979 CM400A Winter Rebuild [COMPLETE]

The cylinders look like they'll work out good for you. Cam and rockers look pretty good so that's a plus. That adjuster screw is typical of the wear and has to be replaced, check all the others because likely they're close to the same.
One thing to look at with the rockers is the arc of the cam pad, should be an even arc.
 
The cylinders look like they'll work out good for you. Cam and rockers look pretty good so that's a plus. That adjuster screw is typical of the wear and has to be replaced, check all the others because likely they're close to the same.
One thing to look at with the rockers is the arc of the cam pad, should be an even arc.

I'm going to have the machinist make the determination as I'm not really qualified to tell. I suspect with the amount of miles on mine and how well it runs mine may be a better candidate. But absolute worst case scenario the cams (which are also unique to Hondamatics) can be sourced. I'd hate to do that, but again that whole cost of performance thing... :lol:

I'll be shipping the parts to the machinist in about a month to start going over if I need to do something about cams and rockers that way I am not surprised in 3-4 months.
 
I'm going to have the machinist make the determination as I'm not really qualified to tell. I suspect with the amount of miles on mine and how well it runs mine may be a better candidate. But absolute worst case scenario the cams (which are also unique to Hondamatics) can be sourced. I'd hate to do that, but again that whole cost of performance thing... :lol:

I'll be shipping the parts to the machinist in about a month to start going over if I need to do something about cams and rockers that way I am not surprised in 3-4 months.
I was shocked when at @50K my cylinders and pistons were still in serviceable spec. I'm still running the original ones to this day. Only change made besides new rings was to send the pistons off to get a ceramic top coating and low friction coating on the skirts by SwainTech
 
Jim, you brought up a good point that the tappet adjustment screws need replaced during a rebuild. I've since added them to the spreadsheet. This brings up the total amount needed in parts to $530. Thanks for the reminder.
 
Yeah, after seeing some others here with badly worn tappet adjusters it would be a good idea to just replace all yours while you're there.
 
To anyone following this, I got the MCM o-rings today for the insulators. They are a correct fit. Way cheaper than Honda and you'll have plenty if you need to R&I more than you should... I actually think it's easier to remove the whole carb assembly with the insulators still attached, but hate doing so because the price of the o-rings.

I'll post this info in the carb rebuild and carb o-ring threads.
 
Ordered the Intake Valves, Intake Valve Seals, Valve Cover Gasket and Torque Converter Outer Cover.

I realized if I'm going to be taking the starter motor out might as well do the brushes. Added that to the list.

Total remaining is $332. Once I have the parts delivered then I can send things off for inspection.
 
Stopped off at DSS yesterday to drop the CDIs off and they had my Intake Valves sitting there for me. Took them home with me, compared sizes, they're correct.

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Waiting on the Intake Seals to show up and then I can send things off.
 
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Base Gasket and the Bottom End Gasket Kit which contains the unobtanium Oil Cooler gaskets.

I don't need that clutch cover gasket, whoever wants it and wants to pay shipping PM me.

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I allways removed the insulators with the carbs . Never once had a problem with the o-rings. Sounds like everything is going great. I had one 400 A that the PO had really messed up the bolts on the carb mount. I ended up sawing the insulator off to get to the bolts. Bummer.

Bill H
 
I allways removed the insulators with the carbs . Never once had a problem with the o-rings. Sounds like everything is going great. I had one 400 A that the PO had really messed up the bolts on the carb mount. I ended up sawing the insulator off to get to the bolts. Bummer.

Bill H

I replace them anyways out of general principle, but yes I have re-used them before. Now that I found MCM o-rings that fit it's not an issue to replace them every single time.

Years back I went to tighten the left side carb insulator and had a dab of anti-seize and the threads got ruined. I tapped it to the next size. It fits fine, works fine. Just don't use anti-seize in that area. Kind of unnecessary anyways. I've since stopped using it because of how easy it is to over-torque. Also, the carb insulator bolts are relatively tiny and don't need to be that tight on there.
 
Cam Chain, Cam Chain Tensioner, Cam Chain Guide and Starter Motor Brush Set ordered. Added some additional things to the list like the 450 balancers. Some with prices if available, but others will have to be eBay.

What's left? Balancer Chain, 450 Balancer Stuff, Cam Chain Sprocket, and Tappet Adjusting Screws.

Total remaining (not including eBay stuff) is $132!
 
Updated the cosmetic/nice-to-have part of the spread sheet. This is factored into it's own total. I don't have all the nuts and bolts as I'm not sitting in front of the bike currently. But, let's assume ~$100 each for the larger parts such as the headers, exhaust collector, fenders, etc. for any eBay/Forum Wanted sales. Add the paint work in, with me slipping one of the old body shops I worked at a $50... Easily $1500-$2000. I will not be doing any of that this year, except some small pieces here and there if I have some extra money/time. After this rebuild I want to focus on an engine rebuild of the CB550K and then I will return to any cosmetic stuff after both bikes are mechanically sound. There is zero point on looking flashy if the engine health is mediocre/bad in my opinion. Get that engine correct first, ride it around with new consumables, put a couple of oil change intervals on it and do the fine tuning. Make sure it's perfect before you worry about how it looks.

With that said... what does it take to do a complete rebuild, parts replacement of consumables (chain, tires, grommets, bushings, etc.) and obsessively replacing nuts and bolts that the world can see when parked, and respray of a 400 Twin? I'd say about $4000-$5000. This includes shipping, and you getting screwed on some pieces that take a while to find and you have no choice but to pay a ridiculous price. Add more if you plan on doing a seat cover, lens replacement, painting the frame (won't be doing this). Then you're getting into $5500-$6000 territory. Add a few hundred more if you want to replace/restore bouncy speedos and tachs. Add another $60 for a battery.

If you want to go all out nuts factor in a CDI, stator rewind, completely redoing the harness by hand with the proper colours connectors, new ignition coil with wires and caps, bulbs... Add another $800-$1000. Now you're looking at $7000. Maybe a bit more if you feel you must replace the turn signal relay and rec/reg and solenoid. Now closer to $7200-$7300. So let's be nice, add some realistic fudge room and just round up for all the shipping costs... $8000.

Could even cost more than that if you need to find a good engine because your crank and cam shafts are shot. Add even more if you get the carbs rebuilt professionally. More if you send the entire bike to a professional. Now we're looking at $10,000... maybe more. Let's be fair, say $11,000-$12,000 so you're not surprised when the keys are handed to you.

This sounds like a lot, but it's still cheaper than buying a lot of new bikes out there.

Is it worth it? To me, yes. I like this bike a lot. Been through a lot of adventures with it. I know I will NEVER get back what I put into it. These bikes are not investment. Antique car guys learned the hard way when putting $20-$50K into their cars and got upset that nobody would pay $90K or even $30K.

You can easily buy one in great condition for about ~$2000, and then factor in a total engine rebuild, including new insulator and air box bands, insulator o-rings, and the rubber pieces of the carb... you're looking at about $4000-$5000 total. You can save and cut corners if you're simply doing a top end.

PS: This assumes OEM parts. No sense in going all out and then getting aftermarket. Exceptions to this would be the ignition coil (unless you really must have NOS), spark wires and caps, air cut off valves and fuel accelerator pump, carb passage plugs, chain, sprockets, tires and tubes. If you insist on finding an NOS ignition coil, CDI (highly recommend you don't do this as capacitors are "use it or lose it" just like a battery), stator/rotor, air cut off valves, fuel accelerator pump, buying the carb rebuild kits NOS to get the Honda passage plugs, somehow source an original NOS rear sprocket (good luck) then all bets are off. I'd say now $14,000-$15,000 if you can find this stuff.
 
Cam Chain, Cam Chain Tensioner, Cam Chain Guide and Starter Motor Brush Set have shown up today from DSS. All are the correct parts.

Nothing super fun, but I like when they come with the bin sheets. I have a few. More fun when they tell you where it came from. This one they cut part of it off, but still neat to me.

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It is cool to see the original Honda parts labels, brings back many memories for me of getting new parts for jobs as a dealership mechanic, or working in the parts room later on. That's what made me keep the freight tag from the crate my new CL450K4 came in.

View attachment 23887
 
Balancer Chain and Cam shaft sprocket ordered. Sent an offer on eBay for a complete (minus the slipper) CM450 sealed balancer weight assembly.

All that is left is the tappet adjusting screws.
 
Seller accepted my offer, got it for $20. Not bad. All that's left is those tappet screws!

Will be sending the cylinder out soon enough for the machine work. I will hold off on that head. Upon closer inspection two fins were damaged. I'll probably wait until winter to send my current running one out for the work.
 
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Balancer Chain and Camshaft Sprocket have arrived from Mr. Silver. For the curious, you may be able to source the balancer chain at significant savings by looking for these markings found on the box: DID219T 68L, S219#-L128. I have found one for $31 (adjusted from Yen to USD) from Japanese vendors. Factoring in shipping, this is about the same cost from DSS.
 
Balancer Chain and Camshaft Sprocket have arrived from Mr. Silver. For the curious, you may be able to source the balancer chain at significant savings by looking for these markings found on the box: DID219T 68L, S219#-L128. I have found one for $31 (adjusted from Yen to USD) from Japanese vendors. Factoring in shipping, this is about the same cost from DSS.

Damn, you could almost make 2 of them from one DID 219T 128 link DOHC 450 cam chain.
 
Damn, you could almost make 2 of them from one DID 219T 128 link DOHC 450 cam chain.

If I had a riveting tool, yes. Which I don't. Not yet...

Also ordered the tappet adjustment screws. All parts are now ordered. At this point things will slow down with updates.
 
If I had a riveting tool, yes. Which I don't. Not yet...

You really don't need one when you buy the Honda stake-type master link that I use on all 450 cam chains, it's easy to accomplish with a hammer, punch and something to back it up.
 
You really don't need one when you buy the Honda stake-type master link that I use on all 450 cam chains, it's easy to accomplish with a hammer, punch and something to back it up.

Ah, OK. I have no experience in making endless chains. Something I should learn if I want to work on more bikes and especially for other people. In my list of "tools I plan to own over the next year" the DID 520/530/etc breaker and riveter tool is one of them. No idea what I'd need for cam chains/balancer chains. When I talked to Mike about it he said he had modified tools for this purpose.

This it a bit OT, but also kind of ON Topic... I have been amassing better, more professional tools this past two years. Just yesterday picked up a 12 Gallon 3HP air compressor for $50. Needs a new hose, which is ordered. Plan on using this with the leakdown tester and posting results.

That would be a whole separate thread unto itself... nice tools that I want to own in order to do more professional and more in-depth work on these bikes. A few off the top of my head... genuine Kowa T-Handle set, Kowa/Honda bearing and race driver sets, the piston ring compressors for various sizes, 1/2" air impact for those stubborn rotor bolts and possibly any frame related mounts, parts washer (the ones with a pump and brush, not ultrasonic), EGA, Boehm Carb Sync Tool (may be happening this year with connections from job), two stroke leak down tester (yes, you could build one, but I don't want to), Kowa Steering Stem Nut tools of various sizes (Mike says the aftermarket ones are not made well enough to properly do very tight torque to fix wobble on larger bikes), v-blocks, bench grinder, inner and outer mics of high quality. There's probably more I'm forgetting. But I think this is the nice stuff to have if you want to do a professional job, which is what I want to do in my spare time for others.
 
Ah, OK. I have no experience in making endless chains. Something I should learn if I want to work on more bikes and especially for other people. In my list of "tools I plan to own over the next year" the DID 520/530/etc breaker and riveter tool is one of them. No idea what I'd need for cam chains/balancer chains. When I talked to Mike about it he said he had modified tools for this purpose.

I bought the then-$80 Stockton chain tool for cam chains, was supposed to both break and rivet them, and the first time I used it to break a 450 cam chain the tip bent. I've since seen the same tool and plastic case it came in marketed by a couple other sellers including Motion Pro (only difference was the color of the plastic, blue vs red) so I'd consider them to be the same quality. I ended up modifying the tip of the 'breaker' part of it to better use as a riveting tool as the design it came with that function wasn't really suited to the 219T chain as I'd expected. Ground to a semi-blunt point, the breaker tip works pretty well as a staking/riveting tip but since I could do the same thing with a hammer and punch, it seemed like a waste of money. This is hammer and punch results on a 450 cam chain

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CM450 balancer/single assembly balancer showed up today. Looks good. I will say the weights feel heavier than the rubber dampener versions. I haven't weighed them to be sure, but I will later out of curiosity.
 
So first off, I'm apparently not good at guessing weight :lol:.

CM400 balancers, including the circlip and cover: ~555 grams
CM450 balancers: ~495g grams.

60 grams difference and the originals are heavier.

Jim, did you notice if the bike is smoother in regards to vibration with the 450/single piece balancers?

A few other small things I noticed is that there are alignment punch marks on the 450 balancer sprockets. This probably makes installation easier.
 
So first off, I'm apparently not good at guessing weight :lol:.

CM400 balancers, including the circlip and cover: ~555 grams
CM450 balancers: ~495g grams.

60 grams difference and the originals are heavier.

Jim, did you notice if the bike is smoother in regards to vibration with the 450/single piece balancers?

A few other small things I noticed is that there are alignment punch marks on the 450 balancer sprockets. This probably makes installation easier.
I can't honestly say that it's smoother or rougher. By the time I did mine the rubbers on the old ones were gone so the 2 halves were banging back and forth, almost sounded like a rod knock at times. Interesting that the 450's are lighter considering the additional mass of the larger pistons, pins and rods. I expected heavier.
 
All parts are officially here. So in the mean time, I figured I can practice removing the gasket material off the crankcase from that seized CB400T engine. The machinist will be removing gasket material for me on the head and cylinder.

What I did was buy some sharpening stone blocks. Comes in 320, 800, 1000, 5000.

First I removed material with a razor blade, carefully. Any hardened material on there I left on it as the 320 will knock it down.

I then took some water with a drop of dish soap, sprayed the stone and started a go at it with the 320.

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Looks pretty good, but let's take a sharpie and find high/low spots.

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More 320

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Now I moved onto 800. I did experiment earlier with 1000 and 5000, but it takes a very long time and quite frankly I don't think it was worth the effort to get the perfect mirror finish.

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Now, I sanded this like I would in the body shop. That is, always keeping it wet and going in one direction for a while, then the opposite direction. Always letting the stone "lead/guide" you. Not pushing down on it and forcing it.

I think it looks pretty decent, enough to be clean and be good for a gasket. What do you think?
 
I draw filed the surface with a fine file . High- low spots show up pretty quick. I scraped them clean then draw filed them and put them together. Never had an oil leak on any gasket .. Looks clean enough to me as long as its flat.

Bill H
 
Thanks. OK, yeah I figured anything higher than red/320 is overkill. And yes, on the real deal I will be covering the oil jet passageways and obviously be doing this with just the case so I don't risk getting the crank dirty, etc.
 
Thanks. OK, yeah I figured anything higher than red/320 is overkill. And yes, on the real deal I will be covering the oil jet passageways and obviously be doing this with just the case so I don't risk getting the crank dirty, etc.
The oil jet will come out by using 2 screwdrivers on opposite side to gently pry and wiggle it out. Reinstall is just tap back in firmly. I figured since it was only a trial run I didn't need to mention those.
 
The oil jet will come out by using 2 screwdrivers on opposite side to gently pry and wiggle it out. Reinstall is just tap back in firmly. I figured since it was only a trial run I didn't need to mention those.

I practiced the oil jet with a small flathead and could get it to rise up but couldn't quite grab it out. I also noticed it was starting to mar the surface around it so I stopped. I was thinking instead I could put a high e guitar string or something in the jet to prevent debris, then blow everything off with light compressed air, and verify flow with carb cleaner/etc.
 
I practiced the oil jet with a small flathead and could get it to rise up but couldn't quite grab it out. I also noticed it was starting to mar the surface around it so I stopped. I was thinking instead I could put a high e guitar string or something in the jet to prevent debris, then blow everything off with light compressed air, and verify flow with carb cleaner/etc.
Good plan.
 
I don't have pictures right now as I'm done goofing around out there for the evening, but the cylinder head... it's really difficult to get some of that off. I grabbed that totally junk CB400T head and tried 320 on it for quite a while and where those "divets" are from the head gasket they actually appear like they are in the metal surface. It's kind of hard to explain. Anyways, I kept at it for like 20 minutes, constantly oiling the stone and wiping off excess frequently. Could never fully get it off. Since it's a piece of junk head I cheated with some 120 for about 5 minutes. This helped, but still couldn't even get it all off.

Someone else is cleaning up my heads for me, so it's not a huge deal. But I am curious what do you do in a situation like that?
 
I use the little green dremel wheels to get the gasket off and do a surface sand on a plate glass with a sheet of 320. With only one stud left in the case, I would consider doing that too, once the tranny and crank are out.
 
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I use the little green dremel wheels to get the gasket off and do a surface sand on a plate glass with a sheet of 320. With only one stud left in the case, I would consider doing that too, once the tranny and crank are out.

That's just a practice case. It's the test bench for the CDIs.
 
That's just a practice case. It's the test bench for the CDIs.

Oh that's right.

The little green wheels are pretty gentle on the aluminum but get the mummified gasket off without so much elbow grease. They are pretty cheap on amazon for a bag and I use them in a drill and the dremel also.

FPPO 50PCS Abrasive Buffing Polishing Wheel Set for Rotary Tool,Removal of Rust Deburring on Metal Surface with 3mm Shank,Mini scouring pad Brush Polishing kit(grit 180 Green 50pcs) - Amazon.com
 
I don't have pictures right now as I'm done goofing around out there for the evening, but the cylinder head... it's really difficult to get some of that off. I grabbed that totally junk CB400T head and tried 320 on it for quite a while and where those "divets" are from the head gasket they actually appear like they are in the metal surface. It's kind of hard to explain. Anyways, I kept at it for like 20 minutes, constantly oiling the stone and wiping off excess frequently. Could never fully get it off. Since it's a piece of junk head I cheated with some 120 for about 5 minutes. This helped, but still couldn't even get it all off.

Someone else is cleaning up my heads for me, so it's not a huge deal. But I am curious what do you do in a situation like that?
I feel your pain. I used a hardwood sanding block with @200 grit wet/dry working a figure 8 pattern for hours, finished with 400.
 
I spent a bit more time today, about 30 minutes on that head with the red stone/320 and more cutting oil. This is about as good I could as I can get it.

Keep in mind, this is a junk head, for practice.

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The "divets" I'm referring to. This one is actually a hole. I can't imagine a machinist or career mechanic who is getting paid to replace gaskets is literally spending 4+ hours to clean this; they would lose on every single job. There has to be a more proper way.

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Honestly, at this point I could probably use gasgacinch on the non-fire ring parts of the gasket and use it like this. I'd imagine it probably would work fine... but that's not the right way and I want to learn how to do it the right way.
 
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So what you're really saying is that my true software programming side of myself is showing through where I'm obsessing over nothing? Wouldn't be the first time :lol:.
 
Now that I got more practice I did remove the gasket off one of the heads I'll be sending out. Took pictures along the way so you can see the process. Again 320/red stone with honing oil. Wiping with fresh towels every 30-60 seconds.

According to phone timestamps took me 30 minutes.

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They deck the head or barrels on a Bridgeport milling machine, so no messing around like that with sandpaper or Dremel wheels. My buddy has one in his shops along with other machining and boring setups.

Frank, I misunderstood what your trying to accomplish here and are looking to learn how to do this by hand when the machine shop isn't available, or isn't a fiscal option.
 
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