Twin 160's - since you can never have too many projects

EzPete said:
I’m expecting a crap ton of Cameron goodness holding them together right now. Probably get everything soaking in some penetrant, given the likelihood these seals have been baking once for 60 years.
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The seals on this bike are definitely original and man what a load of black sludge in there. It didn't stink like it does sometimes, yet it took a lot of brake clean and kerosene to get the one cleaned internally. The fork tube is shot with a bunch of nasty corrosion pitting just below where the seal sits. I am trying to use Tech Steel to fill and smooth the area to an acceptable finish. I have done small spots on other forks in the past and it worked. This is a pretty large area X 2 spots so who knows.
I can't see buying another fork tube or maybe 2 tubes, once I get the other one apart.
 
Flyin900 said:
The seals on this bike are definitely original and man what a load of black sludge in there. It didn't stink like it does sometimes, yet it took a lot of brake clean and kerosene to get the one cleaned internally. The fork tube is shot with a bunch of nasty corrosion pitting just below where the seal sits. I am trying to use Tech Steel to fill and smooth the area to an acceptable finish. I have done small spots on other forks in the past and it worked. This is a pretty large area X 2 spots so who knows.
I can't see buying another fork tube or maybe 2 tubes, once I get the other one apart.
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Looks like I've got the older? style steel lowers - doesn't match anything on the parts fiche so It'll be fun pulling this apart. Looks like there's possibly a different part number for the seal as well, both need to be replaced.
 
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BB has likely done that style so he can assist you with the parts and removal of that chrome cover. I believe you need a tool of some sort to get that cover off correctly? Definitely a different fork than the 1966 CL160 I have that your fiche shows there. My fiche shows that #16 shown on your fiche as a O ring sitting above that metal collar#13. My fiche lists it as an O ring 38 mm X 3mm for my bike. It was not present on the fork I got apart, just the fork seal and the metal collar. It will be interesting if your forks have them inside there.
I am unsure of the purpose of it since it's outer size is around the outer diameter of the seal itself.
 
Flyin900 said:
BB has likely done that style so he can assist you with the parts and removal of that chrome cover. I believe you need a tool of some sort to get that cover off correctly? Definitely a different fork than the 1966 CL160 I have that your fiche shows there. My fiche shows that #16 shown on your fiche as a O ring sitting above that metal collar#13. My fiche lists it as an O ring 38 mm X 3mm for my bike. It was not present on the fork I got apart, just the fork seal and the metal collar. It will be interesting if your forks have them inside there.
I am unsure of the purpose of it since it's outer size is around the outer diameter of the seal itself.
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There's a mystery "Front Fork Assembly/Disassembly Tool" listed in the FSM, and it kind of appears that the seal housing might be threaded onto the lower? The FSM is super vague on the actual process, but the schematic does actually match the style/type I've got so I've got one fuzzy picture and a line drawing to work from. This could be fun.
 
EzPete said:
There's a mystery "Front Fork Assembly/Disassembly Tool" listed in the FSM, and it kind of appears that the seal housing might be threaded onto the lower? The FSM is super vague on the actual process, but the schematic does actually match the style/type I've got so I've got one fuzzy picture and a line drawing to work from. This could be fun.
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Those chrome covers have dimples in them for a pin spanner style tool, Tom Hanna cut wood blocks to hold his in the vise to unscrew them.
 
ancientdad said:
Those chrome covers have dimples in them for a pin spanner style tool, Tom Hanna cut wood blocks to hold his in the vise to unscrew them.
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That's kind of what I figured. I was thinking of just wrapping it in an old innertube, putting that in the vise and then twisting against the rotation of the rubber - sort of like an oil filter strap wrench.
 
EzPete said:
That's kind of what I figured. I was thinking of just wrapping it in an old innertube, putting that in the vise and then twisting against the rotation of the rubber - sort of like an oil filter strap wrench.
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My only concern with that idea would be how much pressure is it going to take to come loose, because if you have to squeeze too much in only the area where the vise jaws exert pressure it could dent the chrome cover. @ballbearian's full-circle wood block method seems to work well, he's shown it in a thread here..
 
EzPete said:
That's kind of what I figured. I was thinking of just wrapping it in an old innertube, putting that in the vise and then twisting against the rotation of the rubber - sort of like an oil filter strap wrench.
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I put probably 100+ftlbs. with this. WD40, PBlaster soak plenty.

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ballbearian said:
Those rusty fine threads are very stubborn.
I envie your nice pin tool but I've sheard pins and torn holes on other things. I learned about clamping blocks and thin walled tubes from frame builders.
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Looks like I’ve got to find the 1 7/8” hole saw or line the 2” with some neoprene.

Do you know if the later style seal also works? I can’t seem to find a consensus on that - there’s a 2mm thickness difference but they appear to have the same OD/ID.
 
Welp. May not have to worry about all that. Let’s go see if eBay has a set already taken apart.
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Looks like the other one might be turning into a full tracker build.

Now… to find a lightweight front disc model with a spoked wheel.
 
EzPete said:
Welp. May not have to worry about all that. Let’s go see if eBay has a set already taken apart.
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Looks like the other one might be turning into a full tracker build.

Now… to find a lightweight front disc model with a spoked wheel.
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Oh oh. Are both bent? Forks by Frank can prob straighten it.
The early are larger OD than the aluminum lower later ones. Early 31x43x10.5, 90755-222-000. David Silver had some, maybe still.
The OEM DLS drum is a great brake. Is your missing?


I need to print this when I get more ink. Pretty handy.
 
ballbearian said:
Oh oh. Are both bent? Forks by Frank can prob straighten it.
The early are larger OD than the aluminum lower later ones. Early 31x43x10.5, 90755-222-000. David Silver had some, maybe still.
The OEM DLS drum is a great brake. Is your missing?


I need to print this when I get more ink. Pretty handy.
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DSS has the repro seals. I’m likely just going to take the front end off the orange bike and just replace the seals on those- it’s just the one fork that appears bent, or at least the upper portion of the tube isn’t bent in the other side.

I’m thinking about swapping the front end from an 84 CB125S onto the orange one, since that one isn’t going to get an actual resto (needs too many of the NLA parts).
 
EzPete said:
DSS has the repro seals. I’m likely just going to take the front end off the orange bike and just replace the seals on those- it’s just the one fork that appears bent, or at least the upper portion of the tube isn’t bent in the other side.

I’m thinking about swapping the front end from an 84 CB125S onto the orange one, since that one isn’t going to get an actual resto (needs too many of the NLA parts).
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Honda still had the seals for the Aluminum forks, as I just ordered a set. AS BB noted there's a difference in size 31X41X9mm the replacements are 2mm taller at 11mm. I measured the space in the slider and they will just fit. Did you see the O rings in your forks that sit below the seal on that fiche shown on the above post #105 I questioned?
 
Flyin900 said:
Honda still had the seals for the Aluminum forks, as I just ordered a set. AS BB noted there's a difference in size 31X41X9mm the replacements are 2mm taller at 11mm. I measured the space in the slider and they will just fit. Did you see the O rings in your forks that sit below the seal on that fiche shown on the above post #105 I questioned?
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Haven’t pulled them apart yet. Took them out last night to get soaking in PB ahead of time. Need to make the clamping blocks and see if I can cobble together one good set from both bikes.

The new style seal is available OEM, older style (222 middle) is only available as a repro or $$$ through NPN.
 
Pete,

Could you please check your air filters that you re-foamed and confirm and possibly post a picture(s) of the correct left side filter (multiple sides). I am in a discussion with an eBay seller who claims the bump out one with the metal backing is for the right side and not the left side. I am confused, as the right side NOS one I bought has no bump out and lines up correctly on the CL160 right side frame mounts. Yet it was listed for a CB125 bike and was not listed as the CL160. I took a flyer on it from CMSNL, since it looked correct for the CL160 right side filter.
 
Flyin900 said:
Pete,

Could you please check your air filters that you re-foamed and confirm and possibly post a picture(s) of the correct left side filter (multiple sides). I am in a discussion with an eBay seller who claims the bump out one with the metal backing is for the right side and not the left side. I am confused, as the right side NOS one I bought has no bump out and lines up correctly on the CL160 right side frame mounts. Yet it was listed for a CB125 bike and was not listed as the CL160. I took a flyer on it from CMSNL, since it looked correct for the CL160 right side filter.
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Here’s the right side.
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Pete I need the left side air filter that is the right side. That said the right side I bought from CMSNL isn’t the same as it has no bump out. Mmmm
 
Ok I see a little better from those pics. This bike came with pods not on the bike and nothing else. I am trying to understand what they look like. The left side appears to have the media wrapped around the whole frame???
The right side I bought from CMSNL is for a CB125 and it has the rubber boot aligned more in the centre of the filter. The correct one needs to be more on the edge with that metal bump out on the back side. I suspect the CB125 filter will not align to the carb once installed.
 
The only pic I have of mine. They are roughly facing each other (you can tell from the mounting tabs) and the right one has a solid back but the left has foam all around, maybe solid on bottom, ICR.
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Thanks BB. Earlier in this exchange the one with the bump out was identified as the left side filter. So that started the confusion with the EBay seller. It is now confirmed the bump out metal back unit is the right side. I maybe looking for both filters it appears now.
 
Flyin900 said:
Ok I see a little better from those pics. This bike came with pods not on the bike and nothing else. I am trying to understand what they look like. The left side appears to have the media wrapped around the whole frame???
The right side I bought from CMSNL is for a CB125 and it has the rubber boot aligned more in the centre of the filter. The correct one needs to be more on the edge with that metal bump out on the back side. I suspect the CB125 filter will not align to the carb once installed.
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Yeah. Not only is it at the edge, it’s slightly canted toward the centerline of the bike.

I’m still not 100% on the purpose for one having wraparound media and the other only partial - aside from the partial one just being a heck of a lot less flimsy.

The left side one I didn’t have anything other than the frame to work from so the snout length is a bit of a guess. I just tried to mirror the right side.
 
EzPete said:
Yeah. Not only is it at the edge, it’s slightly canted toward the centerline of the bike.

I’m still not 100% on the purpose for one having wraparound media and the other only partial - aside from the partial one just being a heck of a lot less flimsy.

The left side one I didn’t have anything other than the frame to work from so the snout length is a bit of a guess. I just tried to mirror the right side.
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Agree with all above right side filter has metal back. Flying900 didn’t you restore a cl175 ???? Reason I ask is I wonder if 1968 cl175 filters may work?? I may be totally in left field on this !! I spend a lot of time there!! :p

Not to muddy the waters on these difficult to find filters……but I believe filters from 1968 CL175(Sloper one yr model) will fit CL and CB 160s. I have acquired filters for a couple of these bikes and took a chance on 1968 cl175 filters. There is a slight difference this the position of the lower mount bracket and there is an inlet for a crank case vent tube on the front of the filter.
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Here is a link to 1968 CL175 filter image https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-v5z...1853/4190/apiupesjz__69919.1622755831.jpg?c=2

Again, not trying to confuse the issue but maybe a 1968 CL175 can be a fall back plan if an acceptable cb160 is not forthcoming.
 
ballbearian said:
The only pic I have of mine. They are roughly facing each other (you can tell from the mounting tabs) and the right one has a solid back but the left has foam all around, maybe solid on bottom, ICR.
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One filter is for a 160, and the other one fits CB175K0. I sold my 160 a while back, and the new owner was having trouble getting the carburation right. After some discussion, we decided My parts guy threw Me a curve with a wrong filter and the different filter media area,left and right, might be the cause of his issues. I bought the filters some time ago, so I guess I can't return anything. If you know someone who owns a first-year CB175 you might have them snap a picture of the tops of the filters, with the seat off, to see what fits what.
 
I restored a 1968 CL175K0, so I know those filters will work with maybe a little adjustment. I rechecked the CB125 RS filter I bought from CMSNL and it does have the correct right side bump out. So I think I am good to go on the RS filter.
I have all 3 models the CL160, CL175K0 and the CB125 on various air filter watch lists. I am talking with an eBay vendor on the LS filter he has used that will be about $110.00 Canadian. It is decent, yet has some paper damage in a few areas. Since it seems that LS filter has a larger area of paper pleating.
I don't want to go with one OEM paper and one foam filter. I believe that will create issues with air flow inconsistencies between the two carbs. Pete has the right idea in doing both in foam and seeing where he is at later with the jetting.
 
In responding to Mikes post above. The 1968 CL175K0 didn't have a wrap around LS filter media. It was the same as the RS filter with a metal back plate and they were a mirror image of each other. Clearly the CB/CL160 LS if it has a larger filter area is different. Yet the eBay seller is showing what he claims are CB/CL160 air filters and I believe the LS has a larger paper area than the RS? His pictures are not great, so it has been hard to decipher correctly, hence the numerous emails with him.

CMSNL has jetting kits for the main jets from 90 to 104. I bought a set in anticipation of making some jetting changes. I didn't realize they are singles of each jet, so you need to buy 2 kits at about $20.00 per kit. So not unreasonable for about 8 different sized Keihin brand OEM jets.
 
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Yakeye said:
Agree with all above right side filter has metal back. Flying900 didn’t you restore a cl175 ???? Reason I ask is I wonder if 1968 cl175 filters may work?? I may be totally in left field on this !! I spend a lot of time there!! :p

Not to muddy the waters on these difficult to find filters……but I believe filters from 1968 CL175(Sloper one yr model) will fit CL and CB 160s. I have acquired filters for a couple of these bikes and took a chance on 1968 cl175 filters. There is a slight difference this the position of the lower mount bracket and there is an inlet for a crank case vent tube on the front of the filter.
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That vent tube was connected to the carb upper body on the CL175K0 bikes Grumpybugger bought from Diesel Saves. He posted a picture of the bikes and there was a black hose from the air filter to each upper carb body.
My 1968 CL175K0 was an early production bike with a #802 engine serial number. My carbs didn't have the hose connection, so I suspect it was a running change on maybe later versions of the model.

Here is the LS air filter NOS Honda on the 1968 CL175K0 with no outlet tube to connect to the carbs. I don't believe the filter was a wrap around media type, yet that is a best guess. The bike was sold earlier this year.
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Flyin900 said:
In responding to Mikes post above. The 1968 CL175K0 didn't have a wrap around LS filter media. It was the same as the RS filter with a metal back plate and they were a mirror image of each other. Clearly the CB/CL160 LS if it has a larger filter area is different. Yet the eBay seller is showing what he claims are CB/CL160 air filters and I believe the LS has a larger paper area than the RS? His pictures are not great, so it has been hard to decipher correctly, hence the numerous emails with him.

CMSNL has jetting kits for the main jets from 90 to 104. I bought a set in anticipation of making some jetting changes. I didn't realize they are singles of each jet, so you need to buy 2 kits at about $20.00 per kit. So not unreasonable for about 8 different sized Keihin brand OERM jets.
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The may actually be the same size of total filter area, the RH side has thicker pleats, but the LH side does wrap around the entire frame. Weird design. I'm sure there's some sort of purpose for it - likely due to battery proximity maybe?
 
Flyin900 said:
Apologies Pete.... I am going down a Rabbit hole on your post. ;)
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No worries - That's what the forum is for. With all the minor variances in the 160's it's tough to know what "correct" is. Honestly, in looking at the design of these filters, I don't think fabricating one or modifying the 125/175 versions is that big of a lift. As long as the total intake and plenum area are equivalent, there shouldn't be much of a tuning issue.
 
Finally got the ancient petrified seals out of two holders, found two straight tubes, new seals and cleaned up dust caps that soaked in 303 for a few days - seem to still have some pliability so I’m just going to run them.

Those seals were no joke to get out. They had a metal outer that was thoroughly corroded to the holder. Took a three day soak in evaporust, PB and a bunch of heat cycles to get them to finally come free.

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There was a bit of pitting on the fork tubes, I went with the epoxy repair, since this part doesn’t appear to be in the area of the seal travel. Regardless, after sanding with 1500/2500 they’re smooth and solid.

The chrome plating on the seal holders unfortunately did not weather the years so well. Since I’m not going for full concours but more period correct and complete, I’m just going to hit them with the same silver as the side covers and outer cases.

With some decent weather on tap for the weekend, I may get a chance to get some of the paint work done.
 
Semi-productive run today. Grey and chilly morning - took the CX out to burn some gas and realized real quick that apparently, my lowest threshold you’ll catch me riding is not probably 50F. Abbreviated that ride.

So that just left more time. Went a few rounds in the paint booth - finally getting somewhere on the reassembly

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I’m going to let them cure for a few days before putting everything back together. With that done, moved on to the head reassembly. Lapped the valve seats by hand with some polishing compound - no high/low spots visible there, just going to re-use the original valves for now.
Before:
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After

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Got the missing studs on order. They had been replaced by bolts at some point, so at least the removal is done.

Also went after the severely corroded for seal holders, side covers and engine covers, using VHT silver caliper paint. Fired up the oven and cured everything. The silver isn’t as shiny as the duplicolor aluminum, but once cured that caliper paint can take a beating and still look great, and it masks the surface imperfections from pitting a little better.

All in. Big steps closer. Still need to drop the cylinders and pistons at the machine shop but he’s an hour away in an opposite direction from most of my roaming. Once that’s done it’s time to get the engine back together.

Meanwhile, onto the frame.
 

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That red looks really good, should look great all put together. I'm sure you know to be careful with that cam chain tensioner lock bolt with the o-ring groove in the middle of it.
 
ancientdad said:
That red looks really good, should look great all put together. I'm sure you know to be careful with that cam chain tensioner lock bolt with the o-ring groove in the middle of it.
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Yeah. I still need to clean that tensioner and measure the cam chain to see if that needs to be replaced as well.

I would be 0% surprised if the lock bolt wasn’t correct.
 
ballbearian said:
Check bolt length and proper spacer bushing for bolts holding front brake strap. Too long bolt bottoming out can deform fork leg bore inside.
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I remembered you mentioning that in another thread a while back. All M8x16, 3 with split washers.
 
Looks like you're making great progress!

Question...what paint did you use on the engine covers? I bought a can of Honda "Cloud Silver" and it doesn't seem to match.

Thanks for your input.
 
Never Too Late said:
Looks like you're making great progress!

Question...what paint did you use on the engine covers? I bought a can of Honda "Cloud Silver" and it doesn't seem to match.

Thanks for your input.
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I used VHT Caliper paint for these ones, along with the side covers. It does require an oven to cure it (incidentally, this is not on the instructions on the can - 2 hours at 200F), but once that’s done the stuff is pretty dang tough. It’s also got a little less metallic flake to it so it’s a bit more forgiving if the surface isn’t perfect.

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BBQ is a good back up to the oven as it is hopefully outdoors. :unsure:
 
Thank you EzPete and Flyin900 for your insight. Will take a look at the VHT product as you suggested. Ironically, I found that the Honda Cloud Silver had more metal flake than my engine covers. The color was good, but the metalflake didn't look right. The sprocket cover has yellowed compared to the engine covers. So I plan to paint the sprocket cover in its entirety and maybe a few minor touch ups on the engine covers. Probably like finding a needle in the haystack to find a perfect match without repainting all three parts. Thank you again for your help.

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Never Too Late said:
Thank you EzPete and Flyin900 for your insight. Will take a look at the VHT product as you suggested. Ironically, I found that the Honda Cloud Silver had more metal flake than my engine covers. The color was good, but the metalflake didn't look right. The sprocket cover has yellowed compared to the engine covers. So I plan to paint the sprocket cover in its entirety and maybe a few minor touch ups on the engine covers. Probably like finding a needle in the haystack to find a perfect match without repainting all three parts. Thank you again for your help.

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Yeah. Getting a match is likely a futile exercise. I’d probably tackle that as a winter project and just pull the covers, sand them, prime, paint and cure. A blended approach will still show. That caliper paint is pretty thick when it goes on, I don’t know if that could be feathered very well.
 
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