ballbearian
Veteran Member
Oops. Thanks. They are larger than the smaller bikes I've done recently.
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Blue Dream CA78
- Thread starter ballbearian
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- old men dream dreams
Oops. Thanks. They are larger than the smaller bikes I've done recently.
Must be someone close by with a gasket set that as noted use these same green O rings for the valve guide seals. Very few people replace valve guides in any engine, so you end up with lots of these left over. If you have ever done a larger twin or small four or a large bore four they all use the same sized valve guide green O ring.
I used these when I rebuilt the CL175 twin motor on the rear dowels of the barrels, as a perfect fit and correct green O ring.
I used these when I rebuilt the CL175 twin motor on the rear dowels of the barrels, as a perfect fit and correct green O ring.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Those green o-rings could be the same ones I use when I take my XR200R cylinder head to the machinist to have the guides replaced: 10x1.6
ballbearian
Veteran Member
As stated before and info from the 305 parts book, the O rings for the head on the 305 are 11x2mm. The ones I used on the 160 are smaller.
jensen
Veteran Member
You can buy those O-rings at any given specialised store (rubber, O-rings, etc), preferably in Viton. Costly but worth the money, Viton can withstand high temperatures and oil. I also use Viton for the O-rings used for the valve guides. No smoking engines any more. To my experience, if an engines smokes after rebuild, 9 out of 10 times the O-rings around the valve guides are not replaced. I have an Excel sheet of all O-rings, sizes and material somewhere, just like the CB450's and CB400F, somewhere on a back-up disk.
EBay listing for a complete gasket set. These are Viton and not Buna N so you should use the correct ones in there.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/19513353292...pXR+vq0Iy7y7XEBVxBW4lKAn/G0k|tkp:BFBM1tWU2qRh
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/19513353292...pXR+vq0Iy7y7XEBVxBW4lKAn/G0k|tkp:BFBM1tWU2qRh
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I'm assuming that Buna N is what is commonly called Nitril, is this so? I have some nitril that is only rated to 212F. As Jensen said the Viton should be used in high heat applications.
I have at least a couple US made gasket sets that include the 11x2mm Orings. I could not find the Viton wording on the Ebay listing you posted but, again, assuming that a quality gasket set would have viton, or appropriately heat resistant, Orings for the head use.
I think I should not use the Nitril Orings, but stick with the supplied ones from the set.
Perhaps, I question too much, but the dimensional fit between the outer diameter of the Orings and the noticably larger hole in the head gasket, made me wonder if a better fit and better sealing could be had by a slightly larger Oring (or a thicker section from 2.00 to, say 2.50mm). When I examine the old Orings they are smashed and stretched to be close to the hole size in the gasket, but no longer tight around the knock pins at all.
For what it's worth, both knock pins and Orings are larger on my 305 than on all the smaller bikes I've worked on.
I have at least a couple US made gasket sets that include the 11x2mm Orings. I could not find the Viton wording on the Ebay listing you posted but, again, assuming that a quality gasket set would have viton, or appropriately heat resistant, Orings for the head use.
I think I should not use the Nitril Orings, but stick with the supplied ones from the set.
Perhaps, I question too much, but the dimensional fit between the outer diameter of the Orings and the noticably larger hole in the head gasket, made me wonder if a better fit and better sealing could be had by a slightly larger Oring (or a thicker section from 2.00 to, say 2.50mm). When I examine the old Orings they are smashed and stretched to be close to the hole size in the gasket, but no longer tight around the knock pins at all.
For what it's worth, both knock pins and Orings are larger on my 305 than on all the smaller bikes I've worked on.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I know I've probably read your spread sheet at some time, but my organizational skills pale to yours and I'm not sure if I can find it. Fortunately, this issue or question, you've just answered. Thank you.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Yeah, but they are 11x2mm on 305 Dreams.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
I'm glad you're not satisfied with something thats 'almost as good' Tom;the search is on for exactly the correct size and type to provide you with what the job requires 
Tom, If you have the complete gasket sets and the correct O rings are supplied then definitely use them. My belief is the green O rings supplied in these kits are Viton vs Buna N or Nitrile. As previously noted the Viton has superior resistance to heat and chemicals vs the Buna N material. If the correct size is 11X2 mm that is sufficient as supplied in these kits for the use on the dowel pins.
Larger isn't necessarily better, as with a squish effect they maybe too large and not seal correctly. If the wrong O ring material is used then they could also break down and fail.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Thanks a bunch. I'm going with what you've said here, and Jensen too. My apologies for belaboring this with my curiosity, but as usual, I've learned good stuff.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Here is the IMD piston and it's rings. Top 2 rings are marked R on one end and 61 on the other, for 4th oversize, + 1.00, 61mm. The top has very tiny edge bevels, top and bottom, maybe to make it 'thinner' for less drag? The second has a sharp step on it's bottom and, using Mike from Idaho's stand it on edge with finger trick, it appears to lean towards the bottom side, showing an angled outer face. Thanks Mike.
Sorry the pic lacks close up and lighting.
I'm putting the wrist pin clips in with their gaps at 12:00. No Orings on the bottom to forget, I may have trouble screwing this up.
Sorry the pic lacks close up and lighting.
I'm putting the wrist pin clips in with their gaps at 12:00. No Orings on the bottom to forget, I may have trouble screwing this up.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I just love these little green abrasive wheels, I use them in regular drills too. I'm on my 2nd bag of 25 after half a dozen crusty bike clean ups.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
After getting the cam chain on, I wanted to see the tensioner in action. The chain is pushed in about a half inch.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
My clutch outer is a 1964. If you have mid 60's bikes then you may see these ink stamps. It says 39.1.16 which is Jan 16 1964. The last emperor's dynasty began in 1925 so add 39 and you get 1964. Hard to believe that ink survived so long. I think I've seen 42, but that's the latest I know of.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Got two stator/rotor sets. Not sure which is better or how to properly test.
This is the first one, the Denso.
This is the second (not sure of the maker). It says 28 K on the tag.
I was hoping one might be a higher output, but more likely a standard low and an even lower one (maybe '63 or earlier).
This is the first one, the Denso.
This is the second (not sure of the maker). It says 28 K on the tag.
I was hoping one might be a higher output, but more likely a standard low and an even lower one (maybe '63 or earlier).
jensen
Veteran Member
The L on the rotor in the top picture means LOW, thus less power delivery.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Tom,I'm curious if there is a difference in the size/strength of the magnets in that one rotor that has the (L) on it compared to the permanent magnets on the rotor you posted pictured in the bottom ?
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I'm curious too. I may do better just waiting till the bike is up and running to test it and determine any differences. At least that is an easy 'on bike' job. After I cleaned them up, I thought to post pics, that someone may recognize them.
I need to re-read Bill Silver's notes too. Even though the Denso one is newer than the black label one, it is still from a '64 and upgrades may not have happened until '65. Wish I had pics from Charles '65 when we had it apart.
I also don't know if magnet strength increase without appropriate increase in windings on the stator would do anything. Jensen's comment on the lower output mark (L) on the Denso rotor, makes me think that may be so.
I need to re-read Bill Silver's notes too. Even though the Denso one is newer than the black label one, it is still from a '64 and upgrades may not have happened until '65. Wish I had pics from Charles '65 when we had it apart.
I also don't know if magnet strength increase without appropriate increase in windings on the stator would do anything. Jensen's comment on the lower output mark (L) on the Denso rotor, makes me think that may be so.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Do the stator coils look of similar size between the two of them ?
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I forgot my 6mm side studs and forgot whether they had bolts, then I found the studs. It bugs me a bit, so I'll probably do it right before I torque down the head.
Just a FYI on those studs they look new. Unless your sure they came out of there originally you may run into an issue with their length. I replaced all my studs on the head with new parts from Honda and they were slightly longer than what originally was in there.
When putting the spark plugs into the head recently the spark plug socket was hitting the stud top and wouldn’t turn cleanly, because of clearance issues. I ended up having to remove about 2-3mm off the top of the stud for the socket to turn in there properly.
When putting the spark plugs into the head recently the spark plug socket was hitting the stud top and wouldn’t turn cleanly, because of clearance issues. I ended up having to remove about 2-3mm off the top of the stud for the socket to turn in there properly.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
They are the originals, just clean. 35mm overall, as per the FPM spec, which seems short because the bolts I have in there are 35mm. Maybe the long end went into the cylinder, I can't remember. Thanks for the heads up on socket clearance, makes me want to reconsider just keeping the bolts.
What say ye learned elders, bolts OK?
What say ye learned elders, bolts OK?
Though I've never tried it, I can't see why it wouldn't work the same way. Was never sure why they used studs on the smaller twins and bolts on the 350.
For me it makes sense that the long end of a stud would go into the piece so there's as many threads as possible for load pressure. But it there's threads still exposed after the stud stops then I switch it around.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
That certainly jives with my experiences. Steel on steel could get away with 1:1 (diameter to thread length), but with aluminum female threads in the cylinder, I think at least 1:2, or 6mm : 12mm thread length for sufficient strength and durability.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I didn't think of the 350's. You just gave me the perfect answer.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
This mystery washer/bushing from my tranny rebuild back in March (post 169) is exactly what went here under the clutch outer to make the primary chain line up right. The PO had it on the primary shaft inside the case, incorrectly trying to shim end play, is my guess. The other clutch outers here have a longer hollow shaft that don't require this 2mm bushing, but the one that was found on disassembly, and dated 1964 matching this motor, needs it. It's not listed in the parts catalogue, nor in the fiche. I'm sure glad I kept it around, I thought it was just a curious incorrect bit that was stuck in the tranny, but now it's in it proper home I'm sure.
That seems to be correct as I put mine in backwards and that is why I needed to trim the head studs for the spark plug wrench clearance. I also did the same on the exhaust studs and just removed them and switched them around, so there is less threaded area in front of the retaining nut. More threads in the aluminum part makes sense for a stronger hold.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I don't know what class or type aluminum Honda used on it's cylinders and heads, it's pretty good, but I've come across some that was soft as butter and you'd probably need at least 3 times the length to diameter for decent strength.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Teens and single digit temps don't work in my garage. Now it's about mid-twenties so back at it.
Here are some friction discs that the PO of Charles bike said wouldn't fit, but they do, they're just thinner and one more. I added an extra steel disc and the stack is almost exactly like the 5 friction disc stock set up, only .05mm thicker. These are metal backed and the surface area is wider. I think it should be good to go, even if I can't use the fine wire separators on the clutch inner hub. They supposedly are to aid in disengagement allowing an easier finding of neutral when stopped. Can't argue with free parts, especially if they work and work better.
I did get the side cover painted before the big chill hit. It's a late style with the larger oil filter cover, an early ('63) small cover one is still crusty for the spare motor above it.
Here are some friction discs that the PO of Charles bike said wouldn't fit, but they do, they're just thinner and one more. I added an extra steel disc and the stack is almost exactly like the 5 friction disc stock set up, only .05mm thicker. These are metal backed and the surface area is wider. I think it should be good to go, even if I can't use the fine wire separators on the clutch inner hub. They supposedly are to aid in disengagement allowing an easier finding of neutral when stopped. Can't argue with free parts, especially if they work and work better.
I did get the side cover painted before the big chill hit. It's a late style with the larger oil filter cover, an early ('63) small cover one is still crusty for the spare motor above it.
Everything looks great there and the side cover paint came out nice. Interesting to see the difference in the hole for the oil spinner, no extra room in that small cover one! Those wires are worth saving for sure, as they are NLA from sources I checked when doing the CL77. If the clutch pack doesn't work with your work around, at least it is a relatively quick and easy access repair.
Your fearless with the "I'll try anything once attitude" on these work arounds. I enjoy seeing that in your work.
Your fearless with the "I'll try anything once attitude" on these work arounds. I enjoy seeing that in your work.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Flyin900 said:
Thanks. I guess I have to get it on the road to find out if it really works. I would like to know what these discs were really meant for, what models, etc., for future reference. I had no idea those wires were there on my filthy parts until I cleaned them. I now have two sets that I may not ever use, but will surely keep them.
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A quick question on these Dreams, if we have or you have a reference guide on what models and frame and motor numbers belong to what specific year?
I have a fellow CVMG member who called me tonight who has a Dream that he wants to learn more about and has no paperwork. The frame I think he said was serial C78......... and the motor was serial C77E ........ Yet he has no idea on what year of bike he is dealing with presently.
It is in pretty rough shape and needs new mufflers too. I suggested he join the site quite awhile ago and still he hasn't stepped up to join, yet may decide if he can't locate the parts and info that he needs.
I have a fellow CVMG member who called me tonight who has a Dream that he wants to learn more about and has no paperwork. The frame I think he said was serial C78......... and the motor was serial C77E ........ Yet he has no idea on what year of bike he is dealing with presently.
It is in pretty rough shape and needs new mufflers too. I suggested he join the site quite awhile ago and still he hasn't stepped up to join, yet may decide if he can't locate the parts and info that he needs.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
If he has frame C/CA78 then it is at least a '64. Here is a repost of a list posted on a FB group by Bill Silver.
If he has 7 digit # then '65 or later
If he has 7 digit # then '65 or later
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ballbearian
Veteran Member
Tell him to get Bill Silver's down load, it's the mother load of info.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
A rare early battery tray is not what I want to pay gold-plated prices for, so I made my own from left over punched angle strut from my garage door guy days. Excuse my crappy welding but I think it's pretty solid.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Looks like a very good fit to me. Nicely done!
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Tom,I think the battery looks good strapped down rigidly into the bike;it looks good as a blue color also
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ballbearian
Veteran Member
It is pretty solid and has more clearance for the connections than the stock one had, which always makes me nervous that it could short so easy.
I was happy to see it was original blue, not repainted blue, when I found it, even though the damaged areas did get a good bit of repaint. I think the old patina paint looks intentional not just neglected and I'm happy with that.
I was happy to see it was original blue, not repainted blue, when I found it, even though the damaged areas did get a good bit of repaint. I think the old patina paint looks intentional not just neglected and I'm happy with that.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
ballbearian
Veteran Member
This bike has the early style battery which is tall, thin and longer. It takes a stock battery that is no longer made. This is the only AGM that I have found thin enough that will fit. Later Dreams, like Charles '65, can use a Motobatt MB9U which has the same footprint as the common CB350 size, just a bit shorter. These Mighty Max Gels really are awesome and a third the price of Motobatt.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
I plan to look for a later model CA78 Dream to restore then;I think a choice of a larger battery is always an excellent option.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Update on the small head studs on the sides of the head. I went with the original studs instead of bolts because there isn't much threading in the cylinder anyway, only enough to put the short end of the studs in. The long end would have bottomed out on the next cylinder fin and been too short to get a nut on to tighten it down. The pic shows the short end just filling the threaded part.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I torqued the head and hung the motor, after going back and checking the gasket metal ring was centered and deciding to skip extra sealant on the Orings due to a healthy coat of copper spray.
Using a giant tire tool as a lever.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
More lever + more age = more leverage.
Or, "The warrior uses whatever is closest to hand" :lol: (desk phones have more "leverage" too)
Bike is looking really good and coming together as a complete unit. I can see the top head cap bolts have copper washers on both the front and rear studs on the left side of the head. Mine had aluminum washers on the rear studs and copper on the front. At least that is what I took off the bike initially and bagged and tagged. I am not sure if they are supposed to be aluminum on the rear or copper now after seeing your motor.
I would think only a couple of the outer studs carry the oil upward, yet I can't recall which ones did that now.
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