stl360+450
Veteran Member
Nice way to pick up a good supply of NOS parts! And it's good to see activity on this thread.
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The build of The Three Twins (CB450's, maybe 4), an inquiry into Differences and Similarities
- Thread starter jensen
- Start date
jensen
Veteran Member
Years ago (2012) I helped building that engine and bike in CA. The person wanted to build a NOS bike, out of NOS parts only. He gathered the parts over many years, and reached out for me, asking to build the engine for him. It didn't take much time to decide, and a few weeks later I was on a plane, heading for California. I had the privilege to unpack all the parts and put them together. Unfortunately, the owner lost interest, and tried to sell the bike on the internet, but that didn't work out. He sold the most expensive parts (seat, mufflers, tank, mudguards and some small stuff, but promised me that I buy the rest, which I did.
Now, I'm in the possession of a NOS engine, never run to this day, solely build out of NOS parts. Building the engine and helping building the bike was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I went twice to CA, 2012 and 2014. It seems a long time ago, but in my memories it could have bin last week.
This is the bike, which we finished in 2014, my second and last visit. I never worked, and saw a nicer bike that this. It must have bin a very difficult job to find all the correct parts (I helped him searching on the internet). It was a time that you could get parts, not very expensive too (he started acquire parts way before 2012).
Anyway, I will use this engine for one of my K1's, just like the frame, wheels and other parts.
Now, I'm in the possession of a NOS engine, never run to this day, solely build out of NOS parts. Building the engine and helping building the bike was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I went twice to CA, 2012 and 2014. It seems a long time ago, but in my memories it could have bin last week.
This is the bike, which we finished in 2014, my second and last visit. I never worked, and saw a nicer bike that this. It must have bin a very difficult job to find all the correct parts (I helped him searching on the internet). It was a time that you could get parts, not very expensive too (he started acquire parts way before 2012).
Anyway, I will use this engine for one of my K1's, just like the frame, wheels and other parts.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That's incredible, but cool and fitting that the motor ended up in your hands.
I would not have seen the pictures without Brody's reply, since I saw the post initially when it was a new post and there were no pictures in it. You must have added them later. It must have cost a fortune to ship that engine to your location.
jensen
Veteran Member
The CB450 K2, shown in the last picture is also in my garage. It's a nice example of a gorgeous bike. I got the K2 cheap, as a "payment" for the travelling and work.
jensen
Veteran Member
I was editing the post and save it from time to time. The costs where moderate, no more than other shipments. Two pallets for all the parts, frame and engine was around 350 USD. However, customs, administration was another 300 Euro. In total I have shipped 5 pallets of bikes and parts over the last 15 years, mostly CB450's, but also CB77's, and a few other bikes.
Three pallets of bikes and parts, efficient packed, best volume for the dollar if disassembled. Those two pallets contained 4 bikes and extra parts.
Wow, 4 bikes and more on those 2 pallets.
jensen
Veteran Member
Yesterday I started to disassemble the engine which I assembled from only NOS parts 12 years ago. The owner lost interest in the bike and it stood outside in CA for several years. Pictures not for the faint hearted persons.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
It is sad that so much effort was used to collect and assemble the NOS parts, only for the project to wind up outside and unappreciated.
Are there specific parts that you fear could be unusable? Or do you expect most of the parts to be okay?
Are there specific parts that you fear could be unusable? Or do you expect most of the parts to be okay?
That's got to be disheartening for you to see all your work treated like that.
jensen
Veteran Member
All parts are OK, inside the engine everything is just the way I put it together. The outside however, has signs of (heavy) corrosion.
Yes, and no, I understand that people lose interest. I'm glad I have the engine in my possession, I will bring it back in good shape. I had a very good time and kept some good memories building this engine / bike in CA. I will use the engine in one of the K1's, which will replace one of my K0's as a daily rider.
jensen
Veteran Member
Further working on the NOS CB450 K1 engine, inside has never seen oil (except for the assembly oil).
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That's definitely the cleanest oil spinner I've ever seen in the same picture as a recently opened clutch side cover.
jensen
Veteran Member
Tonight I went a little deeper, next weekend all the way. The reason I take it apart is that I don't use the crankcases for my K1 build. The cases that came with my K1 have a very low vin number, I will transplant the inner parts, cylinder and head to these cases. I won't use the crank for now either, since I have a nice K5 crank for this build. The K5 cranks are superior to the K1 cranks. I will use the cases for my K1 with late numbers. Another reason for taking apart is that a lot of parts are corroded (side covers, cam bearings, cam covers etc). These parts have to be polished (finally I can polish parts of the engine, my K0 engine parts are painted (except for the crank bearings and dynamo cover).
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I suspect the only other time you'd see an engine that clean during a teardown would be if you had taken one from the assembly line when new.
jensen
Veteran Member
Yes, I never took an engine apart with my bare hands, normally always wearing gloves, except for this one. My hands where clean, just used normal soft soap to wash my hands for dinner
jensen
Veteran Member
Found some garage time:
Inside of the engine case with the gears, crank and gear selector
bottom crankcase with kickstarter
The valves are new, the prusian blue (Permatex 800238) is still visible, the engine did never run.
A NOS gear, but it was rusted when assembled. I will replace this one with a good one. Rust on NOS parts is a problem, looking careful at the primary shaft, I will be able to see rust as well, as on the plates below the crank. As long it's surface rust on non important surfaces, I don't care.
Inside of the engine case with the gears, crank and gear selector
bottom crankcase with kickstarter
The valves are new, the prusian blue (Permatex 800238) is still visible, the engine did never run.
A NOS gear, but it was rusted when assembled. I will replace this one with a good one. Rust on NOS parts is a problem, looking careful at the primary shaft, I will be able to see rust as well, as on the plates below the crank. As long it's surface rust on non important surfaces, I don't care.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Glad to see you found some garage time. Looking at Post #114 it looks like the copper exhaust gaskets might still be unused. I know the engine was never run, but is it also true that the exhaust was never even installed?
ballbearian
Veteran Member
That gear rust looks so minimal, I'd barely call it a stain, much less any material loss effecting running tolerances. A quick dip in Bilt Hamber DeoxC or Evaporust or even an oil polish would get rid of it, I would think.
jensen
Veteran Member
Not gonna use it in my rider, I have a perfect one as a spare, and replace it. I will use it in another engine, but not one of my riders.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I see you have an Imperial (Dynastic) inked date stamp in the second case pic in post #117. I can't make it out. Just curious.
jensen
Veteran Member
Installed but not tightened, the engine never run, so no need for tightening.
Yes, I will take a clear picture and share it here.
jensen
Veteran Member
Unfortunately, not so much progress here. Long, tough projects, mother in law past away, and a hernia are not helping either. Fortunately, the hernia seems under control, and projects are in calmer waters. What stays is the grief but that takes time. Unlike what I read and hear about mothers in law in general, she was a loving, carrying, woman who never complained. Buried on her birthday, 1st of February, she was 88 years sold. She lived with dignity, and she passed away with dignity, may she rest in piece.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I'm sorry to hear about your loss, Jensen. May she rest in peace.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
The memories of wonderful ones we have known continue to inspire us who remain. They are still good gifts in our lives.
Yes, the stereotype of mothers-in-law certainly does not apply to all. Good that she was a quality human being, and she got to live a long life. My condolences to you and your family for your loss.
Sorry for your loss Jensen. Sounds like she had a good life and caring family which helps.
My condolences Jensen. Sounds like you cared for her a lot.
Jays100
Veteran Member
Sorry for your loss, condolences from here.
J
J
jensen
Veteran Member
Thank you all for the kind words !
2BrokeBikes
Veteran Member
Sorry to hear about your loss, Jensen.
jensen
Veteran Member
Thanks for your sympathy, guys !
At the moment, I'm rehabilitating from my hernia, it will take a few weeks. I have a few days off, on physiotherapist prescription. Finally time to update the long excel list of parts. In the past years, I acquired lots of parts, and put them in boxes without sorting them and or adding them to my administration. Done a dozen boxes, still 13 to go. I think I can finish this very pleasant job.
At the moment, I'm rehabilitating from my hernia, it will take a few weeks. I have a few days off, on physiotherapist prescription. Finally time to update the long excel list of parts. In the past years, I acquired lots of parts, and put them in boxes without sorting them and or adding them to my administration. Done a dozen boxes, still 13 to go. I think I can finish this very pleasant job.
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2BrokeBikes
Veteran Member
I love going out to my garage and finding a box of parts that I forgot about. It's like amnesiac Christmas! Hope you enjoy some good rest and spreadsheet time!
jensen
Veteran Member
I started the sorting not only to clear the backlog, but also to sort the parts for the build of the 4 CB450's. Four sets of piston sets out of the inventory with rings ready for sending them out to the machinist. 1 set std, 1 set 0,25, 1 set 0,50 and 1 set 0,75 over.
jensen
Veteran Member
btw, over the years I gathered a lot of parts in my stash from other Honda twins and Honda non-twins, these parts came with the inventories I acquired as a "package deal". For example, the pistons in the picture above came from an old man who got too old to wrench and sold his whole inventory. He was an ex-employee (retirement) from the company I work for, he had a SUNNEN honing machine and made some money after his retirement with it. I didn't buy the honing machine, someone else was quicker / paid more money, but the buyer of the SUNNEN wasn't interested in pistons, sleeves, bearings etc. Most stuff was CB450, CB72, C77, CB175, CB200, CB125T but also parts of the Honda SOHC fours, so I bought it. I took out the CB450/ CB72 / dream / CB400F parts out for myself, but don't need the other parts.
I could extract a list of parts I don't need, with a price and shipping costs to the US, and place it in the thread "parts for sale". Furthermore, I didn't have a PayPal account, but since I sold some 350 parts @ stl360+450 I opened an account. Here in Europe bank to bank is easy, and has no fees, nor for the seller as well as the buyer.
I could extract a list of parts I don't need, with a price and shipping costs to the US, and place it in the thread "parts for sale". Furthermore, I didn't have a PayPal account, but since I sold some 350 parts @ stl360+450 I opened an account. Here in Europe bank to bank is easy, and has no fees, nor for the seller as well as the buyer.
I'm sure our members would appreciate this.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
You always have a reason for what you do and your choice to use each of these four different piston sizes had me curious. I
It's very nice of you to consider selling parts you aren't using to VHT members. I really appreciate the 350 twin parts you sold to me. Thanks again!
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Jensen, you are an inspiration to organization and preparedness. You even have the perfect sized box for your pistons!
Don't ever change Jensen.
Don't ever change Jensen.
jensen
Veteran Member
No, I just measured the cylinders I want to use and found the matching size pistons with it. The std.'s are for my rider to fit the NOS cylinder. The rest of the pistons are required for the next step in the bore's of the cylinders. The SUNNEN pensionado (I don't know if this is the correct translation, but it is someone enjoying his retirement) had a box full of 259, 266, 268 and 277 piston sets, 4 sets of 283 pistons, a dozen sets of 292 pistons and a box of other Honda pistons. Some with rings, some not. I sold the Yamaha and Suzuki pistons and rings to people who are dealing with those brands. He also had a huge amount of pistons of vintage UK bikes like Norton, AJS, Vincent etc. I'm not into those bikes brands, but I think I saw more than 500 pistons, but probably more.
There is still a box of bearings to be organized, mostly early Japanese bearings like NACHI 630657HS, 75*30*19, NSK B30-35A EH, 75*30*19 and INA / NTN, 34*69*17.8. Some in official Honda packaging, but also a box full of them without any p/n. Those bearings are hard to get, and some people will recognize them as replacement crank bearings for the CB450's and other early CB's.
I threw in the standard pistons for the machinist to understand how Honda was able to work with the very small tolerances of NOS pistons and cylinders out of the factory. You could say a baseline quality control on piston - cylinder clearances of randomly picked NOS pistons and a NOS cylinder. While building the engine in CA, I didn't have the tools to measure the clearance, but had the feeling that one piston had a little more clearance than the other. Now the machinist has a choice of which piston to use in the NOS cylinder. The NOS cylinder should not be bored or honed, the machinist has a choice of 4 pistons and two holes, may the best combinations win.
I always deliver both pistons / rings and cylinder to the machinist, as they bore to spec per piston, and normally the bores are not exactly the same due to piston diameter tolerances.
In general, I was wondering if, at the Honda factory, while assemble engines, the pistons were randomly picked, or if there was some sort of system to fit the ideal piston (clearance) into the ideal cylinder bore. I know that this is happening in a lot of other factory's, it's cheaper because precision fit cost money, especially with the tolerance that Honda advices.
Thanks, that means a lot to me !
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stl360+450
Veteran Member
Fair enough. I guess such small differences probably won't be easily noticed on a dyno, anyways.
I would probably write pensioner or retiree, but that might not convey the exact meaning in terms of enjoying retirement.
jensen
Veteran Member
Inquiry into similarities and differences, that's the title of this thread. And since most of the boxes with parts are categorized, I will start to do just that.
Starting with the switch where the fun begins, the ignition switch / main switch, or here in Europe called "the combi(nation) switch". Since regulations in the US are different from Europe, Honda had to adept their bikes to the local legislation. It was the early sixties, and Honda had already some "frustrating" experience with the differences in legislation with the CB72 / CB77 and dreams. If you look at the parts manual of the CB72 / CB77, which is 280 pages thick due to many differences in legislation, the CB450 parts manual is "only" 135 pages thick, both including police or CYP versions.
Most differences in legislation between country's can be found in the electric parts. The CB72 alone, has already 12 different wire harnesses, where the CB450 K0 has "only" 4 different harnesses. The CB450 K1/K2 series have only 3 different wire harnesses (without the P-version). Since the wire harness is the nerve center of the electrics, it has to adept all differences.
The most important human interface of the wire harness is the main switch, and for the CB450 K0 there are two versions, the European version (5 positions, 35010-284-000) and the US version (4 positions, 35010-283-000).
In some European country's the US version is used (for example Sweden), but in most European country's the 5 position switch was mandatory.
Both switches have 6 electrical contacts, physically you can connect a 5 position switch to a US harness, and the other way around, but some functions will not work as expected. The CB450 K1/K2 have two different switches.
btw, my references for p/n numbers are my parts manuals, I'm using the following parts manuals, which, to my experience, are most complete:
CB72 CB77 CP77 250 300 supersport nr.3, printed in 1969 (according to my information, the most complete one), uses the new style part number coding.
CB72 CB77 CP77 250 300 supersport nr.2 printed in 1967 uses the old and new style part number coding.
CB450 CB450P, nr. 4, printed in 1971, uses only the new style part number coding
CB450, Japanese version, nr.2, printed in 1967, text in Japanese only and uses the old and new style part number coding.
CB450 K1 CB450 K2, nr. 2, printed in 1969, has only the new style part number codes.
Since the information between parts manuals can differ, I only use the new style part numbers as a reference.
For people not aware of the differences, an example:
CB450 K0 piston std. has p/n 13101-283-000 (new style), and p/n CB4501361 (old style)
CB450 K0 piston (0.25) has p/n 13102-283-000 (new style) and p/n CB4501361S1
Both p/n build-up contain logic, however, Honda changed over around 1966, using both styles in a manual. The new type p/n build up is far more modular than the old style, and is more "user-friendly".
Knowing the old part numbers was beneficial, especially on swap meetings. I got a lot of early parts cheap, because most sellers didn't know what part it was.
Today, almost everyone uses the modern style p/n, and parts with the old numbers are almost obsolete. But if you find a part with an old number, just verify at the CMSnl-site, all old style p/n can be found.
Starting with the switch where the fun begins, the ignition switch / main switch, or here in Europe called "the combi(nation) switch". Since regulations in the US are different from Europe, Honda had to adept their bikes to the local legislation. It was the early sixties, and Honda had already some "frustrating" experience with the differences in legislation with the CB72 / CB77 and dreams. If you look at the parts manual of the CB72 / CB77, which is 280 pages thick due to many differences in legislation, the CB450 parts manual is "only" 135 pages thick, both including police or CYP versions.
Most differences in legislation between country's can be found in the electric parts. The CB72 alone, has already 12 different wire harnesses, where the CB450 K0 has "only" 4 different harnesses. The CB450 K1/K2 series have only 3 different wire harnesses (without the P-version). Since the wire harness is the nerve center of the electrics, it has to adept all differences.
The most important human interface of the wire harness is the main switch, and for the CB450 K0 there are two versions, the European version (5 positions, 35010-284-000) and the US version (4 positions, 35010-283-000).
In some European country's the US version is used (for example Sweden), but in most European country's the 5 position switch was mandatory.
Both switches have 6 electrical contacts, physically you can connect a 5 position switch to a US harness, and the other way around, but some functions will not work as expected. The CB450 K1/K2 have two different switches.
btw, my references for p/n numbers are my parts manuals, I'm using the following parts manuals, which, to my experience, are most complete:
CB72 CB77 CP77 250 300 supersport nr.3, printed in 1969 (according to my information, the most complete one), uses the new style part number coding.
CB72 CB77 CP77 250 300 supersport nr.2 printed in 1967 uses the old and new style part number coding.
CB450 CB450P, nr. 4, printed in 1971, uses only the new style part number coding
CB450, Japanese version, nr.2, printed in 1967, text in Japanese only and uses the old and new style part number coding.
CB450 K1 CB450 K2, nr. 2, printed in 1969, has only the new style part number codes.
Since the information between parts manuals can differ, I only use the new style part numbers as a reference.
For people not aware of the differences, an example:
CB450 K0 piston std. has p/n 13101-283-000 (new style), and p/n CB4501361 (old style)
CB450 K0 piston (0.25) has p/n 13102-283-000 (new style) and p/n CB4501361S1
Both p/n build-up contain logic, however, Honda changed over around 1966, using both styles in a manual. The new type p/n build up is far more modular than the old style, and is more "user-friendly".
Knowing the old part numbers was beneficial, especially on swap meetings. I got a lot of early parts cheap, because most sellers didn't know what part it was.
Today, almost everyone uses the modern style p/n, and parts with the old numbers are almost obsolete. But if you find a part with an old number, just verify at the CMSnl-site, all old style p/n can be found.
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jensen
Veteran Member
Opened a box of zinc and chrome plated shafts and axle's, o dear, which is for what bike
The two chrome plated ones are for the Cb450 K1's, that for sure, now the others...
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Good luck with that puzzle!Opened a box of zinc and chrome plated shafts and axle's, o dear, which is for what bike
The two chrome plated ones are for the Cb450 K1's, that for sure, now the others...
Jays100
Veteran Member
Okay, I'll play......but I'm not a K0 expert - expect errors. I also think there are CB/CL72 and 77 bolts in there -Jensen you're sneaky!
from left. #1 K0 motor mount bolt #2, 3, 5 K2-on front axle #4 K0 front axle #6 unknown but i like the spacer #7 center stand pin #8 not 450 #9 bottom center engine mount #10, 11 rear axles #12 not 450 #13 K0 swingarm pivot #14 K2 swingarm pivot #(the rest) are engine and axle mix of Cx77/450
from left. #1 K0 motor mount bolt #2, 3, 5 K2-on front axle #4 K0 front axle #6 unknown but i like the spacer #7 center stand pin #8 not 450 #9 bottom center engine mount #10, 11 rear axles #12 not 450 #13 K0 swingarm pivot #14 K2 swingarm pivot #(the rest) are engine and axle mix of Cx77/450
jensen
Veteran Member
Yes, indeed, CB72 and CB450 in the mix. I also was puzzling, and nr. 4 is original a CR250M1 front wheel axle, but is a good replacement for the CB450 K0, actually I found that all the displayed front axles are CB450 K0-K2. I have to chew on the rest of the parts, forgot what I threw in a couple dozen of years ago. The smaller diameter axles are probably from the C50, PC50, CD50 and SS50 small bikes.
After 3 months of emptying boxes, sorting, labeling and categorizing an endless amount of parts, the end is in sight. I expected that the sorting would only take a few weeks, but it turns out it that it took at least two months. In recent years, I got a few (huge) batches of (NOS and used) parts, some sorted but also unsorted, some labeled and some unlabeled. Mostly CB72/ CB77 and CB450, but also many parts from other Honda's. After the sorting is done, I will share a list of parts I don't need.
And, as always, there is a box of unknown electrical parts, unknown rubber parts, unknown metal parts, unknown cables and unknown spokes. Good for when I have some spare time to burn (comparing with parts of my stash, pictures of CMSnl / eBay etc.).
After 3 months of emptying boxes, sorting, labeling and categorizing an endless amount of parts, the end is in sight. I expected that the sorting would only take a few weeks, but it turns out it that it took at least two months. In recent years, I got a few (huge) batches of (NOS and used) parts, some sorted but also unsorted, some labeled and some unlabeled. Mostly CB72/ CB77 and CB450, but also many parts from other Honda's. After the sorting is done, I will share a list of parts I don't need.
And, as always, there is a box of unknown electrical parts, unknown rubber parts, unknown metal parts, unknown cables and unknown spokes. Good for when I have some spare time to burn (comparing with parts of my stash, pictures of CMSnl / eBay etc.).
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Beansisfine
Member
Hi,
Hope all is well and good, I know this is a relatively old thread (not geologically speaking, yes I am a geologist), in either case. I was wondering if the inventory was completed and if there are any CB77 parts floating about? I'm likely too late to the party, but thought I'd check, the bin of gauges is mouth-watering
Cheers
Hope all is well and good, I know this is a relatively old thread (not geologically speaking, yes I am a geologist), in either case. I was wondering if the inventory was completed and if there are any CB77 parts floating about? I'm likely too late to the party, but thought I'd check, the bin of gauges is mouth-watering
Cheers
The most recent post by the OP is only 2 weeks ago and it's an ongoing thread he updates as he makes progress. A better idea would have been to ask me to initiate a PM with Jensen, or simply wait until you've posted one more time so you can ask him privately yourself about any CB77 parts he might be willing to sell.
Beansisfine
Member
Got it, I mistakenly read jensen's join-date as opposed to the thread age (I'm really not a complete idiot, despite recent missteps). Thank you for the clarification and I'll look for updates.
jensen
Veteran Member
As AD says, it's an ongoing thread, and, I'm still busy (when I have some spare time) to categorize parts.