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Here we go - 1971 CL350 Restore

LongDistanceRider said:
All the rockers need repair, 3 are not good and the 4th is about to be bad.
Rocker Unlimited http://www.rockerarms.com/ can get that done for you.
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Yes, if I'm going to do any they all get done. What's a typical fee for their service?
Of course I still need to resolve the cam issue. I don't know if it's worth having mine refurbished. I think the buggered end would need to be turned down and sleeved?
That leaves looking for a usable used one.
 
ancientdad said:
I think in this new language, 'attach file' means something other than a picture, like a pdf
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Yes, this is the same forum software that is used over at XS650.com. I forget if it works the same way over there. I thought I could attach pictures as well as files, maybe I'm misremembering.
 
I think it's $35 to rebuild them back to spec.
The cost to have the cam welded and turned to fix that end exceeds the value of a replacement. A sleeve on the cam could work, I don't know of any that have been done that way.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
I think it's $35 to rebuild them back to spec.
The cost to have the cam welded and turned to fix that end exceeds the value of a replacement. A sleeve on the cam could work, I don't know of any that have been done that way.
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I assume that's each, which is reasonable. I agree about the cam, I think it's a lost cause. :(
 
Cycleranger said:
I assume that's each, which is reasonable. I agree about the cam, I think it's a lost cause. :(
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Yeah, each. I could be wrong on the $$ though.
I'll talk to Ken at Oregon Cam about the idea of a sleeve instead of welding, one of the issues with welding is the heat and loss of tempering of the cam.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
I'll talk to Ken at Oregon Cam about the idea of a sleeve instead of welding, one of the issues with welding is the heat and loss of tempering of the cam.
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That's what MegaCycle does, they did it to my first exhaust cam. Or he could find a local machinist to put a bronze bushing in the left cam bearing, clean up the cam journal surface and fit it to .0007" clearance (assuming the running clearance is the same as the 450)
 
LongDistanceRider said:
Yeah, each. I could be wrong on the $$ though.
I'll talk to Ken at Oregon Cam about the idea of a sleeve instead of welding, one of the issues with welding is the heat and loss of tempering of the cam.
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Well, as long as it's not hundreds for the rockers that's ok.
As far as the cam, well, anything is possible for a (high) price.
I think for now I'll just see about finding something used that's usable.
 
Cycleranger said:
Tried to get some decent pix of the rockers.
Tell me the bad news.
I'm thinking maybe only one of the three is any good.
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I'm still learning how to judge rocker wear, so I'm curious about these because three of them don't look too bad from this angle. I do see the wear lines on them — are any of them overly flat or cupped? Is that what the wear lines are telling us?

Am I correct in characterizing this as normal wear and tear with the possible exception of the left intake?

LongDistanceRider said:
All the rockers need repair, 3 are not good and the 4th is about to be bad.
Rocker Unlimited http://www.rockerarms.com/ can get that done for you.
Click to expand...

I know you did a lot to set up this shop to help us with these kinds of repairs, Jim. Thank you for that! I'm looking forward to using them at some point. Do we have a sense of their turnaround time?

In terms of the rockers that Cycleranger shared, they were presumably in the motor the last time it ran. How quickly would you expect problems if those rockers were used as-is? What problem(s) would arise? Thanks for educating!
 
The cam side rocker pads have to have an arc and be perfectly smooth to avoid abnormal cam wear. The valve side rocker pads also have an arc and again need to be perfectly smooth to avoid abnormal valve stem wear.
As I understand it the turn around time is about a week, depending on their work load. They have a new 286 and 312 rocker to use for QC purposes and judging if the pads need to be welded up first or just a straight resurfacing.
 
It's hard to see in the photos but both the right intake and exhaust rockers have a groove right in the middle of the face like the one you can see in left intake 2 photo.
 
Opened up the starter today. It was bone dry in there, not a lick of grease.
The bushes still have some life left.
Cleaned it up so I could paint it and ordered some 60x1.5 o-rings for the back end.
71_CL350_80.jpg
 
Nice write up! I didn't know CMC sold a rebuild kit.
I could tell someone had mine apart before me. One of the shims and the felt piece was missing.
There was no grease at all in the planetary gears, like someone cleaned it out and reassembled it without lube.
I have a couple of spare starters so I have plenty of pieces.
 
So today I was cleaning up the oil pump.
Does anyone know what amount of pressure is required to open the spring valve? I tried some compressed air but I guess I couldn't get enough pressure. I'd like to know it's not stuck.
Also I was cleaning the slinger and there was a small amount of dirt/carbon residue inside that was rock hard and positively welded to the aluminum. I thought that was strange.
I had to spend about twenty minutes carefully chipping it out with a pick.
I popped out the oil seals from the engine and then couldn't find the new ones.
I spent some time trying to remember if I'd even ordered new ones..
Fortunately I found them so I apparently I did.:unsure:
 
Cycleranger said:
Does anyone know what amount of pressure is required to open the spring valve? I tried some compressed air but I guess I couldn't get enough pressure. I'd like to know it's not stuck.
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It's been my experience that if you shake the pump the ball will rattle, so it sounds like yours might be stuck and need soaking to loosen it.
 
Cycleranger said:
That's a good price. I think I paid $300 for that when I had my XS650 frame done several years back.

Another thing I took note of today is the spread between the frame and the engine number.
The engine is ~89000 numbers higher than the frame, but still a CL engine in the K3 number range.
That's quite a difference, higher than I would consider typical.
Makes me think it might not be the original engine.
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I beleive the price is more like $400 to $500 today. Thats what I am hearing from people that have it recently done.
 
ancientdad said:
It's been my experience that if you shake the pump the ball will rattle, so it sounds like yours might be stuck and need soaking to loosen it.
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From what I can tell there's two ball bearings. One is loose and it rattles, you can see it at the bottom of the cylinder. That one is fine in my pump.
I believe there's another spring-loaded valve inside that plastic "cage" on the output side. I think it's just another bearing with a spring to prevent drain-back. It opens under pressure.
That's the valve I wanted to check but I don't know any way how except to apply pressure to it. I can't find any pictures of a CB350 pump completely apart since it's not meant to ever come apart, at least the later pumps.
I suppose I could try submersing the pump and piston in some oil and work it manually but I don't know if that would create enough enough pressure.
Or maybe I just shouldn't worry about it.
(I thought about pulling a pump out of one those lower-ends I got just to take it part and see just what's inside but that would destroy it.)
 
Cycleranger said:
So today I was cleaning up the oil pump.
Does anyone know what amount of pressure is required to open the spring valve? I tried some compressed air but I guess I couldn't get enough pressure. I'd like to know it's not stuck.
Also I was cleaning the slinger and there was a small amount of dirt/carbon residue inside that was rock hard and positively welded to the aluminum. I thought that was strange.
I had to spend about twenty minutes carefully chipping it out with a pick.
I popped out the oil seals from the engine and then couldn't find the new ones.
I spent some time trying to remember if I'd even ordered new ones..
Fortunately I found them so I apparently I did.:unsure:
Click to expand...
I just checked a pump. The only way you'll verify the output check ball opens is pumping or high pressure air. There's only 2 balls, one loose one for the suction side that closes when the pump starts down and the other is a check valve to hold some pressure and prevent drain back.
 
Cycleranger said:
From what I can tell there's two ball bearings. One is loose and it rattles, you can see it at the bottom of the cylinder. That one is fine in my pump.
I believe there's another spring-loaded valve inside that plastic "cage" on the output side. I think it's just another bearing with a spring to prevent drain-back. It opens under pressure.
That's the valve I wanted to check but I don't know any way how except to apply pressure to it. I can't find any pictures of a CB350 pump completely apart since it's not meant to ever come apart, at least the later pumps.
I suppose I could try submersing the pump and piston in some oil and work it manually but I don't know if that would create enough enough pressure.
Or maybe I just shouldn't worry about it.
(I thought about pulling a pump out of one those lower-ends I got just to take it part and see just what's inside but that would destroy it.)
Click to expand...
I just went to play with my pump from the BlackHole motor. I couldn't get it to pump gas through just working the piston (maybe too thin) but I blew my compressor through a cork in the cylinder and got the 2nd (spring) valve to open. Have to keep it level or the gravity ball (1st valve ) won't seal. Shame that black hard plastic 2nd valve is not removable (disposable pump) the old ones on the 150's have a screw cap for that. Guess they didn't sell enough replacement pumps.
 
ballbearian said:
I just went to play with my pump from the BlackHole motor. I couldn't get it to pump gas through just working the piston (maybe too thin) but I blew my compressor through a cork in the cylinder and got the 2nd (spring) valve to open. Have to keep it level or the gravity ball (1st valve ) won't seal. Shame that black hard plastic 2nd valve is not removable (disposable pump) the old ones on the 150's have a screw cap for that. Guess they didn't sell enough replacement pumps.
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Ah ok, I figured it shouldn't take a whole lot of pressure to open that valve.
I didn't make that good an effort to seal the cylinder and I may not have been holding it exactly level.
Thanks for the info. I'll try that tomorrow.
 
Cycleranger said:
Ah ok, I figured it shouldn't take a whole lot of pressure to open that valve.
I didn't make that good an effort to seal the cylinder and I may not have been holding it exactly level.
Thanks for the info. I'll try that tomorrow.
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What is the diameter of your piston ? Honda went to a fatter piston for more volume around K2 or 3, I think. You want the 19mm piston.
 
I went ahead and finished Honda's polishing job on that part.
Also, it's really difficult to tell the difference between the 41x2 o-ring for the oil slinger and the 42.5x2 o-ring for the starter in the OEM Honda gasket kit..
Labels would have been nice.
That is all. :)
 
But wait there's more!
Got around to the clutch today. Looks fine, right?
Scrubbed the steel plates a bit and I think there's at least two or three that are too pitted to reuse.
(Not that the rest look super good either.)
I've got them soaking in some vinegar for a while but I don't think will improve things.
I suppose I could scavenge from those bottom ends I bought but they sat out for a long time and I know at least two of them had some water in them.
So probably just get some new plates. 71_CL350_81.jpg
 
Well ok maybe I was a bit pessimistic with my initial assessment.
Soaked them over night in vinegar and then all day in evaporust and they don't look as bad as I thought.
I'll scuff them up a bit and see how they work. If it turns out they're sticky or slippy I can always change them later.
71_CL350_82.jpg
 
So here's a question that I'm sure has been asked before but when reinstalling the cam and cam sprocket is it done with the tensioner installed or off? Or does it matter?
The diagram in the manual(s) shows everything lined up with the tensioner installed but makes no specific comments about it. Since applying tension to the chain changes the sprocket alignment a bit I can see how it might be preferred to have it installed?
But I see other comments that it's ok to do it with the tensioner off.
 
Cycleranger said:
So here's a question that I'm sure has been asked before but when reinstalling the cam and cam sprocket is it done with the tensioner installed or off? Or does it matter?
The diagram in the manual(s) shows everything lined up with the tensioner installed but makes no specific comments about it. Since applying tension to the chain changes the sprocket alignment a bit I can see how it might be preferred to have it installed?
But I see other comments that it's ok to do it with the tensioner off.
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Teh tensioner can be installed, however the tension shoe needs to be fully retracted so the chain will fit. Once the assembly is completed one of the last steps of the engine build is to tension the chain.
 
Cycleranger said:
So doing it with the tensioner installed would be the recommended method?
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In my FSM, installing the cam chain tensioner is the last step in the description of the cam and cam chain reassembly procedure.

Jim seems to be saying it's okay to install the tensioner first, as long as the tension shoe is retracted fully, i.e., not making any contact with the cam chain.
 
stl360+450 said:
In my FSM, installing the cam chain tensioner is the last step in the description of the cam and cam chain reassembly procedure.

Jim seems to be saying it's okay to install the tensioner first, as long as the tension shoe is retracted fully, i.e., not making any contact with the cam chain.
Click to expand...
Hmm, maybe I missed that. I will re-review the tome.
(And I see it now! Ok, thanks everyone!)
 
Last edited:
I'm speaking of the tensioner housing assembly with the spring and tensioner piston in place but locked in fully retracted position. In that position there should be no contact with the tensioning assembly.
When I did the CL350 engine I held off on installing the tensioner until the head was torqued, side covers on, literally the last part to be installed.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
I'm speaking of the tensioner housing assembly with the spring and tensioner piston in place but locked in fully retracted position. In that position there should be no contact with the tensioning assembly.
When I did the CL350 engine I held off on installing the tensioner until the head was torqued, side covers on, literally the last part to be installed.
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Yep, I got that. It would have to be fully retracted.
I just should have read all the way through the manual(s) more carefully before asking my question.
Thx! :)
 
Cycleranger said:
Yep, I got that. It would have to be fully retracted.
I just should have read all the way through the manual(s) more carefully before asking my question.
Thx! :)
Click to expand...
And it should be mentioned that with a brand new chain, there will be less slack anyway so slipping a tooth with the tensioner removed is less likely.
 
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