Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Teeny tiny hitch pins would be cool but for this application I think a stainless cotter pin is ok.
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Here we go - 1971 CL350 Restore
- Thread starter Cycleranger
- Start date
Teeny tiny hitch pins would be cool but for this application I think a stainless cotter pin is ok.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
So I cleaned up the swing arm bolt. Removed the weird OEM zerks and cleaned out the petrified grease.
I would have been inclined just to reuse them but I noticed the spring was blown out of one of them so I'll just tap the holes and thread in a conventional zerk. I did that on a couple of my other Hondas.
I replaced the rubbers in the top bridge. Remember the dots go up!
Tomorrow I might get the tapered steering bearings installed.
I would have been inclined just to reuse them but I noticed the spring was blown out of one of them so I'll just tap the holes and thread in a conventional zerk. I did that on a couple of my other Hondas.
I replaced the rubbers in the top bridge. Remember the dots go up!
Tomorrow I might get the tapered steering bearings installed.
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stl360+450
Veteran Member
I'd appreciate pictures of the tapered steering bearing assembly if you think of it. I should be following you on that task in the next two weeks (I hope).
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Sure, no problem. I've got to do some research beforehand and make sure I get the right spacers in the right place on the stem 'cause once that lower bearing goes on you're committed.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I've never replaced a steering bearing before, so this will be a huge help.
As he mentioned, the stack height on the lower bearing is the only difficult part. Otherwise it's like changing pretty much all other bearings.
FWIW: With a drill press that is an easy drill out repair along with some small cobalt bits and oil lube. Slow speed on the drill press and it is out immediately. A small cobalt bit will bite without a punch mark and go right through.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
I installed the steering bearings today.
All Balls has improved their kit somewhat since last time I used one several years ago. They include some basic instructions and an additional washer. (Maybe they've been there a while, it's been about six years since I last used one of their kits.)
I wasn't careful enough driving out the lower race so I had to clean that up.
Then I compared the lower bearing stacks to make sure they were close (within ~1mm).
The thinner washer that the instructions recommended was correct. I used the old race and a piece of PVC pipe to drive on the lower bearing. It goes on pretty easy.
The upper race protrudes a bit, this is normal. I like that the kit includes a washer for the top cover.
(I assembled everything to test for fit and took some photos but they were terrible so I'll get some better ones tomorrow.)
All Balls has improved their kit somewhat since last time I used one several years ago. They include some basic instructions and an additional washer. (Maybe they've been there a while, it's been about six years since I last used one of their kits.)
I wasn't careful enough driving out the lower race so I had to clean that up.
Then I compared the lower bearing stacks to make sure they were close (within ~1mm).
The thinner washer that the instructions recommended was correct. I used the old race and a piece of PVC pipe to drive on the lower bearing. It goes on pretty easy.
The upper race protrudes a bit, this is normal. I like that the kit includes a washer for the top cover.
(I assembled everything to test for fit and took some photos but they were terrible so I'll get some better ones tomorrow.)
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bilbikek411
Veteran Member
I'm glad to know you received a 'complete' All Balls tapered steering bearing kit;do you think the quality of All Balls tapered roller bearings and races are good enough to keep them from wearing out?
I have a set in my daily driver Honda now for 8 years; I needed to use Loctite green/bearing mount on the lower race where it goes into the frame because it was a somewhat loose fit in the frame. The Loctite green is SOLID stuff ! and I'm hoping they won't wear out anytime soon. I'm using very good quality grease(Honda Molykote 60),the type you use on GoldWing drive splines and rear wheel splines:real thick paste. Hoping the steel is hard enough to last.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
I've used their kits in all my bikes and fortunately never had any fitment issues.
However, I have noticed that not every frame Honda made was perfect.
As far as longevity I think their bearings are perfectly fine and probably over kill for this use.
Unless you're pounding the front end every day like a dirt bike I think these bearings, properly maintained, will last for as long as they need to.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Ok thanks, have you had a set of All Balls bearings on one of your bikes for over 10 years of service yet ?
There used to be other brands of tapered steering bearings which were Made in USA or Made in Japan,back in the day; but lately All Balls Made in China is the only brand I can find..
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Yes, I installed the tapered steering bearings in my CB750K5 in 2009 and I've put a lot of miles on that bike since then.
Not to mention the significantly greater weight of the bike putting greater load on the bearings. If tapered rollers are made to the specs they should be regardless of manufacturer, they should hold up practically forever in the steering heads of bikes. So much greater surface area to bear the load of the weight than the original balls and races that dimpled easily in a much shorter period of years.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thank you for documenting all of this!
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Yeah, I finally broke it trying to punch out the pin. Oh well. Fortunately replacement plates are plentiful and relatively inexpensive on ebay so that's taken care of.
And speaking of broken things, boy the battery box on this bike sure is flimsy. Mine was cracked in a couple of places with a piece missing.
i got a replacement that looked good in the photos but it too has a brazed repair and some rust, but I can work with it.
It's a pita to strip the paint since someone repainted it after the repair. sigh.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I've kept a gallon of used brake fluid for a soaker paint removal bath, might depend on what paint was on it.
If the box is too far gone I can look here for an extra, probably have one.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
I have the box soaking in the leftover MEK/acetone cocktail I brewed to remove the tank liner from my 550 tank.
My "cocktail" seems to be lifting the paint quite well, especially since it's 100+ degrees in the shop.
(it's in a sealed bucket, so no fumes.)
I thought there was something wrong with my bead blasting cabinet it was taking so long to strip the paint since it usually just eats stock Honda paint then I realized it was coated with "modern" paint.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
So the battery box got stripped and then sat in some Evap-o-rust for a couple of days. Now it's painted.
So then I moved the engine into the air conditioned portion of the shop.
I had to install some extra lighting to make that work but it remains just too damn hot to do real work out in the shop.
I popped the top and the sides. The cam looks...ok... from what I see so far.
Every single screw is buggered up on this motor and they all required the impact driver to break them loose.
I will probably just get a screw kit and replace them all. Buggered screw heads really bother me.
It's hard to see but that gasket is completely coated on both sides with blue RTV.
There's blue RTV everywhere.. I don't know why somebody had the top end off this motor but happened a long time ago.
The oil filter/slinger cover was really tight. I don't think it had been off for a long time but there wasn't much sludge inside however there are some bits of aluminum. Hopefully it's just from a loose timing chain. Hopefully.
I guess I may as well order some new clutch plates while I'm here. At least the clutch looks original.
So then I moved the engine into the air conditioned portion of the shop.
I had to install some extra lighting to make that work but it remains just too damn hot to do real work out in the shop.
I popped the top and the sides. The cam looks...ok... from what I see so far.
Every single screw is buggered up on this motor and they all required the impact driver to break them loose.
I will probably just get a screw kit and replace them all. Buggered screw heads really bother me.
It's hard to see but that gasket is completely coated on both sides with blue RTV.
There's blue RTV everywhere.. I don't know why somebody had the top end off this motor but happened a long time ago.
The oil filter/slinger cover was really tight. I don't think it had been off for a long time but there wasn't much sludge inside however there are some bits of aluminum. Hopefully it's just from a loose timing chain. Hopefully.
I guess I may as well order some new clutch plates while I'm here. At least the clutch looks original.
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ballbearian
Veteran Member
I almost expect the screws and RTV on these old motors but the relatively clean filter is a bonus. I hope mine will look that good.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Yeah, very little sludge that I can see so far. At least the oil got changed.
I looks to me like someone had it apart and just reused the gaskets..
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Maybe easier gasket removal too. More bonus.
You can always tell an amateur by the fact that they coat the entire gasket, instead of just the areas that contact the sealing surface of the cover. Fortunately it looks like they didn't go overboard like the ding dong PO who did the left crankcase cover on my 450.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
The goal today was to remove the stuck advance.
Which, after an hour or so, some heat, some vise grips, and lots of wiggling, I accomplished.
It fought the whole way off. Weirdly though there was no rust.
It was just glued on with old grease, even after liberal application of heat.
I was looking at the chain guard and I think it's going to have to soak for a week in solvent to remove the petrified coating of muddy chain lube. (Or maybe I can heat it up and scrape it off, like tar.)
Then, disaster struck! My big shop fan died. It was running fine then just quit.
I looked it over and I can smell something burned. It still spins freely so maybe there's hope.
Its function is essential to continued progress and I don't want to have to buy another.
So I'll look at that tomorrow.
Which, after an hour or so, some heat, some vise grips, and lots of wiggling, I accomplished.
It fought the whole way off. Weirdly though there was no rust.
It was just glued on with old grease, even after liberal application of heat.
I was looking at the chain guard and I think it's going to have to soak for a week in solvent to remove the petrified coating of muddy chain lube. (Or maybe I can heat it up and scrape it off, like tar.)
Then, disaster struck! My big shop fan died. It was running fine then just quit.
I looked it over and I can smell something burned. It still spins freely so maybe there's hope.
Its function is essential to continued progress and I don't want to have to buy another.
So I'll look at that tomorrow.
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HF just had those on sale last weekend for $19.99
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Yeah, this one cost considerably more when I bought it seven or eight years ago.
It could be that I got my money's worth but I'm hoping I can revive it.
If I replace it I'll probably get a bigger one since it seems like it's going to 100°+ until November!
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I think it's the dirt/clay component of the chaingaurd crud that gets so hard. Even a water soak may make the scraping easier.
So, fans and, it looks like, angle grinders haven't gone up too much. Happy dance for both of us!
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
More RTV, front and back... :angry:
But as was pointed out at least I don't have a lot of gasket to scrape.
The cam blocks look pretty good. The rocker shafts too. There's a bit of wear. The rocker arms look ok, except one has a slight groove.
I'll clean everything up and inspect it closer and get some pix maybe tomorrow.
Oh, and the fan just needs a new capacitor so I got one on order.
But as was pointed out at least I don't have a lot of gasket to scrape.
The cam blocks look pretty good. The rocker shafts too. There's a bit of wear. The rocker arms look ok, except one has a slight groove.
I'll clean everything up and inspect it closer and get some pix maybe tomorrow.
Oh, and the fan just needs a new capacitor so I got one on order.
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Wow, those are PO Hall of Shame pics there. Talk about coated, even the end of one of the rocker shafts.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Looks like the rtv is oozing out from under the rocker box, too. Fun. At least there is good news about your fan. My project will soon be graduating from the basement to the garage and I'll have to worry more about the heat from that point forward.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Glad to hear you can get your fan running again;going up to 105 here today..
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
It's been 100°+ every day here for the last month, really since June. I'm pretty sick of it.
Yeah, there's RTV oozing out of every gasket. So far I haven't found any actually inside the engine. So far.
Not quite as bad here at an average of 94° to 95° daily when it isn't raining - which is not nearly as often as usual this time of year for us - but I'm tired of it too and really looking forward to the end of September/early October. We'll still be watching hurricanes for another month or so at that point, but at least the heat will start to decline. And then life outdoors can resume once again.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
A few more "hall of shame" photos.
After getting it all apart I still don't know why the top end was ever off this bike.
Pistons were stock, q&d bore measurements equaled ~64mm, so it hasn't been bored over.
(I'm going to get better measurements after everything is cleaned up.)
The bores look nice, no lip and no taper. Valves look ok, but I've got to clean up the chambers.
As I suspected the aluminum in the oil was from the cam chain tunnel. Got some nice clearance there now...
The little shims ("rubbers") were missing from the from the cam chain roller and the roller is completely shot so the chain had a lot of side to side flop.
Maybe the RTV mechanic left out the shims when it was reassembled.
The guide is probably reusable but I'm going to replace it anyway.
At least there was no RTV on the head gasket and it came apart easily.
I got the clutch and oil pump out. The pump screen was basically clean, so that's good.
All and all except for the cam chain roller everything looks pretty good.
After getting it all apart I still don't know why the top end was ever off this bike.
Pistons were stock, q&d bore measurements equaled ~64mm, so it hasn't been bored over.
(I'm going to get better measurements after everything is cleaned up.)
The bores look nice, no lip and no taper. Valves look ok, but I've got to clean up the chambers.
As I suspected the aluminum in the oil was from the cam chain tunnel. Got some nice clearance there now...
The little shims ("rubbers") were missing from the from the cam chain roller and the roller is completely shot so the chain had a lot of side to side flop.
Maybe the RTV mechanic left out the shims when it was reassembled.
The guide is probably reusable but I'm going to replace it anyway.
At least there was no RTV on the head gasket and it came apart easily.
I got the clutch and oil pump out. The pump screen was basically clean, so that's good.
All and all except for the cam chain roller everything looks pretty good.
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stl360+450
Veteran Member
How about the cam and rockers? Did I miss those?
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
You have not!
I'm going to get some photos of those but they look ok too, all things considered, although I do have some questions for people who have looked at more of them than I have.
Well, that's as much silicone on gaskets as I've seen in a while, the base gasket was ridiculous, almost troweled on. Does make you wonder why it was apart for sure. And probably as bad a cam chain wear example as I've seen on the sides of the tunnel in some time as well, usually it's more on the front and back so the lack of the center roller pin rubbers was definitely a factor though it does have at least some forward tunnel wear marks. And the tensioner center roller got wiped out from the erratic cam chain movement. It must be like an autopsy to a medical examiner, fascinating (or discouraging as the case may be) to see the remains of yet another poorly-executed top end repair.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
I spent about four hours today scraping and scrubbing. Things look much better now.
There was so much RTV around the barrels I wasn't sure there were any o-rings, but they were there, under the RTV.
And of course there was a second set of copper exhaust seals crushed flat into the head. Isn't there always?
I tried to take some photos of the cam, but they didn't come out well. Maybe I'll try some out in sunlight.
Basically the cam lobes look pretty good. However there's some striations on the shaft on the points side. They look worse than they feel, but some wear nonetheless.
I guess the PO ran out of RTV when he got to the top because the top cover and the baffle were glued on with some other sealer that petrified the gaskets. I set those soaking in my toxic MEK/Acetone solution. Hopefully it soften up the gaskets.
There was so much RTV around the barrels I wasn't sure there were any o-rings, but they were there, under the RTV.
And of course there was a second set of copper exhaust seals crushed flat into the head. Isn't there always?
I tried to take some photos of the cam, but they didn't come out well. Maybe I'll try some out in sunlight.
Basically the cam lobes look pretty good. However there's some striations on the shaft on the points side. They look worse than they feel, but some wear nonetheless.
I guess the PO ran out of RTV when he got to the top because the top cover and the baffle were glued on with some other sealer that petrified the gaskets. I set those soaking in my toxic MEK/Acetone solution. Hopefully it soften up the gaskets.
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ballbearian
Veteran Member
I've not seen that kind of side slap damage from a chain, so this new to me. Maybe the damage can be lived with if the cause can be fixed. Since it seems so low and mostly in the cylinder, it will be interesting to see the sprocket on the crank. Could the slide have been jumping around and side to side? That tensioner wheel must have given the chain quite a jumpy ride.
fxray
Veteran Member
They likely got jostled out of place during assembly. You will probably find them stuck in the goo under the windage tray after you split the cases.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
I guess I will never know 'cause I'm not going there.
Cleaned up the pistons today while I'm waiting for rings. They look pretty darn good.
I took some more measurements of the bores.
They look so good I'm wondering if the reason the top end was redone was to install new jugs.
The speedo shows ~14K and I just don't see 14K worth of wear on the bores or the pistons.
However, the cam otoh does some some wear..
I tried to get some better photos today and sort of succeeded.
The lobes look pretty good (I've seen a lot worse) but the the wear pattern on the points side is strange.
The speedo side looks pretty good.
(Yeah, I know, what do the rockers look like? I'll get some pictures of those too.)
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stl360+450
Veteran Member
How do the bearings in the cam side covers look? Might try to take pictures of those when documenting the rockers.
Cam looks normal, for one that lost oil pressure. The galling is pretty bad and may mean scrapping it as well as the cam bearing. The blackened cam lobes are another sign of low oil pressure/starvation.
Need to measure the bearing cap and that end to see how bad it really is. Cam can be reground by Oregon Camshaft and the rockers can be repaired at Rockers Unlimited.
Need to measure the bearing cap and that end to see how bad it really is. Cam can be reground by Oregon Camshaft and the rockers can be repaired at Rockers Unlimited.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Hmm, I didn't think it was that bad. It looks worse, imho, than it is. But I am not a cam expert.
However, you're correct in that more measurements are needed.
Yeah, the cam and rockers can be reworked but good cam blocks are hard to come by.
It may not be as bad as I think. I've learned to add more damage to pictures of parts than what's seen over the years. The real truth will be measurements.
While not ideal some grooving on that surface will be ok since it oil pressure fed.
While not ideal some grooving on that surface will be ok since it oil pressure fed.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Yes I think the photos make it look worse.But any amount of galling isn't good..
fxray
Veteran Member
Do you mean that you are not planning to split the cases? Does that imply that you are going to reuse that old cam chain that was slung side to side enough to cut big grooves in the tunnel? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you meant, but I sure would replace the chain if I were you.
I am not a fan of removing the windage tray, but I do flush underneath it extensively. If those rubber pads are under the tray, they would flush out without removing the tray. That is what I meant when I said you would find them when you split the cases.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
No I wasn't planning on splitting the cases. Replacing/repairing the cam wasn't part of the plan either..
But here we are.
So I measured the buggered end of the cam and the bearing block. Both are out of spec.
The other end is fine.
Fixing the cam will pretty much blow the budget for this bike.
I will have to think about what's next.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Aren't expensive detours part of the fun? :lol: I think I need to tear myself away from my frame detour on Mousetown and start looking at the motor as well as the spare engine from the K2 CL to see what goodies there is. Maybe there is something there to help you out. If not, perhaps the cam journal could be cleaned up enough with long emery strips and a bushing job on the cam end block would make it right.
Where are the pictures of your sexy rockers?
Maybe a hone and new rings will be the extent of that beating. Are the small end rod bores sweet?
I too, vote for a case split just for a thorough clean out (especially the crank bearings) and a look see to make sure nothing serious needs fixed. Knowing is knowing, it's better than smoking hope-ium.
edit: I'd be looking for plugged oil passages, starting in the cases too
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Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Tried to get some decent pix of the rockers.
Tell me the bad news.
I'm thinking maybe only one of the three is any good.
The right exhaust has a nice groove in the face.
It's good news I guess that the pins and rockers still measure in spec so I guess the rockers could be refaced.
Hmmm, "attach file" doesn't seem to be working right to post a picture. "Insert Image" seems to work.
Tell me the bad news.
I'm thinking maybe only one of the three is any good.
The right exhaust has a nice groove in the face.
It's good news I guess that the pins and rockers still measure in spec so I guess the rockers could be refaced.
Hmmm, "attach file" doesn't seem to be working right to post a picture. "Insert Image" seems to work.
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All the rockers need repair, 3 are not good and the 4th is about to be bad.
Rocker Unlimited http://www.rockerarms.com/ can get that done for you.