1972 CB450 K5 Hot Mess

Just be sure to work the hole full of grease using a toothpick or something. Obviously only works on blind holes and then be sure to clean all the grease out if you are going to need to thread a bolt in later.
 
Time for fun and games friends, this is my version of the old Hocus Focus comic strip which I loved. I started putting the shift drum together in the upper case this morning while it was still cool this morning making sure everything was clean and and nothing I had missed like the drum seal in the case. OK got that, shift forks on the shaft, put in the guide pins and now for the clips, darn why won't they go in??? Duhhh helps to put them in the right way. OK time to start assembling the shift and neutral stopper assembly. After a bit of a struggle with the springs I got it together. Yay but something looked off. After going back to older posts in this thread I saw where I goofed so went back this evening and corrected my mistake. Take a look at the 2 photos and see the error. Orientation of upper case is different so makes it more fun. Sorry no prizes.

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Good catch but that was just where I had left the drum when I rotating it through the gears so to speak. There is a part installed incorrectly in the first photo, Take a look at the half moon bearing retainer. I had installed it behind the pizza cutter at first so had to partially disassemble to position it properly. Not even sure it would have caused a problem but wanted to do it properly.
 
I long ago discovered how creative I was in getting things wrong. These days it's so easy to take great pictures, and yet I fail to do it, a lot. You caught yourself, and that's the test of a good mechanic. Carry on, this is going to work!
 
Got a question for the team, I am starting the crankshaft reassembly and just piecing stuff together and not sure if I lost something or just lost. In the image from the parts manual for the crankshaft where the heck does item 7, go ? I can't find it in the parts from disassembly and unsure where it would go if I found it. Does it go on the splined shaft before item 6?

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Thanks went back out to the garage and looked at the other crankshaft and found the part #7 just as @jensen said. The crank I am using came from the donor engine so not sure if I misplaced the part or if it was even there. Anyway i have one and thanks for the help.
 
Got the transmission shafts installed, sitting properly on the knock pins, in the upper case and and made sure that the shift drum and forks work smoothly which it did provided I rotated the main and counter shaft a bit. Then started putting the crankshaft together to install it. Got all the bearings in their respective retainers, all the thrust washers in place, a new circlip including mystery parts(#7). Got the crank shaft resting in the upper case with the bearing knock pins in place. Got the center bearing cap just loosely installed and made sure that the cap is oriented the way it came off by looking at the marks where the pins are held in place.

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I did have a question about the the 2 crankshafts that they appear to be made slightly differently and if that is something to be concerned about or not. The first pic is the crankshaft I am using and came out of the 71 CL donor engine and the second is out of the 72 CB. Note the 72 CB has splines on both sides of the cam chain gear while the 71 CL is splined on one side but smooth on the other. I am assuming just a difference in manufacturing but wanted to ask about it.

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RobMan said:
the 71 CL is splined on one side but smooth on the other. I am assuming just a difference in manufacturing but wanted to ask about it.
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My '71 CB is the same as your '71CL, with the spline only on the one side. Not sure why Honda changed their manufacturing technique in '72, maybe more symmetrical=better balance?
 
boddy said:
My '71 CB is the same as your '71CL, with the spline only on the one side. Not sure why Honda changed their manufacturing technique in '72, maybe more symmetrical=better balance?
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Probably just a different company got the contract to make the crankshafts and they did it slightly differently. I really didn't see it as a problem but it caught my attention.
 
I suspect that some of the manufacturing changes are simply revisions to lower cost and or simplify the manufacturing process. I noticed a revision on the primary gear when I had K5 (right) and K7 (left) motors apart at the same time.

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The older, more complicated spacer on the right was replaced by a special flat washer on the left and the gear was made wider to compensate. Notice that the extra part of the gear does not seem to get used (no wear).
 
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stl360+450 said:
I suspect that some of the manufacturing changes are simply revisions to lower cost and or simplify the manufacturing process. I noticed a revision on the primary gear when I had K5 (right) and K7 (left) motors apart at the same time.

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The older, more complicated spacer on the right was replaced by a special flat washer on the right and the gear was made wider to compensate. Notice that the extra part of the gear does not seem to get used (no wear).
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Different engineer drawing up the prints but same result. The one on the right looks more elegant.
 
Still getting things ready to button up the bottom end but have to overcome the duhh factor. Yes you can put some of the transmission gears on their shafts backwards and for some reason it does not work as expected. I thought at first it was a problem with the shifting star and pizza cutter but after looking at the FSM I saw I had the 1st counter shaft gear on the input side on backwards, corrected and works great. Then I spent a day trying to find where I had put one of the sets of case bolts I have so I can pick out the best of both. I had found one set right away but the other set was deliberately hiding. Finally found them right where I had put them some months ago. Luckily I am not getting paid flat rate for this work. I have the cam chain in place with a zip tie holding it together and I have torqued the center crankshaft bolts.


I do have a question about when I get ready to seal the cases and if I should seal the the output shaft seal with Hondabond or not? I saw in the those guys in Houston video that they recommend using Hondabond on all the seals but I typically don't like to use adhesive on a seal unless there is damage to the case sealing surface or if it leaks later at that area and I have to replace it. I have had issues where PO's on bikes and cars have glued in the seal and they are a real pain to get out later. I do plan to use just a bit extra Hondabond where the 2 cases meet at the seal on either side so there is no seepage at that joint but wanted to know what others with a great deal more experience on these bikes do.
 
The only seal I'd put some Hondabond on would be the clutch rod seal, none of the others are a problem keeping them in the crankcase. I wouldn't add any "extra" anywhere in particular, a thin smear on one half of the crankcase is enough because Honda's machining tolerances were so good they fit together quite tightly. Glad you got the gears sorted, yes it's easy to slip one on backwards.
 
ancientdad said:
The only seal I'd put some Hondabond on would be the clutch rod seal, none of the others are a problem keeping them in the crankcase. I wouldn't add any "extra" anywhere in particular, a thin smear on one half of the crankcase is enough because Honda's machining tolerances were so good they fit together quite tightly. Glad you got the gears sorted, yes it's easy to slip one on backwards.
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Thanks and will do. I really appreciate the advice.
 
OK that time was just practice. Started to button up the upper and lower case today, made sure everything looked good, got my tools laid out, torque values confirmed, fasteners ready with anti seize then and applied Hondabond as @ancientdad suggested. Sat the lower case on and started installing the fasteners. Ran them down snug and then started torquing them starting with the larger crank bolts using a zig zag pattern. Everything going lovely until I got to the next to last 6mm bolt and I had barely applied any torque and I felt it give. Drat! Went ahead and torqued all the rest of the bolts just to see if they were going to be OK and they were. So it was time to disassemble which I did and cleaned up all the Hondabond I so carefully applied. I was debating for a moment taking the lower case to the machinist but decided to give the cheap left hand drill bits from Harbor Freight a try. Center punched the broken bit and used the left hand bit and it came right out without actually drilling anything, just applied a bit of pressure. Cheap drill bit set just paid for itself. I had tried using the best of the old bolts I had but I am going to look for new case bolts now. I believe that bolt failed from age and possibly being over torqued or something in the past. I guess I will start with McMaster Carr but if someone has other suggestion they are appreciated.


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That's rotten luck. It looks like CMS ought to have most of them. I looked at Partzilla and they had some, but not all. Both schematics skip #8, which appears to be a bolt. Those may be more expensive options, though.
 
stl360+450 said:
That's rotten luck. It looks like CMS ought to have most of them. I looked at Partzilla and they had some, but not all. Both schematics skip #8, which appears to be a bolt. Those may be more expensive options, though.
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Yeah NOS Parts Now on ebay has some but they are redicuouly expensive. I may have try the hardware stores and try to mix and match from different vendors.
 
OK that time was just practice.
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That's exactly what my late grandmother used to say when she realized she had to rip out days of needlepoint progress and start over. ("I was just practicing")

Two steps forward, one step back. Good save on the bolt extraction though. I was thinking that the bolt visual wouldn't matter because it's underneath, but of course it has to be one of the front ones where the head of it can easily be seen... I probably have a good one somewhere in the pile of spares I have between my 2 spare 5 speed bottom ends, but finding it for you would take a minute or two. Happy to look if you want.
 
jensen said:
Yes, typical a (earlier) over-torque pattern on the stuck end of the bolt.....
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I know I should have replaced the bolts as I have had this problem before with my first 1972 or 73 CB450 back in 1977/78 when I was in the Air Force. One of the case bolts broke off exactly the same way so I took it to the local Honda shop in Victorville California to get repaired, instead they messed it up worse. Then I took it to a friend in the machine shop on base and he drilled it out, tapped it and put a length of all thread in it so I just used a nut where the bolt head used to be. Not elegant but it worked.
 
ancientdad said:
That's exactly what my late grandmother used to say when she realized she had to rip out days of needlepoint progress and start over. ("I was just practicing")

Two steps forward, one step back. Good save on the bolt extraction though. I was thinking that the bolt visual wouldn't matter because it's underneath, but of course it has to be one of the front ones where the head of it can easily be seen... I probably have a good one somewhere in the pile of spares I have between my 2 spare 5 speed bottom ends, but finding it for you would take a minute or two. Happy to look if you want.
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I am sure your Grandmother was holding in some "frustration" when she said that because Drat was not the word that came out of my mouth. I appreciate the offer to look and I will keep it in mind but hold off for now as I am going to try to replace the 6mm bolts with new ones at least. I think the 8mm ones will be OK.
 
RobMan said:
I am sure your Grandmother was holding in some "frustration" when she said that because Drat was not the word that came out of my mouth. I appreciate the offer to look and I will keep it in mind but hold off for now as I am going to try to replace the 6mm bolts with new ones at least. I think the 8mm ones will be OK.
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Yeah, "drat" or maybe "dagnabbit" was probably about it, she was pretty low-key.
 
ancientdad said:
Yeah, "drat" or maybe "dagnabbit" was probably about it, she was pretty low-key.
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I know what you mean. I never heard my grandmother say a curse word in spite of everything I did which should have made her eligible for sainthood for not throttling me. Of course she had the look and that was enough to make me behave.
 
OK got most of the case bolts on order, Found the two 6mmX125mm bolts on ebay for a bit more then I would like to have paid for 2 bolts but it was free shipping so helps. Found the 6mmX80mm and 6mmX90mm at home depot in packs of two with free shipping at a reasonable cost. The 6mmX40mm is supposed to be available at my local Lowes which leaves the oddball 6mmX63mm of which there is only one listing I have seen on ebay for $17.00 and I refuse to pay that. Lowes and Home Depot are both supposed to have 6mmX65mm bolts so I think I will get a couple and cut the threads down a bit as needed with a die and and then cut the bolt off to the correct length. Hopefully I will have another go at closing up the bottom end next week.
 
stl360+450 said:
Hopefully that scavenger hunt will be worth the effort.
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I hope so cause I really don't want to have another practice session. Thankfully I believe I have all new screws for the covers so hopefully no troubles there. I guess I can take the time to cleanup the garage and organize parts I plan on using and those that are extra.
 
Reading this thread, I realize that hardware for these bike is hard to get in the US, since the metric system is absent. Here, in Europe, one can get every bolt size, in every length, as long it's a standard length. However, the bolts on these bikes are specials in itself, flange bolts with a quality stamp on the bolt head are also rare here. If someone does a serious nuts and bolts resto, you can always drop a pm to see I have it and what the costs are for buying and shipping.
 
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Most of the smaller fasteners are readily available direct from Honda but as you say some of the hardware is hard to find so the offer is appreciated. One of the vendors I was looking at was Honda4parts.nl from the Netherlands and they had a couple of the bolts needed at a more reasonable cost. I guess the hunt for these elusive parts we need is part of the allure and challenge to the project.
 
That's a shame you got that far only to have a bolt snap on you. Very discouraging. I will be closing my cases shortly, hope I don't run into the same problems.
Hope you find all of the necessary hardware.
 
boddy said:
That's a shame you got that far only to have a bolt snap on you. Very discouraging. I will be closing my cases shortly, hope I don't run into the same problems.
Hope you find all of the necessary hardware.
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Not really that bad, at least I was able to run the broken part of the bolt back out of the hole with a left hand bit without drilling or putting in a Helicoil. Also the Hondabond 4 had not cured that much so was easy to clean up with brake cleaner. Looks like I have all new bolts sourced so hopefully will go well. The 80 mm and 90 mm bolts are available from Home Depot and are inexpensive so perhaps worthwhile getting them at least if they are available in Canada.
 
Can't say that I've seen too much selection at my local Home Depot aside from 6mm washers and nuts. I will check it out though, as spares are always good to have.
 
boddy said:
Can't say that I've seen too much selection at my local Home Depot aside from 6mm washers and nuts. I will check it out though, as spares are always good to have.
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Sorry I should have said they are only available on line here but with free shipping. Let me know if you want and I can order and mail for you.
 
Got the 2 M6X125mm bolts I ordered on ebay today. Fast delivery and very well packaged. Being a bit OCD after having a problem I compared the new bolts to the old ones and noticed while the overall lenght is the same the threads on the new bolts are not cut quite as deep on the shank. I tried one in the upper case in several holes to see if there would be an issue where it would bottom out before tightening but seemed like it will be OK. Bolts are not Honda OEM but supposed to be made in Japan. Just throwing this out there to be sure to double check aftermarket parts or even new Honda parts which may not be made to the same spec as the ones from years past.

Bolt on the left the one that failed, new bolt in the center and good old bolt on the right.
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ballbearian said:
You can see the threads stretched on the one that failed. I look for that and if it's stretched, it's junk.
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Yep. Good call on the replacement the “good” one of the older bolts appears to have one foot hovering above the grave as well.

@RobMan care to share that eBay vendor? Some of those weird bolts are needles in a haystack, and haystack hunts on eBay for me usually end up with more projects.
 
EzPete said:
Yep. Good call on the replacement the “good” one of the older bolts appears to have one foot hovering above the grave as well.

@RobMan care to share that eBay vendor? Some of those weird bolts are needles in a haystack, and haystack hunts on eBay for me usually end up with more projects.
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Happy to share the vendor but I think it was more chance than anything that he had these bolts, Mostly a book seller with some random Honda parts and a parted out CB160.

Garage Book Cafe


Security Measure | eBay

www.ebay.com www.ebay.com
 
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Got the bottom end buttoned up today after getting al the new bolts. Honda appears to have decided that a 65mm bolt is a suitable sub for a 63mm I was unable to get a M6X63mm bolt from Honda so got a new 65mm I picked up from Lowes. Cut it down the required amount and prepared to use a die to tap some some additional thread up the shank when I realized the threaded portion was still long enough. I still used the die to dress the threads on the end where I had cut it and it seemed that the threads were a bit rough so ran the die all the way up and back to smooth it out. I repeated that on all the bolts I got from Home Depot and Lowes as it seemed the threads on all were a bit rough. Went back over both cases and cleaned sealing surfaces and the bolt holes out and then dry mounted the lower case and ran all the bolts in just snug to make sure they all fit properly. After a little more clean up I was satisfied and reapplied Hondabond. installed the lower case again and torqued all bolts to the low end of the torque specs using anti seize compound. I recommend sneaking up on the torque a little at a time so as not to over torque. Turned the engine over and kicked myself for not starting the bolts in the upper case before torquing the bottom but luckily they started easily and torqued them down as well. Decided that was enough for the moment so going to review the FSM and decide next steps, what other new parts I need if any and get ready to start some more assembly.

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Been so darn hot and humid and then with the storm on Friday really haven't got much done besides look at the FSM and the parts breakdown. Looks like a pretty day today so I think I will take the S90 out and exercise it a bit and survey the local damage. After that dig out the oil pump and clutch parts and start inspecting and measuring to see if what I have is serviceable or if more parts need to be ordered and get started with reassembly again.
 
Been looking at the oil pump and clutch parts and wondered if anyone has the oil pump piston and cylinder specification, new and service limits? I have looked in the FSM and if it is listed I am missing them. Thanks.
 
I'm not sure it's in the FSM, been too long since my oiling issues. I think Jay did the measurements at some point. Honestly, unless the piston and/or the bore is horribly scuffed or gouged, it's usually serviceable. I was more concerned about it myself back when I first put my engine together and bought a NOS pump body, but the "wristpin" marks on the bore showed up the first time I took it back apart so it isn't a big deal. You could always go with a new pump from Jay...
 
Thanks I appreciate the feedback on that and I would love to get one of Jay’s oil pumps, but at this point with the money I have invested in this project I’m going to hold although I may do it later if it all works out well.
 
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