1972 CB450 K5 Hot Mess

Thanks everyone. I should be able to figure it out now. I have 2 stators and both are in basically the same condition and both need some wire repair or as @boddy did replace them. I have checked them both for resistance between pairs and ground to case and didn't see any problems there so think they are good.
 
Still have the crankshaft soaking and occasionally rotating and flushing the rod big ends and left the container out in sun for a bit today to warm up the kerosene to see if that helps. Getting a bit more crud out but seems to be less and less. Checked both of the stators I have and they appear to good just going by by resistance testing but both need to have the wiring replaced along with new connectors and pins. Found a small crack in the alternator cover which I repaired with JB Weld. Got the lower case and the left side cover back from the machinist where he removed the broken bolt in the lower case and 3 screws holding the oil filter cover on which I could not get out. With those returned I am starting case and cover cleanup and will have to decide what to paint and what to shine. Not exciting work but feels like progress.


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Looks like you're making progress with the crankshaft, I still have that ahead of me. And the obligatory shifter crack in the alternator cover... probably 3 out of 5 have one. Mine was just a big gouge but no crack or leak, now it's polished 'patina'
 
ancientdad said:
Looks like you're making progress with the crankshaft, I still have that ahead of me. And the obligatory shifter crack in the alternator cover... probably 3 out of 5 have one. Mine was just a big gouge but no crack or leak, now it's polished 'patina'
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Not used to using my phone on the forum. I meant to say my cover looked fine from the outside until I noticed a very small dent in the black paint and took a better look on the back. Going to polish and the paint the Honda area black again. The other cover has a big gouge as well. Kinda the same deal on the oil filter covers. One is scuffed pretty badly but the other looks much better. The donor engine has paid for itself and then some.
 
Making progress like a dedicated sloth, slow but steady. I am calling the crankshaft clean today, it has been soaking for over a week with periodic flushing and turning and finally using the cut and slightly frayed end of a Bowden cable as @jensen and @boddy suggested and I was able to confirm the big end piston rod passage is clear to the plugs on both journals and while I couldn't see in the opening I could go by feel and the cable seemed to slide smoothly after cleaning for a bit and appeared to flush clean. Let the kerosene drain and then dried it off. Sprayed WD40 through all the passages and on all the machined surfaces, actually the whole darn thing to make sure nothing rusts before I put it together. I am going to use a syringe to shoot oil into the journal later as well.

Stripped, prepped and painted the upper and lower engine cases on Wednesday and have them in the garage where the daytime heat is probably in the high 90's with the garage door closed and going to let them sit for a week or 10 days while the paint cures. I would like to cure in the oven but martial bliss doesn't see that as an option. :unsure:


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Started to polish up the side covers today but got looking at the 2 drive chain covers I have and noticed some issues with both of them. The cover off the 72 CB450 has a really badly worn opening where the gear shift spindle comes out but the one from the donor engine is in much better shape although it is still a bit loose. I did come up with a possible repair for the one that is badly worn out of my odds and ends collection, a starter motor brass bushing possibly from a 1997 Chevy Blazer (not for sure) that looks to be almost a perfect fit with just a bit of machining to open up the spindle opening in the cover. It does fit the spindle itself perfectly. IMG_4453.JPG



The other issues involved the clutch adjusters both of which were frozen and would not turn so required disassembly and cleaning and some light sanding. The clutch adjuster from the one with the worn hole is also badly worn with a lot of rocking play where the clutch lifter threads into the adjuster but again the donor mechanism is in much better shape but with one caveat. The POs answer to the frozen adjuster was drive a screwdriver into the slot and when I disassembled it I found the bit that had been knocked out inside the adjuster embedded in the grease. A good cleaning and a dab of JB Weld will take care of the issue though. On a brighter note both the cable hooks were in good shape which from reading other forums is very often not the case.

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I’m not so sure you can call that the “donor engine” much longer!

Coming along nicely
 
Took advantage of the cooler weather with the much needed light rain we had this morning and started some reassembling of the engine bottom end. Only got the kick starter assembly done and the shifter spindle oil seal installed in the lower case so made some progress. Next step would be starting on the upper case but I admit to lack of mojo so decided to take a look at the starter off the 72 and the starter and part of a starter (no armature) that were in the tote of spare parts I got when I picked up the donor engine. After actually laying them side by side I realized I only had one CB450 starter and 2 starters that may have come off a Honda. In the pic the 450 starter is the one to the left and has had a welded repair done. If anyone knows what bike the other starters come from let me know.They are marked Mitsuba SM-224 but missing the final characters on the part number to identify what bike they went to. If anyone knows what bike they go to and thinks they can use them let me know and would only cost shipping.

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If the final missing number is a one, as in SM-2241, I found this.

www.maniacelectricmotors.com

Starter for Yamaha Mitsuba SM-2241, Yamaha 42X-81800-60-00, 42X-81890-00-00 - 18727N

Starter Mitsuba PLGR SPECS:0.6kW/12 Volt, CW, 31-Spline Shaft // Cross Reference Mitsuba SM-2241, Yamaha 42X-81800-60-00, 42X-81890-00-00 // Other 18727 <h3.Applications</h3> <b>Yamaha Street Motorcycle </b> <br> XV700 Virago 699cc 1984-1987 <br> XV750 Virago 748cc 1984-1987 <br> XV750 Virago...
www.maniacelectricmotors.com
 
Decided to tear down my starter to see what kind of shape it is in and to be expected very dirty with evidence of shade tree repairs, like electrical tape stuffed under the field coil along the edge and wrapped around the insulated brush lead. Very old grease but the planetary gears turned OK. I removed the circlip at the splined end as well as the triangle clip that holds the bearing in place. Set the housing on a couple blocks and gave the shaft a couple of whacks with my plastic mallet expecting it come loose but no joy. Tried heat with no luck so letting it soak in some Kroil. Also looks like one pin bearing fell out when I whacked it. Does the splined shaft need to be pressed out of the bearing.

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In any event I think the starter is pretty much a write off as the field coils appear to be grounded to the case which is not good if I remember my basic starter troubleshooting. Someone correct me if I am misremembering my basic electricity. I wonder if the welding that was done to the rear housing was done with the starter assembled and shorted the coils out somehow. Looks like new ones are available from Rick's Motorsport Electrics for $225.00 and a couple of used ones on Ebay for way too much. There is a local starter and generator shop I may check with that advertises motorcycle starter repair.

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My reaction is, if you can afford it you should replace the starter. The Ebay situation looks like there are quite a few for sale, so pick the one you like and make an low-ball offer. Also, there's a section here for parts for sale, so you could look there. The one you have looks pretty well shot that I can see from here. Did it ever turn at all?
 
wentwest said:
My reaction is, if you can afford it you should replace the starter. The Ebay situation looks like there are quite a few for sale, so pick the one you like and make an low-ball offer. Also, there's a section here for parts for sale, so you could look there. The one you have looks pretty well shot that I can see from here. Did it ever turn at all?
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I didn't even try to spin it up considering the state the bike was in when I got it I knew I would be tearing it down to at least clean and replaces the brushes and such. I will keep an eye on Ebay and see if one turns up that looks good.
 
stl360+450 said:
I may have a spare starter, but will have to check when I return from a trip in about a week. If I have one, I'll be happy to send it your way.
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If you have one I would really appreciate that. I am hesitant to buy a used one on ebay even if it is advertised as working so happy to pay what its worth from a trusted source. When you get back please PM me and thank you.
 
Kinda in a hold pattern at the moment with the engine reassembly. I have historically always reused circlips if they look OK but after reading in the various threads about correct positioning of circlips and the issues some people have had if if they come loose so ordered new ones for the transmission, kick starter and shift spindle. It will probably be a couple of weeks as the vendor has to order some of them from his supplier which is in Europe. I also need to rewire one of my stators as the wire is in poor shape with insulation peeling off on one and on the other stator one wire had been cut and repaired by twisting and electrical tape so ordered several of the round 6 pin connectors from Vintage Connections which should be here next week. BTW in case anyone else wonders the connectors do come with a complete set of male and female pins even though the picture only shows one of each.
 
RobMan said:
Making progress like a dedicated sloth, slow but steady. I am calling the crankshaft clean today, it has been soaking for over a week with periodic flushing and turning and finally using the cut and slightly frayed end of a Bowden cable as @jensen and @boddy suggested and I was able to confirm the big end piston rod passage is clear to the plugs on both journals and while I couldn't see in the opening I could go by feel and the cable seemed to slide smoothly after cleaning for a bit and appeared to flush clean. Let the kerosene drain and then dried it off. Sprayed WD40 through all the passages and on all the machined surfaces, actually the whole darn thing to make sure nothing rusts before I put it together. I am going to use a syringe to shoot oil into the journal later as well.
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I salute your diligence, as many have never even looked at this problem,in their rebuilds, since it takes so long for these passages to plug up. If you think about it, even the piston skirts, cylinder walls and rings relies solely on this oil supply.
 
ballbearian said:
I salute your diligence, as many have never even looked at this problem,in their rebuilds, since it takes so long for these passages to plug up. If you think about it, even the piston skirts, cylinder walls and rings relies solely on this oil supply.
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As Forest Gump said, "I'm not a smart man" but I do recognize good advice given by people who have a great deal more experience on restoring these beasts than I do and luckily I am not in a hurry although I do have to rein in my impatience to get it together and hear it run. Sweet music.
 
Working slow or working fast? It's a real conflict. When you're tearing apart an engine you can keep moving, but I tend to get ahead of my picture taking and that makes the rebuild. Putting things together I get impatient, but then I walk away. I'm only going to be inside an engine once (I hope). Dedicated sloth is a good way to say it.
 
While waiting for parts I decided to make a coin slot tool for the clutch adjuster by grinding a couple of slots in a a sacrificial 9/16 socket and welding a large flat washer to it. I am sure a proper tool exists but didn't see one after a few minutes of googling. I hate sticking a flat screwdriver in a coin slot. Critiques of the welds not allowed, I am still relearning as projects come along and it's been a long time since 9th grade FFA class. ;)

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Using a small pair of Vise-grips is what I was using as well but as you say a bit clumsy which led to the slight aggravation that prompted me to make the tool. I will say that the key should work just fine provided the adjuster is lubed and turning properly and my 3/8 drive franken-bit is a tad overkill.
 
Question for the team regarding piston ring end gap. My rings are Honda, .075 over with the one piece oil ring and when I check the end gaps the top compression rings measure between 0.0125 to 0.014 inch and the oil rings measure 0.013 and 0.016 inch out of the box. The FSM specs are:

End Gap.JPG

With the top rings right at the minimum clearance and should I have any concern about the end gap being too tight or should I be good to go. In this case I am asking the years of experience out there over the FSM. I admit to being gun shy after I did a top end rebuild on a 650 BSA years ago and I did grind the end gaps to spec in the repair manual and it ended up seizing which required a tear down honing and new rings so not too big a deal but stuck with me. Thanks.
 
My machinist won't bore to the minimum standard but midway and the new OEM rings seem to fall midway in the standard value too. I'd check top and bottom of ring travel area and definitely use an upside down piston to ensure the right angle placement for measuring.
 
ballbearian said:
My machinist won't bore to the minimum standard but midway and the new OEM rings seem to fall midway in the standard value too. I'd check top and bottom of ring travel area and definitely use an upside down piston to ensure the right angle placement for measuring.
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I did use a piston to make sure the ring was level in the bore but I did only check from the top. I trust the machinist but checking to see if I get the same ring gap at the bottom of the bore is a quick and easy confirmation.
 
RobMan said:
I did use a piston to make sure the ring was level in the bore but I did only check from the top. I trust the machinist but checking to see if I get the same ring gap at the bottom of the bore is a quick and easy confirmation.
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Only down as far as the stroke. Yeah a new bore is parallel but if you go to the minimum, it may be worth checking.
 
Yes I said bottom but meant about 2/3 of the way from the top or about where the lowest point the rings hit in the cylinder. Gap appears to be about the same just going by feel of the feeler gauge but with the spread of the service limit as large as it is I may go ahead and take a couple of thousandths off the compression rings just to sooth my nerves. I would rather accept a tiny bit more blow by than possibly having a piston seize.
 
Ordered some circlips from Northeastern Vintage Cycle last week and received them today. When I opened the mailing envelope I was a bit concerned from the packaging at first but it did have the right Honda clips I ordered. Very vintage parts envelope, Not Honda but I think I may have to frame it. I would love to be able to look around this guys shop.

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RobMan said:
Ordered some circlips from Northeastern Vintage Cycle last week and received them today. When I opened the mailing envelope I was a bit concerned from the packaging at first but it did have the right Honda clips I ordered. Very vintage parts envelope, Not Honda but I think I may have to frame it. I would love to be able to look around this guys shop.

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That place was the last one on earth that had the Honda spoke plates for the comstars and I got them in a Suzuki bag like that.never thought about framing it, but that would have been some cool shop art.
 
EzPete said:
That place was the last one on earth that had the Honda spoke plates for the comstars and I got them in a Suzuki bag like that.never thought about framing it, but that would have been some cool shop art.
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I have found parts in some interesting places so far. His prices were better then ebay and other shops I looked at and he was able to get almost all the circlips I needed for the engine except for 32mm clip for the oil pump connecting rod and the 12 mm one for the shift spindle although it shows as available on his website. I am thinking shop art for the parts bag, just too cool to throw in the trash.
 
Well time for some updates. First off I am still in North Carolina as I had to canceled my trip to Kansas and Oklahoma until this fall, so some disappointments, not seeing family is the biggie but as they say life happened so the delay couldn't be helped. A power outage the day before I was supposed to leave convinced me that I couldn't leave my wife to deal with something like that especially with the heat we are having without a better generator setup then we have now. I have no issues with our current setup but she needs something more seamless so we are going to call for a Generac quote and go from there.

Another disappointment is that I was also planning a stop in St Louis to visit @stl360+450 who had more than generously offered to give me a working starter for my 450 project. He is now going to ship it to me and will not even accept the cost of shipping. I can only say thank you and I promised him I will pay it forward. I was also looking forward to seeing bis bikes in the flesh and talk some shop. I know karma does exist as shortly after his offer to me I saw where @LongDistanceRider sent him a rare side cover for his project. The caliber of people on the forum is a bit humbling.

A good note is that I finally received the title for my 450 in the mail last Thursday that I had applied for last April which makes me feel a lot better that this project will be a success.

About the only work on the bike I have been doing is redoing the wiring on one of the stators i have with poor results so far. I had used some new wire I had purchased for my S90 build but it is has silicon insulation and is quite a bit thicker then the OEM wire so have had no luck crimping the the pins for the new connector that I purchased from vintage connections. Part of the problem is the crimping tool I have is not the best and bends the pins and then still requires soldering to make sure the wire doesn't pull out. I cannibalized some OEM wire from the extra wiring harness I got with the donor engine and tried crimping a pin and think I have a technique that will work but still does require soldering. The good thing is the wiring from the old OEM harness has good color, is flexible and doesn't show any sign of corrosion under the insulation. Hopefully I will have some progress to report with my next post.
 
RobMan said:
Part of the problem is the crimping tool I have is not the best and bends the pins and then still requires soldering to make sure the wire doesn't pull out
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A quality crimping tool is a good investment. Mine is probably middle-of-the-road, but is more than adequate for my purposes. I occasionally make bad crimps with it, but it's always my fault when that happens. I had only used one of those combo wire cut/strip/crimp pliers prior and my mind was blown by the ratcheting crimping tool.

Pro'sKit 300-005 Crimper, Ratcheted, AWG 20-18, 16-14, 12-10.Non-Insulated, Open Barrel terminals, Multi https://a.co/d/8WY2XHW
 
stl360+450 said:
A quality crimping tool is a good investment. Mine is probably middle-of-the-road, but is more than adequate for my purposes. I occasionally make bad crimps with it, but it's always my fault when that happens. I had only used one of those combo wire cut/strip/crimp pliers prior and my mind was blown by the ratcheting crimping tool.

Pro'sKit 300-005 Crimper, Ratcheted, AWG 20-18, 16-14, 12-10.Non-Insulated, Open Barrel terminals, Multi https://a.co/d/8WY2XHW
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Mine is a ratcheting crimping tool kit that I got from Amazon and gets good reviews and if I am honest the problem may be more the mechanic than the tool. :unsure:
 
RobMan said:
Well time for some updates. First off I am still in North Carolina as I had to canceled my trip to Kansas and Oklahoma until this fall, so some disappointments, not seeing family is the biggie but as they say life happened so the delay couldn't be helped. A power outage the day before I was supposed to leave convinced me that I couldn't leave my wife to deal with something like that especially with the heat we are having without a better generator setup then we have now. I have no issues with our current setup but she needs something more seamless so we are going to call for a Generac quote and go from there.
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I know the feeling, our backup generator connection is definitely not seamless and my wife would not be able to accomplish it by herself either. Generacs are pricey, or we would have one ourselves. My neighbor across the street has one (in a deal provided by our local electric coop that supplied everything including dual propane tanks) so I use his blinking green light as a guide for when the power comes back on.
RobMan said:
The caliber of people on the forum is a bit humbling.
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To me, this is how a forum should be - friendly, helpful, sharing, generous within reason, like one big neighborhood of like-minded people.
RobMan said:
A good note is that I finally received the title for my 450 in the mail last Thursday that I had applied for last April which makes me feel a lot better that this project will be a success.
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Great news, and definitely worth the wait.
 
Got the stator harness done this evening, just need to do a resistance check to make sure I didn't get any of the wires mixed up when I re-soldered them to the stator for the 2nd time. I hate redoing work but the OEM wire from the extra harness worked much better when I crimped the pins for the connector and it is nice to have the correct colors. I did solder each pin and the bullet connector just to be on the safe side. The crimp tool I have works fine on the bullet connector but deforms the pins a bit. IMG_4494.jpg
 
About time to start back on the engine bottom end so I did a couple of things today. First was clean all the threaded screw and bolt holes a 2nd time with a touch of brake clean and Q tips. l then disassembled the kick starter shaft and replace the circlip with a new one I had ordered a while back. I am sure the old one was fine but I want replace the ones I can. The last thing for the as it was getting too darn hot in the garage was to see if the upper and lower cases mated together OK as the top is from the donor engine and the bottom is from the original. I also had to put a couple of knock pins in because when I took the engines apart one set of pins stayed in the top case and the other set of pins stayed in the lower case. Naturally neither set stayed in the cases I was planning to use. When I started to put the pins in the upper case one pin went in fine but the other not so much. At first I thought is was the knock pin so I robbed another from the upper case I wasn't going to use. I used the fill the hole with grease and knock a bolt down the hole method. My bolt was a little small so wrapped some electrical tape around the end to make a snug fit so the grease would not push out around it. Yay! got the pin out! Tried mating the cases together again and still had a gap, the pin was not going down the hole. Took a closer look down the hole of the knock pin with the problem with a magnifying glass (darn old eyes) and saw that there was what I think was old dried Honda Bond down in the hole. Carefully cleaned it out with a little WD 40 and a small screw driver scrapped out the hole and then cleaned with some more WD 40 and scotch brite. Success at last, cases fit together easily with no gaps I can see. It had gotten quite hot by this point so put up tools and stuff and called it a day. IMG_4497.JPG

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Nice trick for getting the knock pin out. I have used an appropriately sized drill bit inside the pin to keep it from collapsing and then used pliers to twist it out. A little emery cloth afterwards to clean up the plier marks.
 
RobMan said:
At first I thought is was the knock pin so I robbed another from the upper case I wasn't going to use. I used the fill the hole with grease and knock a bolt down the hole method. My bolt was a little small so wrapped some electrical tape around the end to make a snug fit so the grease would not push out around it. Yay! got the pin out!
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+1 New trick for my back pocket as well.
 
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