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1972 CB450 K5 Hot Mess

ancientdad said:
Looks like the kickstarter was allowed to fly back against the stop (foot slipped off the lever at or near the bottom of the stroke) and it seems to be cracked.
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I got the cases split this morning (works much better with all the bolts out, missed one of the small bottom ones at first) and took a look at the area you pointed out and definitely cracked. The upper case looked good so far and no damage at the pin area you said I should check. IMG_4355.jpgIMG_4356.jpg
 
Good news, it's just something that happens a fair amount of times so it's always best to check closely to be sure and to be careful with that during reassembly. Nice little wormy-looking creature in the upper case too. Notice how the PO (or whoever) put sealer everywhere, including over each bearing and in areas that are already sealed by crankcase covers. You'll want to only use a thin application of Hondabond on the crankcase mating surfaces only, the bearings are held by set rings and locating pins. And you have a lot of sludge to clean up. If you have a local hot rod or speed shop near you, you might inquire if they'll hot tank your upper and lower case halves to get them really clean. I did that with mine and it worked really well.
 
Thanks for taking a look and for the feedback. There are several small mechanic/hot rod shops close by so that is a good suggestion on the cleaning. Took the other engine(72 K5) cases apart but haven't took any pics to post yet.I did find that 3 of the small case bolts had been twisted off, 2 in the top case and one in the bottom. Also a couple more bolts screwed in the wrong holes. I really think the PO told his kids you fix it and you can have it..
 
This is one of those "While you're in there ..." situations. Be sure to clean the oil passages in the crankshaft and the upper crankcase half. I took out the kick start mechanism, and checked the condition of everything. They sometimes have broken teeth. I took out the splash baffles in the lower half so I could clean out a ton of sludge. Some of these jobs are tedious, but if you skip one you know there will be a problem, and you really don't want to tear the engine down again. Use new gaskets and oil seals - maybe they weren't leaking before you went in but you know they will if you skip replacing them.
 
wentwest said:
This is one of those "While you're in there ..." situations. Be sure to clean the oil passages in the crankshaft and the upper crankcase half. I took out the kick start mechanism, and checked the condition of everything. They sometimes have broken teeth. I took out the splash baffles in the lower half so I could clean out a ton of sludge. Some of these jobs are tedious, but if you skip one you know there will be a problem, and you really don't want to tear the engine down again. Use new gaskets and oil seals - maybe they weren't leaking before you went in but you know they will if you skip replacing them.
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Thank you for the advice and it is appreciated. I plan take everything apart clean and inspect part by part comparing parts from the K5 engine that came with the bike to the K4 donor engine to use the best parts for the build. One question is the splash baffle in the lower crankcase riveted in place in the outer corners or will it come out by removing the 2 screws in the center?
 
RobMan said:
Thank you for the advice and it is appreciated. I plan take everything apart clean and inspect part by part comparing parts from the K5 engine that came with the bike to the K4 donor engine to use the best parts for the build. One question is the splash baffle in the lower crankcase riveted in place in the outer corners or will it come out by removing the 2 screws in the center?
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On my K0 CB450 engine the baffles were held in place by a rod that ran across from side to side. The baffles sat on a land at each end and they were held down in the middle just enough to squeeze fit that rod. Don't push them down too much or you'll bend them, and them you'll have to unbend them again and every time you do that they get weaker.

These are what mine look like, from an Ebay ad:

Windage trays
 
wentwest said:
On my K0 CB450 engine the baffles were held in place by a rod that ran across from side to side. The baffles sat on a land at each end and they were held down in the middle just enough to squeeze fit that rod. Don't push them down too much or you'll bend them, and them you'll have to unbend them again and every time you do that they get weaker.

These are what mine look like, from an Ebay ad:

Windage trays
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The baffles appear to be made and attach differently then mine on the K5. I did find a thread on another forum that discusses removing the plate and if there is any need to remove them to clean and @ancientdad had already suggested taking the cases and have them cleaned in a hot tank so I think I will leave well enough alone and just clean them up as is..
 
RobMan said:
will it come out by removing the 2 screws in the center?
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No. the four mushroom swaged heads must be ground off or, as I have suggested but no one has tried or reported it, circumcised with a diamond or carbide hollow hole bit. Then re-peened over after it is replaced.
There has been lengthy discussions on removal, or not, of windage trays that are fixed in this manner.
 
RobMan said:
The baffles appear to be made and attach differently then mine on the K5. I did find a thread on another forum that discusses removing the plate and if there is any need to remove them to clean and @ancientdad had already suggested taking the cases and have them cleaned in a hot tank so I think I will leave well enough alone and just clean them up as is..
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With the advent of fairly cheap inspection cameras, one can verify it's clean.
 
wentwest said:
Sorry, my mistake. The K0 makes it easy, but Honda didn't approve, I guess.
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No worries, your thoughts were in the right place. I tend not to remove the later windage trays unless absolutely necessary because of the need to drill and tap the posts for replacement bolts, but if it's bad enough under it and a hot tank wash won't get it all then you do what you have to do. When I got my cases hot tanked it cleaned up all the gunk under the windage tray so I didn't have to.
 
Nice. Now give the cylinder walls a good shot of WD40 until you're ready to assemble.
Once ready to assemble you need to scrub the cylinder walls with hot soapy water, Dawn works best. Once you think it's clean wipe the cylinders out with a White lint free cloth. IF it's clean the cloth stays white, if not white the repeat until it does.
All paper products leave lint behind.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
Nice. Now give the cylinder walls a good shot of WD40 until you're ready to assemble.
Once ready to assemble you need to scrub the cylinder walls with hot soapy water, Dawn works best. Once you think it's clean wipe the cylinders out with a White lint free cloth. IF it's clean the cloth stays white, if not white the repeat until it does.
All paper products leave lint behind.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice and this is what the machinist told me to do. He said the oil on the cylinder walls right now is honing oil. At my age I do need extra reminders. :rolleyes:
 
I was starting to compile a consumables list with things like anti seize compound and such and looked up Hondabond and found two different types, Hondabond 4 and Hondabond HT. From what I have read it looks like Hondabond 4 would be the sealant needed when I finally get ready to put the upper and lower cases back together and typically sealant is really not used anywhere else. Am I correct in both these assumptions or or there any exceptions that I should consider.
 
RobMan said:
I was starting to compile a consumables list with things like anti seize compound and such and looked up Hondabond and found two different types, Hondabond 4 and Hondabond HT. From what I have read it looks like Hondabond 4 would be the sealant needed when I finally get ready to put the upper and lower cases back together and typically sealant is really not used anywhere else. Am I correct in both these assumptions or or there any exceptions that I should consider.
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After reading a bit more I think I have answered my own question and will use Hondabond 4 as the HT is thicker and silicone so might cause issues if some squeezes off inside the case.
 
boddy said:
I believe the Hondabond HT is designed for metal to metal surfaces whereas the Hondabond 4 is for use with gasket material. I personally plan to use the HT for my cases.
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Thanks for the input on this issue. I have spent a great deal of time reading differing opinions in a number of forums where the topic typically gets lost in other conversation without a clear answer. I just finished reading through your thread "71ish CB450 build" with great interest and has answered some questions I had such as how do I check the torque on the valve spring torsion bars. I am going through my stash of mixed sockets tomorrow and see if I have an extra 3/4 deep well inch socket to modify.
 
Feel like I made some good progress by getting the head put together today. Had been on hold for some O rings and other parts to come in as well as a bunch of Honey Do's that my better half asked me to do. Really appreciated the DOHC 450/500T head assembly thread that @ancientdad had previously posted which really helped. Had a little fun getting the tach drive side to come together and finally marked the housing and cam with a sharpie to help line up everything. I think the gaskets in the 4into1 kit are a bit thinner then the gaskets that came off as I had to remove one cam shim from when I temp put it together earlier using the old gaskets and had plenty of clearence then. Actually it was a good thing I had to take it apart because I realized that the 10 MM thrust washer was missing at the end of the tach drive pinion so luckily got the one from the donor engine. I don't think I lost it when I disassembled the engine and it may be on the work bench or floor or just not put back in by the PO's attemp at a rebuild. I have the cam covers temp installed to keep the mice or mud daubers from deciding it would make a great home. :)

Also a shout out to everyone who encourages members to invest in a JIS bit and T handle set. Regular Phillips bits seem fine until you try a JIS bit in new screws and they feel like they lock in place! Speaking of screws don't take the CB 450 K1-5 parts catalog as gospel as I found some errors in screw sizes and quantities required such as it saying to use 6X28mm screws for the point cam cover under the advancer and it uses 6X22 according to another catalog I found on line CB450 K3-7. It is a PDF copy done from microfiche and seems like they corrected a couple things from the previous version of the catalog. Luckily the old screws were in great shape so I reused them. Anyway I feel quite satisfied that I got the head done and set to the side and ready to install. Next step is to start cleaning the upper and lower cases and do a really good look with them cleaned up.

IMG_4377.jpg
 
I went through this process a couple of months ago, and I remember the feeling that I had to do it right the first time, because I sure didn't want to go back in after the whole thing was together and in the frame. What you are reporting is exactly that. Carry on, one step after the next, and if you run into a moment when you're not sure about something, ask. I did, I got answers, and life was better.
 
wentwest said:
I went through this process a couple of months ago, and I remember the feeling that I had to do it right the first time, because I sure didn't want to go back in after the whole thing was together and in the frame. What you are reporting is exactly that. Carry on, one step after the next, and if you run into a moment when you're not sure about something, ask. I did, I got answers, and life was better.
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I came into this project figuring that it was going to be a 2 year or more project but I find that I really want to have the bike ready by next spring and I do want it right the first time at least mechanically. There is so much great information here that I almost go into overload with the gotta remember this tip and oh yeah add that thread to my watch list and on and on.:eek: I did enjoy the moment when I looked at the head and told myself OK your ready. I rewarded myself with Southern Comfort over ice (more ice than Comfort) and a cigar on the deck. When I can actually fire the engine up and hear it run I will indulge in some Makers Mark perhaps. :)
 
Got to work on the lower case today and pulled the kick start spindle out and started cleaning the case out. My work space is limited so no parts washer so used old school method and scraped out what I could of the gunk and then put the case in a clear plastic tote and poured on some kerosene and went to work with the parts brush. I also used a bore type brass brush to work under the surge plate or windage plate I think it is called. After cleaning I was left with some nasty kerosene so started to pour if off to a jug for later disposal and noticed shiny sparkles. Since I knew it wasn't gold I figured aluminum or steel so tipped the tote to one corner for a bit to let it settle then stuck my magnet in the corner. The pic shows what I came up with which is only a portion of what was there I am sure. The end of the magnet is about 13 mm diameter.

IMG_4381.jpg
 
After finishing with the lower case for the day I had a few minutes before dinner so started looking at the shift forks. I admit to limited knowledge on transmissions but the shift forks showed some wear with the worst marked in the 2nd picture. The hammer head area (I suppose you would call it) is worn flat. I am assuming that is "not good" and I will have to do a close inspection to the area where that forks rides to see if there is corresponding wear there. I did a quick check on line for the shift forks and if they have them they are very proud of them $160-$170. I haven't looked at the forks from the donor engine yet but crossing my fingers. I am wondering if these could be repaired by a spot weld on the worn head and machine it back to shape. May cause the fork to warp or some other reason not feasible but wondering is there is a repair for them.
IMG_4382.jpgIMG_4383.jpg
 
Those shift forks are pretty worn, which accounts for the metal bits in your oil. I would inspect the gears for similar wear. You might want to look at your donor engine for some of these parts.
 
boddy said:
Those shift forks are pretty worn, which accounts for the metal bits in your oil. I would inspect the gears for similar wear. You might want to look at your donor engine for some of these parts.
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Maybe a dumb question on my part, but what are the shift forks made out of? It looks like aluminum, which wouldn't be magnetic.
 
I am crossing my fingers for the forks from the donor engine which so far has paid for itself with an exhaust valve, intake cam, gear shift spindle, upper engine case, tach drive shim and possibly a couple of other things I don't remember. I has it's own problems with a crack in the lower case around the kick start area pointed out by @ancientdad and a broken valve guide in the head.
 
The shift forks are both done, one is worse than the other. In addition to the wear on the tips of the forks, there's also half-circular wear on the 'cutout' area below the tips. That usually indicates the fork got slightly bent and the gear it moves started grinding away at an area of the fork it isn't supposed to touch. While it's all apart, check the grooves in the shift drum for wear at the "tips" of directional changes in the grooves, sometimes the hardened shift fork pins will wear away the edges of the groove in the drum where directional changes happen.
 
Just when I thought I had seen most of the weirdness the engine had to offer then I pulled the crank! As soon as it came out of the upper engine case the center race on the clutch side slid off the bearing retainer and for a moment I thought "Oh Crap" bearings everywhere! But even worse no bearings fell because there were no bearings in the retainer. The other center bearing and both end bearings appear to have full sets. I looked at the retainer to see if it was damaged but looked OK. I also noticed that the Snap Ring on the alternator side has had one of the ends snapped off. As I can only handle a certain amount of excitement I cleaned up and calling it a day. I am beginning to think that someone took the engine apart, threw it back together and it either wouldn't run or if it did run not very well or very long. Alcohol or recreational drugs were probably involved as well.

IMG_4389.JPGIMG_4384.JPG
 
Well, that's a new one for me. Can't say I've ever seen someone lose all the rollers in a main bearing and just put it together, but then again that's what people do to pass their problems on to someone else.
 
RobMan said:
Just an example of why you can never assume anything on a machine that has 40 plus years of unknown history.
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Yep, and if you had just done the top end and took it out and thrashed it after break-in, it wouldn't have last too long.

It's been said many times before here, but man if these bikes could tell their stories... some of them would be horrific.
 
boddy said:
That sucks, at least you have the donor engine as a source for the missing parts.
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Absolutely and so far it has been a good investment. I took a look at it this morning and the shift forks are all in decent shape and usable I think and when I pulled the crank all the bearings were installed and the crank looked in good shape.
 
Since I knew it wasn't gold I figured aluminum or steel so tipped the tote to one corner for a bit to let it settle then stuck my magnet in the corner. The pic shows what I came up with which is only a portion of what was there I am sure. The end of the magnet is about 13 mm diameter.
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But even worse no bearings fell because there were no bearings in the retainer.
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It could be that these observations are related with each other. There is just too much material on the magnet from only the forks.

The shift forks are bicolored, a steel color, and an aluminum-like color. The bright part is hardened differently than the rest, and if these particles are floating in the oil, they will damage other parts as well, like rollers in a crank. The reason that these particles are situated in the cases tells me that the spinner filter didn't catch them, either too low in rpm or using a highly detergent oil (washing the particles out of the spinning filter).
 
The cylinders on this bike were very worn, about .2 mm or almost the first oversize. The piston skirts were very worn as well so I think most of what I was seeing came from there. It mostly came out of thick sludge in the bottom of the crankcase about 2-3 mm thick.
 
When a sleeve is worn, it won't result in visible particles of steel, but in a kind of steel sludge. Larger particles are parts of damage, not wear. I think that the PO put this engine together without wanting to spend money, not replacing worn parts. I simply don't believe that someone would not put the bearing rollers back when they're fine. A bit of grease in the retainer, and push the rollers in isn't that difficult. In the past, I came across engines with damaged rollers, sometimes they disintegrate, producing particles just like you show, and sometimes the rollers are "shaved", resulting in shiny flakes. The second issue is almost always oil absence, the first one, like yours, from damages due to hard particles getting in between the roller and crank surface and crank bearing. Since the rollers are crushing hardened particles, particles of the roller break out, those particles are being crushed by the rollers etc.

I can only share my experience and give advice.
 
jensen said:
When a sleeve is worn, it won't result in visible particles of steel, but in a kind of steel sludge. Larger particles are parts of damage, not wear. I think that the PO put this engine together without wanting to spend money, not replacing worn parts. I simply don't believe that someone would not put the bearing rollers back when they're fine. A bit of grease in the retainer, and push the rollers in isn't that difficult. In the past, I came across engines with damaged rollers, sometimes they disintegrate, producing particles just like you show, and sometimes the rollers are "shaved", resulting in shiny flakes. The second issue is almost always oil absence, the first one, like yours, from damages due to hard particles getting in between the roller and crank surface and crank bearing. Since the rollers are crushing hardened particles, particles of the roller break out, those particles are being crushed by the rollers etc.

I can only share my experience and give advice.
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I do appreciate the advice and your willingness to give it but I am puzzled with the state I have found this engine. Some of the things I have found remind me of myself when I first started working on cars and trucks with inexperience and being in a hurry. An example was a 289 cu in engine out of a 1965 Ford Mustang that belonged to my cousin. We were about 16 and did an all nighter in an old barn with no light other than flashlights. Pulled the engine, tore it down and then did a quickie rebuild, gaskets rings and bearings. Finished around daybreak and yes we got it started. Much noise and smoke, shut it down. Towed it to our High School where we were both enrolled in automotive classes and our shop teacher assisted as a class project in doing a proper rebuild and pointed out several error such as a missing rod bearing and several rings installed upside down. I think there was more but I try not to remember. :rolleyes:
 
Removed the the shift drum and forks from both cases. Did a quick check of all the fork ends with a micrometer and I think I have at lease one good set although I want to do a more critical inspection and check for bending as well. Both "Pizza Cutters" are shot. I need to the check both neutral stoppers to see if one of them is usable or not. I have a couple of broken case bolts that I will need to take to the machinist and have him remove and repair if needed.

IMG_4396.JPG
 
Here is a pic of the donor engine lower case which I am not planning to use showing the crack next to the kick starter that @ancientdad pointed out in in an earlier post from the exterior of the case. Is this a fairly common issue and can the case be repaired if needed?

IMG_4398.JPG
 
RobMan said:
Removed the the shift drum and forks from both cases. Did a quick check of all the fork ends with a micrometer and I think I have at lease one good set although I want to do a more critical inspection and check for bending as well. Both "Pizza Cutters" are shot. I need to the check both neutral stoppers to see if one of them is usable or not. I have a couple of broken case bolts that I will need to take to the machinist and have him remove and repair if needed.
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That might be the new worst pizza cutter I've seen. Some serious slop in that shaft, it had to be shifting like complete crap between 2nd and 3rd every time. Good thing the neutral detents are still available cheap, and of course the new repro pizza cutter from NOS Parts Now.

pizza.png

Are the shift forks in the picture the ones you feel are usable?
 
RobMan said:
Here is a pic of the donor engine lower case which I am not planning to use showing the crack next to the kick starter that @ancientdad pointed out in in an earlier post from the exterior of the case. Is this a fairly common issue and can the case be repaired if needed?
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If you can find someone who can heliarc or other way of welding aluminum, I'd think it could be welded to strengthen it.
 
ancientdad said:
That might be the new worst pizza cutter I've seen. Some serious slop in that shaft, it had to be shifting like complete crap between 2nd and 3rd every time. Good thing the neutral detents are still available cheap, and of course the new repro pizza cutter from NOS Parts Now.

View attachment 33192

Are the shift forks in the picture the ones you feel are usable?
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I will be ordering a pizza cutter for sure. The one in the picture is from the CB and is the worst one but the other one isn't much better. As for the neutral detents both have some perceptible play about 3-4 thousandths. Would that require replacement? I am going to post some pictures of both sets of shift forks from the CL and CB and ask your opinion.
 
Here are images of the forks from the CL450 donor engine which seem to be in decent shape to me. I rotated them 90 degrees to try to show wear as best I can.

IMG_4406.JPGIMG_4407.JPGIMG_4408.JPGIMG_4409.JPG
 
Here are pics of the forks from the CB450. The left fork is pretty much a fishing weight unless there is a way to repair these.

IMG_4411.JPGIMG_4412.JPGIMG_4413.JPGIMG_4414.JPG
 
RobMan said:
As for the neutral detents both have some perceptible play about 3-4 thousandths. Would that require replacement?
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I just looked for the neutral stopper (24440-292-010) again and now CMSNL Partzilla and David Silver are out of stock, despite a year or so ago there being quite a few available. I might have a new one left, I'll check because I believe I bought a few of them back when there were many and they were cheap. Otherwise, it isn't nearly as big a deal as the larger one is and one of yours with the least slop would do.

Definitely do not pay these prices, ridiculous

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