1971 CL450 that sat for 40 years.

Well, I’m pretty sure I just shot myself in the foot. I have just made my 1st mistake working on this bike.

I first started by removing the intake valve cover. Then I started with the left intake camshaft cover. I thought that I had the left intake valve fully closed, to relieve the tension. I removed the three bolts, and then the nut that’s over the follower shaft. Upon trying to remove this cover, I wrongly assumed that the cover just had built up gunk and wouldn’t budge. (This was because the tension was still present). After doing some wiggling, the cover/cam bearing broke free along with the follower shaft falling out. Nothing seems to be worn or damaged. I cleaned up the side cover/cam bearing. And then applied a new gasket. This took about 30 mins of fine scrubbing to remove the old baked-in gasket.

The current problem: I know a mistake was made, and just for testing purposes, I tried gently putting the follower shaft back in its assigned hole. The follower shaft spins freely 360 degrees. I’ll post some pictures soon here in a couple of hours. My stomach is currently flipped over.

Note: I have not under any circumstances tried to turn the engine over manually with the follower shaft out of the engine.
 
This is why I suggested reading and re-reading everything.

It's likely the follower shaft spins freely because it isn't actually in the follower, because the cam lobe is pressing on the follower.

I'm never again suggesting that anyone can do this with the engine in the frame.
 
After letting myself cool down for a few minutes, I think you can save yourself from this.

But, you will have to READ CAREFULLY AND FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS.

When you're ready to do that, I'll explain further.
 
This error was 100% due to my negligence, not anyone else’s fault. I’ll be back home in about two hours. My full attention will be ready then. I can provide whatever pictures/details that you need.
 
Danager4792 said:
Well, I’m pretty sure I just shot myself in the foot. I have just made my 1st mistake working on this bike.

I first started by removing the intake valve cover. Then I started with the left intake camshaft cover. I thought that I had the left intake valve fully closed, to relieve the tension. I removed the three bolts, and then the nut that’s over the follower shaft. Upon trying to remove this cover, I wrongly assumed that the cover just had built up gunk and wouldn’t budge. (This was because the tension was still present). After doing some wiggling, the cover/cam bearing broke free along with the follower shaft falling out. Nothing seems to be worn or damaged. I cleaned up the side cover/cam bearing. And then applied a new gasket. This took about 30 mins of fine scrubbing to remove the old baked-in gasket.

The current problem: I know a mistake was made, and just for testing purposes, I tried gently putting the follower shaft back in its assigned hole. The follower shaft spins freely 360 degrees. I’ll post some pictures soon here in a couple of hours. My stomach is currently flipped over.

Note: I have not under any circumstances tried to turn the engine over manually with the follower shaft out of the
Click to expand...
At least you didn't turn it. Ask first is easier.
 
I sit down every night to watch TV with my wife around 8 pm Eastern so I only saw this just now during a break. Please do not do anything until I can go over the right way to approach this with you tomorrow morning. As long as the engine has not been rotated at all it can be fixed.
 
ancientdad said:
I sit down every night to watch TV with my wife around 8 pm Eastern so I only saw this just now during a break. Please do not do anything until I can go over the right way to approach this with you tomorrow morning. As long as the engine has not been rotated at all it can be fixed.
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Yes sir it sounds like a plan.. I was hoping to earn my VHT Private First Class stripes but I think this event calls for a demotion LOL

This pic was very painful to photograph
930BF4B7-C064-42AF-9F2C-D5E543791BA8.jpeg
 
Okay, upon further reflection and a look at that last picture above, it appears the cam lobe was not influencing the follower as much as it might have seemed in words. The panic over the loose follower is not really necessary, while it looks like it's hopelessly out of position it likely isn't, I've had them turn like that more than a few times. Though the space is limited, if you manipulate it enough you can get it back into position for the eccentric shaft.

BUT, first I want to see visual clarification of something. Or at least verbal confirmation of what looks like something more important to long term health.

valve stem.png

Is that spot on the tip of the valve stem as big a dimple as it seems to be? Obviously it's not focused and oil retention could be affecting the visual, but if the valve stem tip is indented enough to be that visible then this engine really needs a lot more than gaskets. It could be run that way if you don't plan to keep it long, but if you want this bike for the long haul you'd be better off pulling the engine and doing the top end the right way.

Try to clean it up and get a focused picture of the valve stem while I make a run to the grocery store for my wife this morning.
 
ancientdad said:
Okay, upon further reflection and a look at that last picture above, it appears the cam lobe was not influencing the follower as much as it might have seemed in words. The panic over the loose follower is not really necessary, while it looks like it's hopelessly out of position it likely isn't, I've had them turn like that more than a few times. Though the space is limited, if you manipulate it enough you can get it back into position for the eccentric shaft.

BUT, first I want to see visual clarification of something. Or at least verbal confirmation of what looks like something more important to long term health.

View attachment 25250

Is that spot on the tip of the valve stem as big a dimple as it seems to be? Obviously it's not focused and oil retention could be affecting the visual, but if the valve stem tip is indented enough to be that visible then this engine really needs a lot more than gaskets. It could be run that way if you don't plan to keep it long, but if you want this bike for the long haul you'd be better off pulling the engine and doing the top end the right way.

Try to clean it up and get a focused picture of the valve stem while I make a run to the grocery store for my wife this morning.
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After drying off that valve stem tip, I ran my finger/nail across it and it’s smooth. That ring mark is visible in the light, but not visible in the dark. My best effort at a focused picture.

8FBD519F-4C47-4000-82BC-8AE0DAF9213E.jpeg
BBD27732-37F1-41B4-BA93-55C8DB37EBCF.jpeg
1FC47079-24BD-4D40-B3A0-55E23DF35494.jpeg
 
Good, it was oil and illusion. while I was driving to the store it occurred to me that the engine in that bike may well have had a ton more miles on it than the speedo, and I still believe the dealership pulled a swap on the PO because they eventually knew they'd own the bike.

Okay, your first step is to finagle the follower out of there. It can be done, so wrangle that thing out before doing anything else and we'll move on to the next step.
 
ancientdad said:
Good, it was oil and illusion. while I was driving to the store it occurred to me that the engine in that bike may well have had a ton more miles on it than the speedo, and I still believe the dealership pulled a swap on the PO because they eventually knew they'd own the bike.

Okay, your first step is to finagle the follower out of there. It can be done, so wrangle that thing out before doing anything else and we'll move on to the next step.
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Would there be any evidence if I compared the # on the engine to the VIN number?

Also, it would be safe to publicity post my readings correct?
 
Danager4792 said:
Would there be any evidence if I compared the # on the engine to the VIN number?

Also, it would be safe to publicity post my readings correct?
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First, back then there were no true VIN on Hondas, essentially just serial numbers we refer to as frame and engine numbers which is why you often see a K4 listed as a '72 when it's really a '71 that was sold and titled after September 1, 1971. That's why we put more importance on the K series than the year. That said, the numbers very rarely match because Honda pulled engines off the assembly line randomly for testing. It's safe to post your numbers, and all we really need are the first 3 after the bike designation, like this: frame CL450-401xxxx, engine CL450E-401xxxx
 
Danager4792 said:
Frame: CL450-410
Engine: CL450E-410
Click to expand...
Both are K4, and you can look at those things too in this thread, part of your Welcome Package

Commonly requested entries from the Honda Identification Guide (US models only)

If anyone needs to identify any US Honda model built between 1959 and 1988, I have the Honda ID Guide and will be happy to look it up for you. All the usual model pages are below like the 125, 150, 160, 175, 200, 250/305, 350, 360, DOHC 450 and 500T, as well as the SOHC 400/450. Let me know if...
www.vintagehondatwins.com www.vintagehondatwins.com

However, it doesn't mean they didn't swap that engine for another K4. Based on the amount of time the bike sat at the shop and the number of seemingly original miles when it got there, plus the condition of the engine you have... I'd still be suspicious.
 
ancientdad said:
Both are K4, and you can look at those things too in this thread, part of your Welcome Package

Commonly requested entries from the Honda Identification Guide (US models only)

If anyone needs to identify any US Honda model built between 1959 and 1988, I have the Honda ID Guide and will be happy to look it up for you. All the usual model pages are below like the 125, 150, 160, 175, 200, 250/305, 350, 360, DOHC 450 and 500T, as well as the SOHC 400/450. Let me know if...
www.vintagehondatwins.com www.vintagehondatwins.com

However, it doesn't mean they didn't swap that engine for another K4. Based on the amount of time the bike sat at the shop and the number of seemingly original miles when it got there, plus the condition of the engine you have... I'd still be suspicious.
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Yeah I am on your side too.. For only “5k miles” this bike looks like it has been through the ringer. Maybe the odometer stopped working, or was swapped out with one with low mileage
 
Danager4792 said:
Yeah I am on your side too.. For only “5k miles” this bike looks like it has been through the ringer. Maybe the odometer stopped working, or was swapped out with one with low mileage
Click to expand...
I'd be inclined to believe either it was ridden really hard (difficult to fathom based on the owner story, if true) or maybe a LOT of parts were swapped off it along the years it sat there... speedo, painted parts, engine, who knows?
 
Danager4792 said:
Yes those covers are off now
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Okay. Now that the follower is out and won't cause any issues, and you can see the movement of all the valves and their positioning, put the cam bearing back on without the follower and shaft. You should be able to lift the cam a little by hand so the bearing cover slips on without force. Do that and we'll go from there.
 
ancientdad said:
Okay. Now that the follower is out and won't cause any issues, and you can see the movement of all the valves and their positioning, put the cam bearing back on without the follower and shaft. You should be able to lift the cam a little by hand so the bearing cover slips on without force. Do that and we'll go from there.
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After some gentle fidgeting, I got the bearing on this far. It would take force to move it any further.

00BF7954-796F-460C-BB0E-52F52CACF334.jpeg
 
After some more gentle persuasion and wiggling, it finally pushed in completely. Disregard previous picture/post.
 
Danager4792 said:
After some more gentle persuasion and wiggling, it finally pushed in completely. Disregard previous picture/post.
Click to expand...
Good, I was about to wonder why as it should've even if you had to lever up the cam a little bit. The goal at this point is to get the engine to rotate safely.

So the plugs are out and the valve covers are both off. Put a couple of the 4 screws in the bearing cover across from each other, finger tight so it won't try to slide off as you rotate.

Now rotate the engine slowly and watch for the same lobe you're working on to be pointing straight up, away from where the follower goes under it. Should only be a little bit. Before you do that though, let's be clear - all the screws are still in the other cam bearing covers, right?
 
Both valve covers are off
Alternator cover is off
Plugs are out
Couple of the cover bearing screws are in
All other covers are still screwed in tight

I will be slowly rotating the engine counter clockwise - towards the front wheel right? And I will be waiting for the lobe to raise to its maximum ceiling height?
 
Danager4792 said:
I will be slowly rotating the engine counter clockwise - towards the front wheel right? And I will be waiting for the lobe to raise to its maximum ceiling height?
Click to expand...
Yes to the first part.

Yes, like this, only in the engine. Lobe pointing straight up, not leaning forward at all.

450 stock cam.png
 
ancientdad said:
I'm trying to cook a pork butt and dealing with runaway temps on my smoker. And trying to keep up with new posts.
Click to expand...
Took about 5 years of trial and error but I have perfected my smoked pork butt recipe.. maybe that will be a topic of discussion one day. Smoking meats is my favorite hobby
 
ancientdad said:
When you say "recipe", do you mean the method of cooking or the rub/marinade/etc?
Click to expand...
All of the above. Start to end. Favorite seasoning combo, what internal temperature to wrap and when to pull the meat off. And proper duration of resting.
 
Danager4792 said:
All of the above. Start to end. Favorite seasoning combo, what internal temperature to wrap and when to pull the meat off. And proper duration of resting.
Click to expand...
I've done a ton of pork loins, chickens and plenty of other stuff - meatloaf, wings, burgers - and had great success but getting true pulled pork has eluded me. I bought a GMG Trek a few months ago (it isn't even completely paid for yet) and though I love how it works when it works right, it can be a bit cantankerous and have a mind of its own at times... like today, runaway temps, temp readout not always accurate being the most aggravating. I literally had to unplug it an hour ago because it ran off to almost 300° and wouldn't come back down to 225° no matter what I did, so I took the meat out, took it apart, lightly spritzed and vacuumed the few smoldering pellets that were in it out of the fire bowl and started over, losing 20 minutes of cook time. Grrr... but when it works right it's awesome.
 
ancientdad said:
I've done a ton of pork loins, chickens and plenty of other stuff - meatloaf, wings, burgers - and had great success but getting true pulled pork has eluded me. I bought a GMG Trek a few months ago (it isn't even completely paid for yet) and though I love how it works when it works right, it can be a bit cantankerous and have a mind of its own at times... like today, runaway temps, temp readout not always accurate being the most aggravating. I literally had to unplug it an hour ago because it ran off to almost 300° and wouldn't come back down to 225° no matter what I did, so I took the meat out, took it apart, lightly spritzed and vacuumed the few smoldering pellets that were in it out of the fire bowl and started over, losing 20 minutes of cook time. Grrr... but when it works right it's awesome.
Click to expand...
Pellet grills can be finicky. Mine has it’s annoying temp spikes too. It’s important to make sure the grills temp probe is clean of any black gunk. From doing a little bit of reading, people are saying to keep the left heat shield on yours at least 4.25in away from the left wall. Also to avoid grease flare ups, i will usually place some sort of aluminum tray or foil at the bottom of the grill to catch that. All of my problems usually get solved by vacuuming out the ashes at the bottom.

What problems have you had with achieving a good pulled pork?
 
Danager4792 said:
Pellet grills can be finicky. Mine has it’s annoying temp spikes too. It’s important to make sure the grills temp probe is clean of any black gunk. From doing a little bit of reading, people are saying to keep the left heat shield on yours at least 4.25in away from the left wall. Also to avoid grease flare ups, i will usually place some sort of aluminum tray or foil at the bottom of the grill to catch that. All of my problems usually get solved by vacuuming out the ashes at the bottom.

What problems have you had with achieving a good pulled pork?
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I had it long enough to use it about 10 to 12 times and have already cleaned the temp sensor at least 3 times, plus vacuumed it out after about every 5 uses. I read a lot of mentions about where the grease tray should be, but mine only moves left and right less than an inch and has a cutout for the sensor. It's this one, much smaller than the usual Traeger or other brand.

 
ancientdad said:
I had it long enough to use it about 10 to 12 times and have already cleaned the temp sensor at least 3 times, plus vacuumed it out after about every 5 uses. I read a lot of mentions about where the grease tray should be, but mine only moves left and right less than an inch and has a cutout for the sensor. It's this one, much smaller than the usual Traeger or other brand.

Click to expand...
Sometimes pellet grills will require a digital calibration as well, to adjust the feed rate. Even though the grill will hit the desired temp, the auger will still spin and feed more pellets making it hotter. Very annoying. If it persists I would definitely give customer service a call.
 
Good, now you should be able to slide the cam bearing off again and put the follower back in place. Out of curiosity, where is the right cylinder intake cam lobe positioned? Should be coming around to start opening the right intake valve.
 
ancientdad said:
Good, now you should be able to slide the cam bearing off again and put the follower back in place. Out of curiosity, where is the right cylinder intake cam lobe positioned? Should be coming around to start opening the right intake valve.
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hope these pictures help answer that.

07D46F64-F8C3-4FF7-AB46-7785BDA3DA0A.jpeg
FA25FB98-49EA-40D6-8F6E-759A94447CBD.jpeg2EEAC397-DFC5-4AA5-8084-BA30BC76BAEA.jpeg
2CC31A82-4F72-4C53-B842-3BD3CA2C3334.jpeg
 
Yep, as I expected to see. So pull the left cam bearing and try slipping the follower under the cam lobe and back in place, then slip the follower shaft back in and rotate it until you have maximum clearance (up and down movement at the tip over the valve stem). It's tricky, but as long as you keep it in that area it won't fall far if you drop it. Just don't drop it into the center where the cam chain tunnel is or it will be a while before you see it again...
 
ancientdad said:
Yep, as I expected to see. So pull the left cam bearing and try slipping the follower under the cam lobe and back in place, then slip the follower shaft back in and rotate it until you have maximum clearance (up and down movement at the tip over the valve stem). It's tricky, but as long as you keep it in that area it won't fall far if you drop it. Just don't drop it into the center where the cam chain tunnel is or it will be a while before you see it again...
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Haha. No pressure. I’ll be reporting back in a bit
 
Yep, looking good. Lift the cam a little with that 3rd hand... :LOL: and just wiggle the shaft a bit, it'll go.
 
ancientdad said:
I've done a ton of pork loins, chickens and plenty of other stuff - meatloaf, wings, burgers - and had great success but getting true pulled pork has eluded me. I bought a GMG Trek a few months ago (it isn't even completely paid for yet) and though I love how it works when it works right, it can be a bit cantankerous and have a mind of its own at times... like today, runaway temps, temp readout not always accurate being the most aggravating. I literally had to unplug it an hour ago because it ran off to almost 300° and wouldn't come back down to 225° no matter what I did, so I took the meat out, took it apart, lightly spritzed and vacuumed the few smoldering pellets that were in it out of the fire bowl and started over, losing 20 minutes of cook time. Grrr... but when it works right it's awesome.
Click to expand...
Congrats on the Green Mountain. I was looking at a Louisiana pellet smoker today. I’m still old school. I smoke everything in my charcoal Weber kettle.
 
Danager4792 said:
Good for you but sad for me. Is everything back to standard with that cam bearing cover? Any more steps?
Click to expand...
Now that you have the follower and shaft back in you can spend the time cleaning the gasket surface of the head. As Jim says, it needs to be clean enough that your mother would eat off it. Then, once the surface on the head looks like the cam bearing in cleanliness (and I just looked at it also, there are a few little spots that can be cleaner) you can button that one up. Leave the valve adjustment to later, for now (with the crankshaft in the exact same position) just rotate the eccentric shaft while lifting the follower until the follower has max clearance to the cam lobe and leave it there, it will help on the next one.

If all went as well as it seemed to (but of course, I can't see it from here) then you're out of the woods as far as any disasters go. There are 3 cam bearing gaskets alike, and one is different as you may have already seen. The oddball goes on the points side of the exhaust cam IIRC.
 
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