Nice pictures. At this point you may as well pull the cylinders to see how things are. The rings may well be stuck in the grooves and since it only got worse from sitting, that probably confirms it.
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Mousetown, my own 73 CL350
- Thread starter ballbearian
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ballbearian
Veteran Member
I'm hoping it's just the valves and the rings aren't stuck. If so, then just put a new base and head gasket on it and whistle past the grave yard?
Doing the SeaFoam therapy alone sounds iffy to me, but maybe the valves could unstick too. I just don't have the experience to make an edumacated guess like that.
Remember that left cylinder did give 160 before it sat in my garage for 3 years. Eeny meenie miny moe....
If it was mine, I'd check the cylinders best I could and put a new set of rings in it at the least, as well as check all the valves. Considering you ride all of your bikes minimally, a good used part rebuild with a fresh set of rings would run more than well enough for your purposes.
crazypj
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If your pulling head to clean things up you may as well get the cylinders off and check rings.
Probably better to do it and fit new base gasket than find it leaks after re-build and back in frame.
Check tensioner roller as well, they break up
Probably better to do it and fit new base gasket than find it leaks after re-build and back in frame.
Check tensioner roller as well, they break up
ballbearian
Veteran Member
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Hey PJ, did you see the mouse piss damage to this fork stem (K5 welded)? I've bought a replacement but now curious what you would do. There is a spot about a centimeter in diameter where the piss ate away almost through and overall probably about half gone on original thickness.
Especially from the gasket standpoint, my luck is it would leak if I didn't pull the cylinders and replace the gasket.I know you guys are right. I'm glad you guys are around.
Maraakate
Veteran Member
It's quite incredible to me how corrosive it is. That spare CB400T motor I got for the CDI bench testing had really bad mice piss damage from the intake paths. Carbs also had the same damage and you can smell it as you handle it.Hey PJ, did you see the mouse piss damage to this fork stem (K5 welded)? I've bought a replacement but now curious what you would do. There is a spot about a centimeter in diameter where the piss ate away almost through and overall probably about half gone on original thickness.
Another thing I've noticed is really check that airbox. I've seen plenty of nests built up inside the air filters. Doesn't really matter in your case since it's all stripped down, but something to keep in mind for others when getting a "new to me" bike.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Air boxes are high value real estate for mices, I found a huge one in my friends Rebel.
PJ piqued my interest with his expander plug revelation on the older stems. I would love to see one apart just for interest sake, also he would be the one, if there was any hypothetical way to fix that welded one. It's all academic to me but it never ceases to amaze me, the skills, experience and know how of our members here.
"collective" experience... which is why forums are still the best.
crazypj
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I still have it kicking around as I modified Suzuki aluminium one for GSX-R forks for 'Blue Bike'.
I'll get some pictures soon (I took some years ago but can't find them)
The rotted one could be repaired, the actual stress is on lower yoke so stem is only there to prevent top yoke moving forwards and doesn't actually see much stress.
I've had various competition bikes where there is only enough material to locate taper roller bearings then a very long 5/16" bolt does the clamping where the stem tube would normally be
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I actually get it! The expander thing and the piss rot aren't a problem. Bicycle fork stems have to do it all (shearing, torsion, etc.) and the extreme thick wall (4mm+) of the lower part of the stock stem threw me off (it's halfway rotted). There must be plenty of strength in the rotted one to be able to do what a 5/16 bolt would do. It's been replaced but I'll keep it as an educational memento.
Thanks.
Wish I could of hung out in your shop to learn stuff and add syllables.
crazypj
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The 'nicest' thing I ever overheard was from Brian Morgan when I was at Two Wheel Services (Suzuki, BMW, Vespa, Yamaha and later Ducati dealers) about two or three years after started.
'Yeah, PJ's my boss, he taught me everything I know. Just didn't teach me everything he knows'
He ended up working at local SONY factory as money was a lot better than fixing bikes and when they shut down he joined police force. (I ended up leaving shop to work on construction equipment, 50% better pay and simple by comparison to motorcycles)
I think Brian is now a detective as he's a fair bit younger than me.
'Yeah, PJ's my boss, he taught me everything I know. Just didn't teach me everything he knows'
He ended up working at local SONY factory as money was a lot better than fixing bikes and when they shut down he joined police force. (I ended up leaving shop to work on construction equipment, 50% better pay and simple by comparison to motorcycles)
I think Brian is now a detective as he's a fair bit younger than me.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Genuine good stuff. Beyond price.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Still cleaning on the practice spare motor from the Black Hole parts bike. I went to wire brush some rust around the center bearings on the crank. I noticed that there wasn't just a groove that the dge of the bearing fits into but also a lip concealing a pocket that must act as a reservoir and centrifugal separator for sludge.
I used a hooked pick and went around in the pocket to make sure nothing was in there. Whoa! There was a couple teaspoons of rusty grit accumulated in that pocket, even covering the drilling to the big end con rod bearings, which I didn't even know were there. Not sure if the FSM lubrication drawing showed this and I just missed it, or forgot, After blowing the drilling with just the plastic straw on the WD40 spray can, I just left it to sit and soak. I need to make a fine curved metal blow tip for my compressor to verify it's clear to the big ends.
I had no idea there could be that much crap hiding inside a crank's inner areas. A simple soak and spin the bearings on a crank during a clean out/rebuild is not enough. Sure, there is a lot of oil flying around in there and Honda cranks are pretty substantial in their design, but Honda put these oilways and features there for a reason. Come to think of it, a friend told me many years ago how he ruined a Triumph bottom end because he forgot/didn't know to clean out internal sludge traps in the crank.
Another lesson from the Black Hole.
I used a hooked pick and went around in the pocket to make sure nothing was in there. Whoa! There was a couple teaspoons of rusty grit accumulated in that pocket, even covering the drilling to the big end con rod bearings, which I didn't even know were there. Not sure if the FSM lubrication drawing showed this and I just missed it, or forgot, After blowing the drilling with just the plastic straw on the WD40 spray can, I just left it to sit and soak. I need to make a fine curved metal blow tip for my compressor to verify it's clear to the big ends.
I had no idea there could be that much crap hiding inside a crank's inner areas. A simple soak and spin the bearings on a crank during a clean out/rebuild is not enough. Sure, there is a lot of oil flying around in there and Honda cranks are pretty substantial in their design, but Honda put these oilways and features there for a reason. Come to think of it, a friend told me many years ago how he ruined a Triumph bottom end because he forgot/didn't know to clean out internal sludge traps in the crank.
Another lesson from the Black Hole.
Chris discovered it on a 450 crankshaft and because I'd not been in one since they were less than 10 years old long ago, I never had to clean up a crankshaft very often and never after a long sit and rust/corrode period like they can be now. I see it's the same on the 350 crank. My concern is for the stuff that gets loose and, when you do make a skinny curved tube to blow the stuff out of there, how do you get it out of the big end of the rod after that? That is, without pulling out the 20 ton press and v-blocks/dial indicators and rebuilding the crank.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I guess just spray, pray and blow (repeat). At least if something comes out around the big end (there is two notches for drip in/out ) then you know it's not totally plugged. Maybe PJ has some crank experiences to share. I know Graham Curtis in the UK has pressed 175, 160 and 150 cranks for new rods. (member here, forgot his name, G-man, I think). I have a funky 150 motor apart that I'll take a good look at it's crank someday.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Better irrigation of the crank bearings with the compressor fitted with a spray straw that did snake into the flywheel drilling to the gudgeon pin (I think that's what they're called). The WD40 was coming out pretty brown so still some dirt being flushed out. My compressor cuts off at 100psi (I need to 'fix' that) but it still helped.
Couple more pics of the Black Hole motor head. The PO went crazy with barbeque paint on the motor, right over dirt, corrosion, whatever. I had a tub full of old gas from the new 68 350 K0 so I just let it soak for a day and the paint came off with a toothbrush then a powerwasher (1700psi cheapy) blast.
Then I noticed a failed spark plug helicoil. I wonder if it could be saved. Would a timesert be better?
Couple more pics of the Black Hole motor head. The PO went crazy with barbeque paint on the motor, right over dirt, corrosion, whatever. I had a tub full of old gas from the new 68 350 K0 so I just let it soak for a day and the paint came off with a toothbrush then a powerwasher (1700psi cheapy) blast.
Then I noticed a failed spark plug helicoil. I wonder if it could be saved. Would a timesert be better?
crazypj
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Valve springs are upside down on left side of head (lower in picture)
The 'closed' coils go next to head
No 'tricks' for cleaning out crank without stripping it.
It's in effect a secondary centrifugal filter so tends to catch anything 'heavy.
I was always impressed with the oil delivery, until Honda cheaped out and started using a pressed tin plate on later (1980?) small engines.
It was probably quite expensive to make though and did make crank heavier
Guess they increased the clearances on the CD185 as that didn't seem to have same issues as the smaller twins (125-150) which were designed to make big end replacement virtually impossible.
BTW, Gudgeon pin is piston pin or 'wrist pin' in USA, I stick to what I've learned so almost always say gudgeon pin.
That's a terrible Helicoil, should be at least 1/2 turn below surface. (one full turn=better)
You can unwind it with a pliers and fit a new one.
The 'closed' coils go next to head
No 'tricks' for cleaning out crank without stripping it.
It's in effect a secondary centrifugal filter so tends to catch anything 'heavy.
I was always impressed with the oil delivery, until Honda cheaped out and started using a pressed tin plate on later (1980?) small engines.
It was probably quite expensive to make though and did make crank heavier
Guess they increased the clearances on the CD185 as that didn't seem to have same issues as the smaller twins (125-150) which were designed to make big end replacement virtually impossible.
BTW, Gudgeon pin is piston pin or 'wrist pin' in USA, I stick to what I've learned so almost always say gudgeon pin.
That's a terrible Helicoil, should be at least 1/2 turn below surface. (one full turn=better)
You can unwind it with a pliers and fit a new one.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Thanks for the valve spring note, not surprised on this slacker motor job.
The flywheel drillings were plugged with rust so maybe this crank can be used even if kind of sloppy bearing wise.
This is the newest motor I've been into.
So never seen that plate before.I've heard about the early 125-150 cranks with one less bearing that weren't so hot.
I guess just 'crank pin ' for the big end rod part.
So a new helicoil is ok not necessary for a time sert (solid, not a coil)?
crazypj
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The tap for Helicoil or Timesert is the same in my experience.
I would just get the insert and replace it.
With a Timesert you need to counter bore the hole for the head flange, plus, getting the 'copper' ones is kinda difficult outside Europe (black for cast iron, copper for Aluminium)
I haven't used 14mm my Helicoil set in at least 20 years, the prices are cheap now for 'Recoil' and others compared to when I bought genuine Helicoil sets in mid 1980's (£170.00m for 14mm, I got 10mm, 12mm, 6mm in metric and a few others I haven't looked at in probably 10-15 years)
I would just get the insert and replace it.
With a Timesert you need to counter bore the hole for the head flange, plus, getting the 'copper' ones is kinda difficult outside Europe (black for cast iron, copper for Aluminium)
I haven't used 14mm my Helicoil set in at least 20 years, the prices are cheap now for 'Recoil' and others compared to when I bought genuine Helicoil sets in mid 1980's (£170.00m for 14mm, I got 10mm, 12mm, 6mm in metric and a few others I haven't looked at in probably 10-15 years)
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I was wondering if the coils would stand up for multiple plug changes, unlike most bolt situations, fewer remove and replace.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
I like Timeserts,but the prices for their kits..
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I'm not ready to spend much on this motor right now, as it was just a clean up and see what I've got. It looks like it could be a good rebuild for the future though. New pistons and that helicoil or timesert for sure. The rings are really stuck on one of the pistons and the other has had them recently replaced. The PO did a slacker job of freeing up a stuck piston (didn't even hone the cylinders) but the bores aren't pitted, only some surface rust. I removed a broken stud from the upper case next to the knock pins for the tranny bearing caps (and they were forced in too far). I found new needle roller bearings 20x26x16mm on amazon for cheap (Honda ones were super expensive) only $25 a pair and I'll reuse the caps. I'll pull the valves just to see what's up but I'm going to shelve this one for later and start into the real Mousetown motor for now and save this BlackHole motor for the Frame that Brody brought me (it still needs final heating and straightening, but that's a whole other project now. I just want to finish and get Mousetown's motor back into it's frame, then take a break and get the Red K0 sorted out and ride it.I like Timeserts,but the prices for their kits..
2wheel
Veteran Member
let me check my timesert kit i bought to fix an acura oil drain plug. I bought the kit to get the drill and insert tool and have 3 or 4 inserts left. If they are the same I'll donate an insert to the cause. and you can use the install tools
ballbearian
Veteran Member
That's very generous. Are the kits size specific?
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
The Timeserts kits are size specific and excellent quality and will hang in there indefinitely when installed properly.
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2wheel
Veteran Member
I’m not sure what size the spark plug thread is you need but here is a pic of the box. I tried a D8HS in one of the inserts and it’s too big for that plug. The B7ES from my 450 is the correct diameter but wrong pitch.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I'll have to go to NGK to see their specs. The thread pitch is 1.25 but the diameter on the B8ES seems smaller than a true 14mm (I measured 13.76) so not sure what kit or serts would work. I haven't pulled the old coil out yet to see what it's been enlarged to.
I had a bad drain plug in the Dream (maybe it was the spare, I can't remember) but I just tapped out the 12mm to M14x1.5 and bought another drain plug.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
This kit seemed reasonable with solid 14x1.25 inserts a 16x1.25 tap. As PJ said the opening should be let in for a flush opening. Should use green or red(?) locktite, I assume.
Also got a tap to clean up other 350 heads.
Also got a tap to clean up other 350 heads.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
I have no experience with those;I imagine red/green Loctite will keep them from backing-out once it cures.
The Time-sert kits(the Helicoil company also makes insert kits and I used one on a CB350 before)should come with a tool to properly 'seat'/lock the insert up top after installation so it doesn't unscrew when removing the plug.
The Helicoil company kit has a tapered tool which spreads the solid,one-piece insert(not the standard Helicoil SS 'springy' threads)into the head also while using Loctite.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
The Black Hole spare motor is boxed and on the way back burner now. I;ll put the failed helicoil job on that in another post.
The top end of Mousetown's motor came apart pretty easily. I pre-loosened all the screws with the Vessel Impacta prior to removing the stud nuts.
I think this is the first ime it's been opened and this must be the OEM head gasket with it's black seal rings stuck to the gasket. There were faint traces of something resembling rubber cement (like gaskacinch). It came off the head pretty clean. I don't deserve this kind of break, but I'll take it.
I'm going to let the one rough spot on the cam pass and the rockers look real good, no line even on the pads.
The cylinders look great too and given that it did have full compression at one point, it's hard to imagine the rings are stuck, maybe some sticky (another break!). The jugs are still sealed tight to the case and I'm pondering the feasibility of just cleaning the piston tops and just lightly lap the valves.
Even the bilge looked pretty good with hardly any sludge evident. The top and bottom cases show this silver version of factory Hondabond so don't think they've ever been apart.
Oh, and the cam tensioner rubber is still soft with minimal wear. No marks on the slider either.
Dare I hope on this project? All notes of caution on this will be appreciated.
The top end of Mousetown's motor came apart pretty easily. I pre-loosened all the screws with the Vessel Impacta prior to removing the stud nuts.
I think this is the first ime it's been opened and this must be the OEM head gasket with it's black seal rings stuck to the gasket. There were faint traces of something resembling rubber cement (like gaskacinch). It came off the head pretty clean. I don't deserve this kind of break, but I'll take it.
I'm going to let the one rough spot on the cam pass and the rockers look real good, no line even on the pads.
The cylinders look great too and given that it did have full compression at one point, it's hard to imagine the rings are stuck, maybe some sticky (another break!). The jugs are still sealed tight to the case and I'm pondering the feasibility of just cleaning the piston tops and just lightly lap the valves.
Even the bilge looked pretty good with hardly any sludge evident. The top and bottom cases show this silver version of factory Hondabond so don't think they've ever been apart.
Oh, and the cam tensioner rubber is still soft with minimal wear. No marks on the slider either.
Dare I hope on this project? All notes of caution on this will be appreciated.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Certainly looks a lot better than my engine.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
It had the white crusty stuff all over it but not the much of the darker aluminum discoloration that happens when it sits in the wet for even longer, like my Dream did.
I went all over it knocking off the white crusty powder with my steel 4" wire wheel in the drill which gets into the fins maybe a 1/4" or so. It looks a whole lot better and only took about an hour. I'm happy with it at this level. It could use a fresh repaint on the upper case but I'll just do the side covers, maybe the top valve cover, and stop.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Tom,that seems like a nice virgin CL350 engine.
I was able to get an OEM CB350 Honda brand gasket once;the coating in those key areas is part of the gasket;the factory head gasket has that coating applied to it to keep it from leaking.
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Maraakate
Veteran Member
Hey Tom,
Looks very clean in there even the studs. Regards to the coating on the gasket it may actually be gasgacinch. Mike was saying that's what they used a lot in the shop in the 70s on the head gaskets.
Hopefully it's just getting it free, nothing bad in the cylinders, new gaskets and drive on.
Looks very clean in there even the studs. Regards to the coating on the gasket it may actually be gasgacinch. Mike was saying that's what they used a lot in the shop in the 70s on the head gaskets.
Hopefully it's just getting it free, nothing bad in the cylinders, new gaskets and drive on.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Except this is probably the factory gasket. I'll just stick with copperseal since it's worked good for me so far.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I used some slightly used DeoxyC to immerse this tank in to get rid of the superficial rust from underneath. It did it and also took of the light factory overspray which I will cover with some white. It did a good job on the top paint of removing very thin rust spidering without hurting the original paint. I'm keeping the original paint and will just seal it with a couple coats of modern polish to keep the spidering from returning.
Maraakate
Veteran Member
Looks good. I'll have to get some one of these days and give it a try. Looks like it performs very well.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
DeoxC will remove both factory and rattle can paint if left in for 18+ hours.
Saves money on that expensive paint remover that has to be washed off with copious amounts of water too.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
More to wipe off flash rust though. It did get the rust but costs more than vinegar. Still tedious with a steel 'toothbrush' on that battery box. I'll post the top of the tank with the fine rust spiders removed, but only an hour or two in the DeoxC. A lot cheaper than Evaporust.
Interesting. Explains why they recommended NOT submerging my gas tank.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I checked it after about a half hour and there was still underside rust, so about an hour and then I pulled it and brushed the underside, that's when the overspray came off with just a nylon brittle brush, then a steel toothbrush on a couple stubborn areas. I didn't know they cautioned against it, I guess I got lucky for not overdoing it.
It was in an email from Pete Hamber where I'd told him I was planning on complete submersion.
crazypj
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Timeserts are made by WURTH in Germany, I like the copper plated ones but as you mentioned, they are expensive for complete kit and dealers who have them seem to think they are made of solid gold charging $60~$70 or more per hole.
In the 80's we charged £6.00 for helicoil and £8.00 for Timesert which eventually went to £10.00 for either.
Dollar conversion was around $3 : £1 at the time, now, it's not much above parity
crazypj
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The 13.76 mm is nominal diameter and correct for 14mm x1.25mm spark plug.
If you measure a few hundred plug threads you'll find variations of around 0.15mm
Just realised I haven't even looked at my Helicoil kits in probably 15~16 years (did one plug on sister-in-laws pick up and one on step-daughters Buick Century?)
You can get Recoil 're-fill' inserts at Autozone or even complete kits for 6~8cyl motor about $35~$40
I've seen people actually pull the coil out of heads, sometimes it works great, other times it pulls some original material so I always unscrew them
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Sad, but this head (spare) has lost enough material that this sert is just dropped in (not even screwed) , so unless someone makes oversized serts (like 17x 1.25 or maybe 18x1.25) then this head may be a goner.
Ugh.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Would it be possible to use a pair of inserts(an 18mm threaded O.D.),then step it down with the 14mm spark plug insert installed into the larger one??Sad, but this head (spare) has lost enough material that this sert is just dropped in (not even screwed) , so unless someone makes oversized serts (like 17x 1.25 or maybe 18x1.25) then this head may be a goner.
I would consider bringing this head to a good machinist for their advice.