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Mousetown, my own 73 CL350

Well, I didn't forget to put in the Orings even though they did look like the originals that I probably skipped replacing because they looked pretty good and I don't think I had new ones.
But,
I did put the cheapy gasket on backwards so the area I'm pointing at looked to be the leak. Honda uses the same gasket on both sides and there is a hole for oiling the tach drive that is not needed on the left side but it's there and if the gasket is a poor fit or, like me :oops: , puts it in backwards the sealing area is very thin there.
Since it's the weekend and my gasket cutting is quicker than waiting for shipping, I'll just cut my own from some quality sheet I have.

The Orings did finally arrive after a week from David Silver Snails but an ebayer near Philly, Von Licht Vintage Cycles, got some here in 2 days, von lichtity split.

I don't think I'll do the other side unless a problem develops but it was easier than I thought after loosening the eccentric rocker shafts the cam housing slipped right out.

IMG_1377.jpeg
Yes, that dark gasket on the right is the old OEM one that I saved for an occasion such as this; to use as evidence to convict me with. I'm guilty but repentant.
 
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Are you cutting out the circles using an x-acto knife or something along those lines? Looks pretty good.

I've cut a few gaskets in a pinch and with small circles I think I tried to rotate the material rather than the blade. What's your method?
 
The gasket looks good ballbearian !
I like using OEM gaskets when I can still get one that's pliable,as the stock Honda gasket has the correct clearance so I don't need to re-shim the camshaft end-play clearance.
 
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stl360+450 said:
Are you cutting out the circles using an x-acto knife or something along those lines? Looks pretty good.

I've cut a few gaskets in a pinch and with small circles I think I tried to rotate the material rather than the blade. What's your method?
Click to expand...
I should have posted a pic of my cut gasket. Those are the old OEM from the rebuild on the right and the cheapy (cheaper than usual NE) one that leaked.

A fresh sharpened tip on my utility knife and a couple passes around for the large middle hole. Scissors for the outside, a single hole paper punch works great for the 6mm screw holes (if they are an inch or less from the edge). I sharpened a piece of small electrical conduit that just fit the eccentric shaft holes and used a hammer like it was a die over a wood block.
 
bilbikek411 said:
The gasket looks good ballbearian !
I like using OEM gaskets when I can still get one that's pliable,as the stock Honda gasket has the correct clearance so I don't need to re-shim the camshaft clearance.
Click to expand...
It was hard to accurately measure the used OEM and Honda doesn't provide a spec but it was about .025". I had some good sheet that was .030 so I figured it would compress some and still be about right where I set the clearance with the torqued NE gasket originally.
 
ballbearian said:
It was hard to accurately measure the used OEM and Honda doesn't provide a spec but it was about .025". I had some good sheet that was .030 so I figured it would compress some and still be about right where I set the clearance with the torqued NE gasket originally.
Click to expand...
The OEM gaskets are a very tough material;I've removed,tightened-up and reinstalled the cam covers a few times using the same previously 'new' OEM gaskets.
I have had Such a horrible job scraping original,hardened by heat and age top-end gaskets off the CB350's cam cases.
 
bilbikek411 said:
The OEM gaskets are a very tough material;I've removed,tightened-up and reinstalled the cam covers a few times using the same previously 'new' OEM gaskets.
I have had Such a horrible job scraping original,hardened by heat and age top-end gaskets off the CB350's cam cases.
Click to expand...
Who knows, they were the only ones did come off cleanly but decided to use all new but I did keep them for reference.
 
For cutting gaskets I have a bunch of old-school nail scissors that I took when we cleaned out my grandmother's apartment. Heavy duty toe nail scissors work great. For making the holes take a look at a tool like the one here -

1717980603258.png

Multi-size leather punch
I have one of these that I found in a toolbox at my father's house.
 
wentwest said:
For cutting gaskets I have a bunch of old-school nail scissors that I took when we cleaned out my grandmother's apartment. Heavy duty toe nail scissors work great. For making the holes take a look at a tool like the one here -

View attachment 33705

Multi-size leather punch
I have one of these that I found in a toolbox at my father's house.
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That's cool, if it did the 8mm holes it would be perfect if near enough to the edges. Pre drilled wood blocks for holes further in could work I guess.
 
ballbearian said:
I need to wash the oil off, I think I may still have a leak but it was a nice 20 miler and a stop at an old cemetery where this monument to a former ballbearian, no doubt, stood.View attachment 33727
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Apparently a very important ballbearian no doubt. I wonder why?

By the way nice pic... amazing what a modern day Box Brownie can do.
 
stl360+450 said:
Indeed. He likely loaded lead balls into his rifle as a Civil War infantryman out of Pennsylvania (link).
Click to expand...
Amazing Brody, I'd never have thought to search that. It is pretty imposing, more like artillery ordinance, but hey, he lived pretty long and had plenty of dreams, no doubt.
I always do meet the nicest people on a Honda, even if they've done fired all their guns.
 
I replaced the Orings on the rocker shafts but that wasn't it. I pressured washed off the oil on a hot day and did a short test ride. It still leaked right at the head stud of the rocker box to top of head joint. I could see the leak like the spit bubbles that little babies make at the gasket line right there (center of pic).

7DGn6BT.jpg




I will try to re-torque the head nuts, lost cause? Who gets away with that? It's worth a try, right?



I must say that short test ride was just glorious. First ride since dodging death. As Oliver Twist said, "Please Sir, can I have some more?"

0we6ID5.jpg
 
It is strange to have dodged the Reaper, isn't it? I had a series of a-fib episodes about 3 years ago, which included a stroke that I only knew about months later when a doctor casually mentioned it. Thinking back I can point to a couple of experiences that now made sense, but at the time weren't a big deal. That "Wow, I could have died then" thought still comes to mind from time to time. Lends a bit of perspective to all the agitation in America today, and makes me grin for no particular reason while I'm rolling along on two wheels.

We can now return to your leaky head gasket.
 
I understand jensen's methodology on torquing the nuts after a few heat cycles.

First question .... what did you torque the nuts to originally?

What I would do.

In the tightening sequence in the manual remove nut #1 and put a drop of light oil on the threads and washer. Nut back on and torque to 16 ft/lbs. Repeat on the other nuts in order.

Bike is sure looking sweet, been riding my own after the ball bearing cam modification with a S___t A___Grin.
 
ballbearian said:
I replaced the Orings on the rocker shafts but that wasn't it. I pressured washed off the oil on a hot day and did a short test ride. It still leaked right at the head stud of the rocker box to top of head joint. I could see the leak like the spit bubbles that little babies make at the gasket line right there (center of pic).

7DGn6BT.jpg




I will try to re-torque the head nuts, lost cause? Who gets away with that? It's worth a try, right?
Click to expand...

Take the part off and seal the gasket both sides with the Permatex grey "Motoseal" in Canada by name.

Three pulls with a torque wrench at 1/3 max torque amd wait a few hrs 1/3rd more and wait a few hrs and the last 1/3 and call it good. I have never retorqued any motorcycle head after installation and never had a failure again. Yet I check flatness and normally deck most heads before replacing them again on the build.
ballbearian said:
I must say that short test ride was just glorious. First ride since dodging death. As Oliver Twist said, "Please Sir, can I have some more?"

0we6ID5.jpg
Click to expand...


That is a beautiful ride that is looking pretty special! It is just the right size for testing out the skill level and comfort with mid sized bikes again.


Enjoy the fruits of your work there my friend..... as you deserve to enjoy those as part of the restoration process too.

Cheers, David
 
First, thanks for all the kind words everyone.

I had not done a post heat cycle retorque. My trusty Craftsman 3/8" drive vintage beam type torque wrench and experience makes me think I stayed under 16 ft./lbs.
I will carefully feel if, through some anomally, the stud torque had loosened on this one. At least it is an outer stud and less likely to alter the actual head to cylinder seal at the combustion chamber. Just an outer edge of the rocker cam box.

I will fess up and admit that the cooper spray was probably not really a good idea and I may have used too much on that wimpy cam box gasket but if I can get this leak down from a serious drool to a mere sweat of oil, I'll be happy that it won't require engine removal.
 
ancientdad said:
Not here in this thread of course, but if you copy it to a new post in the Tips and Tricks section of Technical Stuff I'll pin it.
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Jensen must've edited out the link, or it somehow disappeared. I was going to review it before I attempt a retorque.
 
ballbearian said:
Jensen must've edited out the link, or it somehow disappeared. I was going to review it before I attempt a retorque.
Click to expand...
Actually, I don't think he did it, probably forgot. But it does look like he edited out the explanation in his post above.
 
Here is a better pic of the location of the small leak, marked with a red sharpie.
I lifted the tank to access all the head nuts and gave them all just a tiny nudge with a short end wrench. A double nudge on the stud right at the leak and it was slightly looser and easier to add torque to. I think I got a better feel with the small wrench than the long 3/8 drive torque wrench. It maybe north of 20ft/lbs. now but I'm not worried, it felt good.
Possibilities for the cause of the leak include, a bad gasket, a ding in the mating surfaces, or (a long shot) there is a knock pin that is too long or not seated all the way. I can't remember for sure but knock pins should only be on the intake side of the top of the head.

h8T3SHM.jpg




If I do have to pull the motor out, I'll hopefully find the culprit.

Then there is the throttle flat spot at 2-3K rpms. I may have used a 70 primary main instead of a 68 as LDR's specs said.

Washed and ready for another test ride. I've only logged 36 miles on it since resurrection.
 
ballbearian said:
Here is a better pic of the location of the small leak, marked with a red sharpie.
I lifted the tank to access all the head nuts and gave them all just a tiny nudge with a short end wrench. A double nudge on the stud right at the leak and it was slightly looser and easier to add torque to. I think I got a better feel with the small wrench than the long 3/8 drive torque wrench. It maybe north of 20ft/lbs. now but I'm not worried, it felt good.
Possibilities for the cause of the leak include, a bad gasket, a ding in the mating surfaces, or (a long shot) there is a knock pin that is too long or not seated all the way. I can't remember for sure but knock pins should only be on the intake side of the top of the head.
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You're right about the knock pins. Probably not it, but I just noticed (if the picture is accurate) that the cam cover gasket is different on the right front side compared to the left. Could the gasket be flipped? You know me, haven't touched a 350 in a long time.

honda-cb350k3-super-sport-1971-usa-cylinder-head-covercam-case_bighu0028e4001_e5d6.gif
 
ancientdad said:
You're right about the knock pins. Probably not it, but I just noticed (if the picture is accurate) that the cam cover gasket is different on the right front side compared to the left. Could the gasket be flipped? You know me, haven't touched a 350 in a long time.
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Given that I put the cam bearing gasket on backwards, I'd say that is a possibility. Double Homer!
 
A slower leak means the new cam box OEM gasket replacement will wait until I get more miles on this oil. The valve clearances didn't change (I checked) after the minor retorque.
It runs good and is pretty quick with it's 38 tooth rear sprocket. Stock CL, whereas the CB's have 36's. Natural environment for a small bike is windy Clopper Road.
bLxqmDx.jpg



This thing just eats rear turn signal bulbs. 4 so far in it's 55 mile grand total of post redemption milage. 350's are known for vibration but it shakes it's booty like a cheerleader on spring break.
Also, a defect in the nice looking Scrambler Cycle repop signal lamps. the bracket that holds the socket has no rubber damping and is too lightly spot welded. I've drilled and screwed the broken spot weld and one bracket broke and had to be replaced with a DIY metal siding scrap.
Next step is to wrap inner tube rubber around the sockets and use some Phillips heavy duty 1156 bulbs.
No problems from the same lamps used in front.
Great looks and price but the brackets need help.
UUkTixdl.jpg
3xaxmw1l.jpg
 
ballbearian said:
Also, a defect in the nice looking Scrambler Cycle repop signal lamps. the bracket that holds the socket has no rubber damping and is too lightly spot welded. I've drilled and screwed the broken spot weld and one bracket broke and had to be replaced with a DIY metal siding scrap.
Next step is to wrap inner tube rubber around the sockets and use some Phillips heavy duty 1156 bulbs.
No problems from the same lamps used in front.
Great looks and price but the brackets need help.
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He must be getting them from the same or similar source as the OEM-style taillight assembly for an SL100 I bought from an eBay seller, it fell apart in the first 200 miles or less. Spotwelds broke, tab for the threaded screw hole for the lens screw bent, came apart on the road. Ended up buying a good used OEM taillight and it's been on there since.
 
ballbearian said:
A slower leak means the new cam box OEM gasket replacement will wait until I get more miles on this oil. The valve clearances didn't change (I checked) after the minor retorque.
It runs good and is pretty quick with it's 38 tooth rear sprocket. Stock CL, whereas the CB's have 36's. Natural environment for a small bike is windy Clopper Road.
bLxqmDx.jpg



This thing just eats rear turn signal bulbs. 4 so far in it's 55 mile grand total of post redemption milage. 350's are known for vibration but it shakes it's booty like a cheerleader on spring break.
Also, a defect in the nice looking Scrambler Cycle repop signal lamps. the bracket that holds the socket has no rubber damping and is too lightly spot welded. I've drilled and screwed the broken spot weld and one bracket broke and had to be replaced with a DIY metal siding scrap.
Next step is to wrap inner tube rubber around the sockets and use some Phillips heavy duty 1156 bulbs.
No problems from the same lamps used in front.
Great looks and price but the brackets need help.
UUkTixdl.jpg
3xaxmw1l.jpg
Click to expand...
I've had similar issues on those CEV tail lamp assemblies for mopeds. You know exactly which ones I'm talking about! The repros look good but had the cheapest socket retainers for the bulbs. Constantly blew bulbs until I hacked up something enough to make it work. Then finally completely split apart from vibration about 3 years later.
 
Are the OEM turn signal lights hard to find? Maybe good used ones on eBay? I have run up almost 13,000 miles on my 1971 CL350K3 and I don't believe I have ever had to replace a turn signal bulb.
 
This bike came to me with no signal lamps at all, so all 4 were needed. The originals are the best inside, the way the sockets are rubber mounted, bulbs would last a very long time.
I bought these 4 for about $40 and with new lenses. This is not a show bike so NOS lamps were not even considered and even decent used ones would probably been fairly pricey.
I figured there may be some DIY improvements needed and I did by wrapping the sockets in some rubber strip recycled innertubes. The rear ones on these 350's seem to get the worst vibration. The fronts haven't been any trouble so far.
I hope I got this issue licked now but I've had to repent of my cheapskate tactics before, so we'll see.
 
I think I cured the rattly bulb eating sockets. 10 miles so far and twice the distance that took the lives of 3 bulbs.
As I said, it needed rubber washers on both sides of the signal brackets where bolted to the frame and rear fender.
The final fix was a sleeve of this 5mm thick foam rubber around the socket in it's housing pocket. I had bought this foam tubing to use over the very skinny stock grips on my C200, whose handlebars are only 3/4 inch in diameter at the ends. Absorbs vibration good but the smooth surface requires positive hand grip.


Still pondering how to tune out the flat spot/stumble between 2-4k rpm.
Still procrastinating pulling the motor to fix the cam box leak.

Lots of fun riding it though and many comments from those who remember these.
 
When you finally stop the stumbling and everything works, it's certainly fun (for a while) but if you're like me, it gets boring and I start looking for something else to "fix". I guess I'm nuts, but now that I'm 78 I just don't really give a damn.
 
kbongos said:
That'll teach those rattly bulb eating sockets. I probably should not use my blinkers, I am always forgetting to turn them off. Wasting all that blinker juice and confusing people driving behind me.
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Sorry for my late chime about blinkers. Believe it or not you can actually run LED bulbs in two of four turn signals without changing to an LED flasher! Yep! Been there done that.
Put LED's in vibrating turn signal housings if regular filament bulbs keep failing.
 
Spokes said:
Sorry for my late chime about blinkers. Believe it or not you can actually run LED bulbs in two of four turn signals without changing to an LED flasher! Yep! Been there done that.
Put LED's in vibrating turn signal housings if regular filament bulbs keep failing.
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I could, but if I can gloat over fixing the death rattle, that would be cool too.




I just checked my float level with the muzzleloader cleaning fitting (in 6 x .75mm thread). Worked like a charm and the level was just about 4mm below the rim edge. Perfect, now I can consider other carb issues.

www.ebay.com

MSM Muzzleloading Cleaning Tube with various threads FLUSHING NIPPLE | eBay

A Cleaning Tube or flushing nipple for the Side Hammer Percussion Muzzleloaders. Various Threads available. Comes with a 15"+ tube. Sizes Available: Part # 03123 1/4 x 28 Thread to fit T/C and standard rifles Part # 03125 6 x 1mm Thread to fit Traditions, CVA Part # 03209 6 x .75mm Thread to fit...
www.ebay.com
 
Twin Town said:
Remove VIN tag and slide a good frame under it.

Just because it has a title does not make it worth repair. that frame will never be safe structurally no matter how much effort you put into patching it up.
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ballbearian said:
I could, but if I can gloat over fixing the death rattle, that would be cool too.




I just checked my float level with the muzzleloader cleaning fitting (in 6 x .75mm thread). Worked like a charm and the level was just about 4mm below the rim edge. Perfect, now I can consider other carb issues.

www.ebay.com

MSM Muzzleloading Cleaning Tube with various threads FLUSHING NIPPLE | eBay

A Cleaning Tube or flushing nipple for the Side Hammer Percussion Muzzleloaders. Various Threads available. Comes with a 15"+ tube. Sizes Available: Part # 03123 1/4 x 28 Thread to fit T/C and standard rifles Part # 03125 6 x 1mm Thread to fit Traditions, CVA Part # 03209 6 x .75mm Thread to fit...
www.ebay.com
Click to expand...

ballbearian said:
Maybe later, that oil leak bugs me. I'll have to fix that.
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Wow - I just read through the whole discussion, what a journey! Any further updates since September? Thanks, Steve
 
ndnchf said:
Wow - I just read through the whole discussion, what a journey! Any further updates since September? Thanks, Steve
Click to expand...
Thank you for interest and reading. I got a lot of satisfaction from the whole process.
It is oft said here, at VHT, that these projects are never completely done. It is currently hibernating in my little shed waiting for me to get caught up on the other fleet jobs/projects around here. I'd rather tinker with the next improvements than try to sell anything.
Stay tuned or come on up and ride, become part of it's story.
 
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