1972 CB450 K5 Hot Mess

Got no mirrors so I can't schedule an inspection so I can't get an operable title so can't get a tag and I can't sleep! Mirrors appear to be lost in the shipping upside down so I ordered some 8mm to 10mm adapters from Amazon so I can put the mirrors from the S90 on the 450 and get the inspection done hopefully next week. Suppose to be 70 F on Saturday so I guess I will exercise the S90 a bit. :)
Jeez.... it's the little things. At least you have a viable workaround, though you still have to wait.
 
Not sure if it was the email I sent to the shipping company asking for updated status or just the low pitched whining I have been doing the last few days but got an email saying the mirrors will be delivered tomorrow! Now if they are just in one piece!

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Got the mirrors in today and installed on the bike. Have to wait until next Tuesday to call Theft and Licence office to make an appointment to have the bike inspected to confirm it being road worthy so hoping can get title next week. Another nice day so I have been going over nuts and bolt to make sure everything is torqued properly. It seems a little cold blooded on initial start up but after warming a few minutes seems to be running well. Fixed the rear passenger pegs that were loose in the up position by cutting a couple rubber spacers from an old inner tube.

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Getting close. :p Yes two tone primer.
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Putting the tank and the side cover emblems on are were totally for my benefit and the photograph. I am hoping for a run of warm days in February or early March where I can paint the covers and the tank but that depends on old man winter.
 
Got the mirrors in today and installed on the bike. Have to wait until next Tuesday to call Theft and Licence office to make an appointment to have the bike inspected to confirm it being road worthy so hoping can get title next week. Another nice day so I have been going over nuts and bolt to make sure everything is torqued properly. It seems a little cold blooded on initial start up but after warming a few minutes seems to be running well. Fixed the rear passenger pegs that were loose in the up position by cutting a couple rubber spacers from an old inner tube.

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Getting close. :p Yes two tone primer.
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She's looking real Purdy Rob!
 
Who remembers the book/movie "Catch 22"? I am feeling like Yossarian this morning, In order to get an inspection you need to call during limited office hours, voice message says to submit online form, fill out online form and hit submit and get a network error that sends you back to step one. Fill out form, submit, network error rinse and repeat. I will drive to their office tomorrow and see if I can make an appointment in person. Sigh.....
 
Who remembers the book/movie "Catch 22"? I am feeling like Yossarian this morning, In order to get an inspection you need to call during limited office hours, voice message says to submit online form, fill out online form and hit submit and get a network error that sends you back to step one. Fill out form, submit, network error rinse and repeat. I will drive to their office tomorrow and see if I can make an appointment in person. Sigh.....
Jeez, let's not make it simple or anything.... :rolleyes:
 
For me it is just an annoyance but I am sure there are businesses that have to work with this office on a daily basis so this must be a real problem for. I could take the bike to their office during business hours and get the inspection done but I would need to rent a trailer, load the bike, haul it across town and then back home, unload and take trailer back to rental office. Too much trouble and chances to drop the bike or have an accident. It has got cold again so my patience meter has reset somewhat. :rolleyes:
 
You're right about the trailer. I was allowed to take the bike to the DMV anytime for the VIN inspection, but I also had to take the bike off the truck, and then wrangle it back on. That meant I had to bring a helper along. A U-Haul motorcycle trailer is the best you can find, because it's low to the ground and has a flop down tailgate that works well as a ramp.
 
You're right about the trailer. I was allowed to take the bike to the DMV anytime for the VIN inspection, but I also had to take the bike off the truck, and then wrangle it back on. That meant I had to bring a helper along. A U-Haul motorcycle trailer is the best you can find, because it's low to the ground and has a flop down tailgate that works well as a ramp.
Thanks for the info on the trailer, I was wondering how high they were. I would definitely need a helper just to feel safe and other than one of my neighbors sons who would be in school I have no one close at hand to ask. A few years ago I would have not thought about loading it myself but that was then and this is now. :sneaky:
 
Thanks for the info on the trailer, I was wondering how high they were. I would definitely need a helper just to feel safe and other than one of my neighbors sons who would be in school I have no one close at hand to ask. A few years ago I would have not thought about loading it myself but that was then and this is now. :sneaky:
I have loaded a bike by myself, into a U-Haul trailer. It's ideal if you can find a place where you can back the trailer so the wheels are in a gutter, so then the back end is even lower, but finding the right place to do it can be tough.
 
The U-Haul motorcycle trailer I used included a gate ramp at the back, so loading and unloading just involved rolling the bike. I used the side stand while getting the front straps in place and then raised it after tightening. Added rear straps for extra security. I did not have help and had to unload/load for my inspection.

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The U-Haul motorcycle trailer I used included a gate ramp at the back, so loading and unloading just involved rolling the bike. I used the side stand while getting the front straps in place and then raised it after tightening. Added rear straps for extra security. I did not have help and had to unload/load for my inspection.
Yep, I'll vouch for how easy they are to use as well, had no trouble loading the non-running Harley I bought from a former client of mine a few years ago. Nice deep chock for the front wheel, wide ramp that is easy to get the bike into the trailer with, plenty of tie down points.

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I have never used the u-haul motorcycle trailer before but I can see they are really low. I am just being gun shy after pulling the muscle in my arm the other day and the idea of it getting away from me and falling at this point is not something I want to contemplate. Office hours are 8 to 10 T,W, and Th so will drive over tomorrow and make the appointment for them to come by my house in person tomorrow. If that doesn't work out I can confirm someone will be at the office on Thursday morning and I will rent a trailer and take it over. Would really suck to get there and the office is closed for some reason. The old Hee Haw "if it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all" song comes to mind.
 
I feel your pain Rob. Although I was able to fill out the application on line, it took them 2hrs after my scheduled appointment to get to me.

I don't suppose you have any neighbors that have one of these lawn equipment trailers you can borrow? It was pretty easy to load with my wife helping me to push it up on the trailer. Similar to the U-haul trailer AD's post.

I'm busy this week and next week. I could make it up after that on a Thursday if you still needed help.

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Thanks Mike for the offer to come by and assist, it is really appreciated! If for some reason I need the help I will reach out but I am hopeful that I will be able to meet someone at the office tomorrow and make an appointment for them to come by the house reasonably soon. With the weather in the 70's a few days ago I was anxious but now that it colder I am not feeling as urgent but the roadblocks are annoying just the same. If I do need a trailer a u-haul office close by shows they have a bike trailer so I will just rent it if needed.

With that said, darn your bike looks good! Gives me a bench mark to shoot for as I don't want mine to be too shabby. :D
 
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Got the inspection done today with time to stop by the tag office and she's legal now! Was raining earlier but stopped and the sun peaked out so couldn't resist and decided to make a loop around the golf course which is about a mile. Started her up and she came out the gate strong up to about 6K in 2nd but didn't last. About a quarter mile down the road I could tell I was losing a cylinder. At a half mile running on one cylinder and I ended up pushing her about the last 50 feet to my drive. Pulled the plugs and the are black and gas fouled. Sprayed them with contact cleaner and put back in and engine started right back up. Not a surprise as I had to clean the right plug once the other day just trying to get it started. I will check the points before I start messing with the carbs just to make sure they didn't close up. Shifted good 1st-4th but never got to 5th.

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Now (so long as the weather cooperates) you've got new energy to get all these tuning issues ironed out! It is a relief when you finally get legal - one big hesitation cleared up. It took a few rides when I felt I had to bring several locks and cables so I could secure the bike to something if it stopped running during a test ride, but knowing that you are the legal owner and that you have a right to be on the streets is moving in the right direction.
 
Got the inspection done today with time to stop by the tag office and she's legal now! Was raining earlier but stopped and the sun peaked out so couldn't resist and decided to make a loop around the golf course which is about a mile. Started her up and she came out the gate strong up to about 6K in 2nd but didn't last. About a quarter mile down the road I could tell I was losing a cylinder. At a half mile running on one cylinder and I ended up pushing her about the last 50 feet to my drive. Pulled the plugs and the are black and gas fouled. Sprayed them with contact cleaner and put back in and engine started right back up. Not a surprise as I had to clean the right plug once the other day just trying to get it started. I will check the points before I start messing with the carbs just to make sure they didn't close up. Shifted good 1st-4th but never got to 5th.

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The tuning process can be such a pain.. But we are here to get you through it. How many turns do you have your fuel mixture screws coming out at? These are 723A carbs correct?
 
Now (so long as the weather cooperates) you've got new energy to get all these tuning issues ironed out! It is a relief when you finally get legal - one big hesitation cleared up. It took a few rides when I felt I had to bring several locks and cables so I could secure the bike to something if it stopped running during a test ride, but knowing that you are the legal owner and that you have a right to be on the streets is moving in the right direction.
Got a blast of cold that will lingering awhile but that is OK, at least I got a test ride and it feels like the bike is solid other than tuning. My next steps are to confirm I am getting good spark, double checking point gap and such. before touching the carbs I may get a set of hotter plugs, B7ES or equivalent with the colder temps just for initial tuning. Anyway I am glad I live where I can test ride in my neighborhood without having to use multiple cable locks although one might be a good idea. Yes that initial kick when I first started and it was hitting good felt great!
 
The tuning process can be such a pain.. But we are here to get you through it. How many turns do you have your fuel mixture screws coming out at? These are 723A carbs correct?
Thanks and I appreciate you and everybody here that is willing to brainstorm and find solutions. Yes the are 723a carbs and if I remember I have them set 1 1/4 out.
 
Settled back and enjoying a cup of English breakfast tea and honey, not a cold just can't have a 2nd cup of coffee anymore due to heartburn. Anyway just got started troubleshooting and quickly found an issue with the plug caps. Quick check of the spark by holding the plug next to engine, cranking and very orange spark on both plugs but seems like they were blue when I first checked after getting everything together. Decided to check the caps and I can only get a reading if press the meter probe very hard into end where the plug tip goes, One cap reads 5.16 K and the other will give an intermittent reading of about 10 K if I push really hard into the cap. These are caps I got from 4 into 1 for what it's worth. Does anyone know of a good source for these caps?
 
Settled back and enjoying a cup of English breakfast tea and honey, not a cold just can't have a 2nd cup of coffee anymore due to heartburn. Anyway just got started troubleshooting and quickly found an issue with the plug caps. Quick check of the spark by holding the plug next to engine, cranking and very orange spark on both plugs but seems like they were blue when I first checked after getting everything together. Decided to check the caps and I can only get a reading if press the meter probe very hard into end where the plug tip goes, One cap reads 5.16 K and the other will give an intermittent reading of about 10 K if I push really hard into the cap. These are caps I got from 4 into 1 for what it's worth. Does anyone know of a good source for these caps?
I found some on EBay. They may be counterfeit but they both spec’d out ok.

I suspect it might be just as cost effective to throw money at 4 of those Firepower ones hoping that 2 work. I think I dropped $22 on them but I refuse to acknowledge the problem in my EBay purchase history.
 
I used your guide to take apart 3 old caps I have and checked the ceramic resistors and after cleaning the tips they show 9-10 K resistance. I then took a look at the 4into1 caps and they are made different with the brass part that the plug pushes into unscrewing with a spring and small resistor under that. The brass part was loose but even when screed in tight it does not touch the spring. I think the spring has collapsed. The individual pieces all check OK with the meter and resistors read just under 5 K. I am going to try to repair.

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I used your guide to take apart 3 old caps I have and checked the ceramic resistors and after cleaning the tips they show 9-10 K resistance. I then took a look at the 4into1 caps and they are made different with the brass part that the plug pushes into unscrewing with a spring and small resistor under that. The brass part was loose but even when screed in tight it does not touch the spring. I think the spring has collapsed. The individual pieces all check OK with the meter and resistors read just under 5 K. I am going to try to repair.

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Too bad you bought the non-resistor plugs, now would be a good time to replace the resistor in the cap with a chunk of copper wire and switch to BR8ES plugs.
 
Too bad you bought the non-resistor plugs, now would be a good time to replace the resistor in the cap with a chunk of copper wire and switch to BR8ES plugs.
Might actually be a more reliable way to go. Plus, those plug are cheaper and way more widely available.
 
Too bad you bought the non-resistor plugs, now would be a good time to replace the resistor in the cap with a chunk of copper wire and switch to BR8ES plugs.
Easy enough to do later when I do buy new plugs. At least the 4into1 caps unscrew so easy to disassemble but don't the BR8ES plugs have non removable tips?
 
Easy enough to do later when I do buy new plugs. At least the 4into1 caps unscrew so easy to disassemble but don't the BR8ES plugs have non removable tips?
You can get them with a screw off tip as well.
 
Got it, looks like the NGK 5422 BR8ES has the removable tip vs the NGK 7986 BR8ES-11 which has the solid tip.

Did another short run after fixing the plug caps and still has similar results. Runs great out the gate, let off and starts bogging and missing, pulled over and it would start running correctly but as soon as I give it gas starts bogging again. I had issues with the pistons in the carbs sticking in the up position previously and thought I had it corrected but I am wondering if that one or both are sticking and might account for this issue.
 
If you checked the plugs, were they fouled again? Stuck slide pistons would definitely have a detrimental effect, so I agree that's a good thing to look into and sort out.
No signs of the bowls overfilling? The behavior and fouling kind of jive with that sort of over-rich condition. What air filters are you using? The ignition coils are new replacements?

Congratulations on the successful inspection and paperwork!
 
If you checked the plugs, were they fouled again? Stuck slide pistons would definitely have a detrimental effect, so I agree that's a good thing to look into and sort out.
No signs of the bowls overfilling? The behavior and fouling kind of jive with that sort of over-rich condition. What air filters are you using? The ignition coils are new replacements?

Congratulations on the successful inspection and paperwork!
Getting cold and late when I put the bike up so didn't check the plugs but I expect they are fouled from the way it was running. No evidence of fuel leaking from the overflow and using new stock air filters from Scrambler Cycles and the coils and condensers are new replacements. I am thinking one or both of the pistons is sticking which would allow too much fuel to come through the main jet if I understand how these carbs work. I will need to pull the air filters and see if the pistons are hanging up or not.

I am really happy about getting the bike street legal so I can actually see how it runs and troubleshoot it. Wish we could get dependably good spare parts though, I am only about 70% confident that a new spare is is not bad out of the box, take the plug caps for example. Oh well as they say if it was easy anyone could play. :sneaky:
 
I am thinking one or both of the pistons is sticking which would allow too much fuel to come through the main jet if I understand how these carbs work.
The jet needle would be up, exposing more of the main jet, but the restriction of air through the venturi would also be reduced, so it's hard to speculate.

I wonder if closing the choke momentarily when it starts to cough and sputter would have any effect — it might bring the slides down.

You might experiment without the air cleaners for your next test ride. Makes it easier to keep an eye on the slide pistons and your plugs were fouled before so it should not do any harm in the opposite direction while you sort things out.

Addendum: The choke is not closed currently, right? That would explain what you're seeing also.

Wish we could get dependably good spare parts though, I am only about 70% confident that a new spare is is not bad out of the box, take the plug caps for example.
I recently got a new set of caps for my 450 from 4-into-1 to convert for the resistor plugs. They both checked out very close to 5kΩ prior to modification.
 
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The jet needle would be up, exposing more of the main jet, but the restriction of air through the venturi would also be reduced, so it's hard to speculate.

I wonder if closing the choke momentarily when it starts to cough and sputter would have any effect — it might bring the slides down.

You might experiment without the air cleaners for your next test ride. Makes it easier to keep an eye on the slide pistons and your plugs were fouled before so it should not do any harm in the opposite direction while you sort things out.

Addendum: The choke is not closed currently, right? That would explain what you're seeing also.


I recently got a new set of caps for my 450 from 4-into-1 to convert for the resistor plugs. They both checked out very close to 5kΩ prior to modification.
Just as you say I am not sure what exactly happens if the piston sticks, but I am thinking a rich condition overall.

I did play with the choke a bit and it seemed like it made a difference a couple of times but not sure and yes other than starting choke was open.

I am planning on pulling the filters next so will try running with them off and see if I can catch the piston stuck open

My caps from 4into1 checked good when I first got them as well but when I checked them today the part the spark plug tip plugs into was loose and even after I tightened it it did not make contact with the spring and resistor so I had to put a copper spacer in between the spring and the plug and they both check good now. I think the spring collapsed or they are really sensitive to the cold weather.

Getting down to 19 to tonight with a high of 42 tomorrow so may not get much done but desire to work on it may outweigh good sense.
 
In the 40's today so did a little troubleshooting this afternoon. Decided to check point gap and static timing to start. Had the bike on the side stand on a piece of 2X4 where is just off level. Put a drip pan under the engine and removed the points and rotor covers and lost about 3/4 of a quart of oil. Checked the points and left was at about 15 so tweaked to 14 and right was about 15 so just left it as I figured I would need to adjust when I checked the timing which I did next. Used an ohm meter and found the left side was breaking right at the LT mark so adjusted to LF and then checked the right side. Barely had to re-gap the points just a hair and got it set. Really don't think points or timing was causing the issue but wanted to check. Also looked at the points wiring and they are positioned correctly. Put the covers back on and added some oil and started it. Cold natured but started and seemed to not be hitting as well on on the right side taking longer to warm the header. Also hearing some noise in the right muffler and the exhaust is not as strong as the left. There were large chunks/flakes of rusty stuff that came out before I installed them so wondering if a big piece of rust has come loose and is blocking the muffler. Next steps are to pull mufflers and see how it runs with just the headers and the pull the air filters and check the pistons in the carbs for sticking. Going to be very cold again tomorrow and Monday so will probably be on hold. :coffee:
 
I assume you are rationing your non-resistor plugs carefully, like me. How clean are they getting with the contact cleaner? This is the first set of plugs, right?
 
I assume you are rationing your non-resistor plugs carefully, like me. How clean are they getting with the contact cleaner? This is the first set of plugs, right?
Yes I am using the first set, I cleaned them today spraying some carb cleaner in a small jelly jar put the plugs in and put the cap on the jar and let them soak. They cleaned up good and that is what i used to test start today. Only ran a few minutes but still may need to clean again. I may pull the tank back off and bench test the coils and condensers as well just to eliminate them as a problem even though they are new.

Can anyone point to vendor with reliably good aftermarket points? I am using a set of old ones that I dressed the contacts on as I have heard the aftermarket ones are not very good.
 
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Points last a good while, so maybe you can keep an eye out for an NOS set and avoid the aftermarket points altogether.

Addendum: I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but if you do look for NOS points one brand to look for would be Kokusan. I have a set of used Kokusan points for the 450 and they bear the mark 王 within a circle, often in a place where it's almost hard to see. My brother tells me this Japanese character represents King.

Old Daiichi points are supposed to be okay — they use the three rotor blade symbol. Some people complain about modern Daiichi points.

I think there are some Tec points for the 450 out there also, maybe including this full assembly on eBay — see picture 6 and zoom in. ($139 plus shipping but they take offers!)

I have also seen new points for the 450 marked with F E W inside a diamond. These are apparently from the Fujimoto Electric Works, but I don't know much else about them.
 
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Got a little work done on the bike today after warming the garage up a little. Pulled the right muffler to check if was was obstructed by a chunk of rust or anything but seemed to be clear but I was able to shake out some smaller pieces. I will be on the hunt for new mufflers later on. Next step was to check the carbs to see if one or both pistons were sticking so pulled the air filters and checked pushing up with a finger tip. The right carb piston worked with no issues but found the left carb, which I had trouble with before was still sticking occasionally. Pulled the cap and saw there was still a tiny bit of corrosion in the upper corner of the cup so buffed with some 0000 steel wool and a drop or two of WD40. I also lightly buffed the sealing area of the piston and inside the brass bushing in the center where the stainless center rod fits. Cleaned with some brake cleaner and repeated once more. Reassembled and put the fuel tank back on, (really glad I I capped off the crossover nipples for the time being) and started up. Still a little cold natured but seemed to start easier. Tweaked the idle speed to get the muffler pressure synced a bit better and decided to do a test ride.

Appears to be heading in the right direction with overall a better run. I was able to run it down the road about a mile and back a couple of laps and got into 5th and back down to first and really happy with shifting up and down. Clutch is engaging really well with no slippage and neutral easy to find. Ran a lot better but still acting like it is running out of gas or choking usually notice when I am slowing down to make a turn and took a few seconds to get it to start idling and taking throttle again. I did stop a couple of times to see if one of the pistons were stuck up but really couldn't catch it if it was. I also wonder if the gas cap is venting properly, it is new one that i bought off Amazon and looks nice but may not be venting properly so I will do the next run with the cap loose. On a positive note for the most part it ran really nice and pulled hard when accelerated but you can only test so hard in a 40 MPH zone. Pleased with the progress so far!
 
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