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1972 CB450 K5 Hot Mess
- Thread starter RobMan
- Start date
RobMan
Veteran Member
Thanks, I will see if I can find the thread. I have seen where many others have cut down just one spring to try to bring the advance unit close to the original tension but seems to me it would be out of balance a bit someway or another. I do have another advance unit (if I can find it) and can compare the springs.
I believe this is the thread you are referring too. Thanks to you and @Jays100.
www.vintagehondatwins.com
I believe this is the thread you are referring too. Thanks to you and @Jays100.
Ignition Advancer Rebuild Information, all 450/500T Models
I wrote this and posted it on another site. They're being annoying just now so am bringing that post over here. I believe everyone can benefit from this information. I learned it the hard way. Please feel free to post your experience(s) too. Part 1 (of 2) There are three ignition advancers...
www.vintagehondatwins.com
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Yes, that's the one, post #22. Sorry I didn't have time to look it up for you.
RobMan
Veteran Member
C'mon man I thought this was a full service forum! Joking, I really appreciate your reminding me about the post and Google made short work of it. In case any one is curious the MacMaster-Carr part number is 9433k528 - extension springs, corrosion-resistant.
it doesn’t necessarily have to be hvac tape. Anything that seals well will do it. HVAC tape just leaves a lot less residue and seals best.
Since you have the caps off, you could just flip It over and throw some acetone in there to see if there’s any leakage. It would be around the perimeter of the plastic window.
Since you have the caps off, you could just flip It over and throw some acetone in there to see if there’s any leakage. It would be around the perimeter of the plastic window.
RobMan
Veteran Member
And I do have acetone!
RobMan
Veteran Member
Found the advance unit off the donor engine that I had such trouble getting off the exhaust cam and cleaned up a bit. I wanted to use it a comparison for the advance unit I am using on my engine.
On the donor advance unit on the right in the photos, the shaft the cam goes on is clearly marked and lines up with the notch that the pin on the cam slips in. On the advance I am using on the engine there is no discernible mark on the shaft itself but I had lined the cam up with the notch for the cam pin when I had put it together and installed. I marked the notch with a sharpie on the front of both the plates. Just to confirm you can use the cam pin notch as a guide to reassemble the advance unit if the alignment marks are not easily visable.
On the donor advance unit on the right in the photos, the shaft the cam goes on is clearly marked and lines up with the notch that the pin on the cam slips in. On the advance I am using on the engine there is no discernible mark on the shaft itself but I had lined the cam up with the notch for the cam pin when I had put it together and installed. I marked the notch with a sharpie on the front of both the plates. Just to confirm you can use the cam pin notch as a guide to reassemble the advance unit if the alignment marks are not easily visable.
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stl360+450
Veteran Member
No springs with the donor mechanism?
RobMan
Veteran Member
Just not installed, I have everything to reassemble if needed. I am going to give the advance unit I have been using one more try and then I may try to swap the springs and such. Just finished setting the points and still need to set the static timing. Putting stuff up for the day to take care of some other chores.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Have not had a chance to work on the bike itself since the other day but did mess with the tank cleaning odyssey. Getting a little closer to bare metal in the bottom of the valleys in the tank. The bookies in Vegas are taking bets on whether or not the bottom of the tank falls off when the last of the rust is gone. Need to drop a box of smaller nuts and screws in the tank after the next drain to work those seams. Had a mixed handful of junk out of my ammo can of mixed nuts, bolts, washers, fittings and such and want to share a pro tip, be sure you only put in stuff you can fish out with a magnet, yep ask me how I know. 
Fishing with the flexible mechanical fingers can be tedious.
Hopefully get some time to get stuff together for another engine start in the next day or so.
Fishing with the flexible mechanical fingers can be tedious. Hopefully get some time to get stuff together for another engine start in the next day or so.
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stl360+450
Veteran Member
When I got my CB360 back in 2014, I was trying to salvage everything I could. The paint on the tank was dull, but not too bad and I tried cleaning it with gasoline and a bunch of BBs. It didn't take long for the BBs to start finding new ways out of the tank, which helped me realize that it was a lost cause. Hopefully yours holds up.
My biggest problem with cleaning tanks has been flash rust as well as new rust after cleaning. This led me to line my tanks and I've used both Red Kote and POR-15. What's your plan after the cleaning is done?
My biggest problem with cleaning tanks has been flash rust as well as new rust after cleaning. This led me to line my tanks and I've used both Red Kote and POR-15. What's your plan after the cleaning is done?
Keep an eye on the Metal Rescue to make sure you stop the rust eating process before it goes too far. I left mine too long without checking and it had eaten through the side of the tank. Mine was very rusty, so there was likely not much solid steel left.
RobMan
Veteran Member
This is my first real tank cleaning and honestly after reading so many trials and tribulations with flash rust I was going to try coating with a mix of a quart of gas and 2 cycle oil and see how it looks but but not very confident. Back around 2000 I tried a clean and coat kit for a 1972 BSA 650 gas tank and seemed to come out OK but ended up selling the project to a guy who wanted it to rebuild with his grandson so who knows if it held up. Kinda wish I had kept the bike but working 2 jobs and no time then. There is a vintage bike shop here in Burlington and I was going to ask the owner about someone to work on the dent removal and and body work so may ask about lining the tank.
RobMan
Veteran Member
It had been soaking for several weeks with the Blaster Metal rescue and has Rust 911 in it now and no evidence of leaks but the real test will be gasoline.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Update on the carbs, per @EzPete's suggestion I checked the plastic plugs in the caps for leakage. I used denatured alcohol and poured a couple of ounces in each cap and the right carb cap leaked immediately which kinda surprised me because it was the side running best. The left cap showed no sign of leakage so I checked the spare 14H cap and it did not leak. I considered running a bead of clear JB Weld around the edge of the plastic plug but decided to clean the cap off the 14 Hand use it. Cleaned up well and the piston works smoothly after using a little 0000 steel wool. Kudos to @EzPete for suggesting I check this because it would have been a significant vacuum leak.
I had already poured out the alcohol out of the cap before taking the picture as it was starting to make a mess. The other caps held fluid for about 15 minutes before I called them good.
I had already poured out the alcohol out of the cap before taking the picture as it was starting to make a mess. The other caps held fluid for about 15 minutes before I called them good.
I find myself thinking "I've never seen that before" sometimes, but then I have to remember that these things are decades older than they were when I would have said it previously. Good suggestion and good catch.
RobMan
Veteran Member
No chores this morning so decided to finish timing the engine and get the carbs on. Had set the points gaps the other day and got the timing set today no problem but as a suggestion for anyone trying to get the timing marks lined and the rotor jumps I use a piece of heater hose wedged in under the rotor to lock it, still able to turn the rotor but enough friction to hold in place. The bike is slightly raised on the left side to prevent oil from running out and I do prefer using an ohm meter to set the timing over a test light so I don't have to worry about overheating the coils and running the battery down.
After setting the timing and buttoning up the covers I decided to do another compression test and spin the engine over a bit to get the oil up to the top end. Compression tested the same at 160 PSI both cylinders. I went for another engine start and here are the results. Let me know if anyone cannot see the videos. There is a fan in front of the engine but hard to see.
First start, glad I spun the engine up a bit to oil the cams and such.
drive.google.com
Adjusted the idle speed down a bit and tried again. After it started played with the air mixture screws some as well. You may hear some pops from the exhaust and muffles leaks.
drive.google.com
Feeling pretty darn good about it so far but need to get the filters on and see if I can fine tune it a bit more. A little closer to the wind!
After setting the timing and buttoning up the covers I decided to do another compression test and spin the engine over a bit to get the oil up to the top end. Compression tested the same at 160 PSI both cylinders. I went for another engine start and here are the results. Let me know if anyone cannot see the videos. There is a fan in front of the engine but hard to see.
First start, glad I spun the engine up a bit to oil the cams and such.
Eng start1 9-12-25.MOV
drive.google.com
Adjusted the idle speed down a bit and tried again. After it started played with the air mixture screws some as well. You may hear some pops from the exhaust and muffles leaks.
Eng start2 9-12-25.MOV
drive.google.com
Feeling pretty darn good about it so far but need to get the filters on and see if I can fine tune it a bit more. A little closer to the wind!
It's very satisfying to hear it come back to life. Sounds great.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Vroom vroom! I like it!
wentwest
Veteran Member
To hold the rotor in place in a way that makes it easy to adjust I use a screw jack from a car. Put a socket on the center hex on the rotor, and a breaker bar that's at least a foot long, maybe more. Rotate the engine slowly with the breaker bar until you're almost to the place where the rotor is getting ready to jump forward, then put the jack on the floor in front of the engine and then screw it higher until it's just stopping the breaker bar from turning the engine more, press the bar against the top part of the jack and hold it there while you start to screw the jack lower. Keep hanging on to the breaker against the jack and lowering until you get to the mark. At that point the breaker will start pushing by itself and the rotor may move a bit past the mark because of free play in the breaker and socket, and if it does just raise the jack a smidge.
RobMan
Veteran Member
That works even better because you would have complete control of the rotation of the rotor. With the heater hose method it does slip occasionally especially if it has picked up some oil which results in some mumbled dag nab its but but a lot better than trying to balance it. If I remember a guy suggested and got me a piece of heater hose from his car when I was trying to time my first CB450 in the parking lot of the barracks at George AFB in the Mojave desert circa 1977 or so. Had a Haynes manual and a test light and profanity if I remember correctly. Thanks for a better suggestion.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
For those of us keeping track at home, is it possible to give a rough estimate of when this vroom vroom machine will move under its own power? Or at least a to-do list?
I gather that the tank and front wheel still need attention. What else?
I gather that the tank and front wheel still need attention. What else?
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Perfection takes time, I get it, but I just want to have the checklist so I'll know how close we're getting as things continue to be checked off.Stop badgering the man, my drag bike project is going on 6 years now!
RobMan
Veteran Member
OK you have just given the bike it's name! Custom paint with Vroom Vroom on the sides of the tank comes to mind. Not going for perfection but major things left to do are front and rear wheels and tires, clean the hubs new bearing, new spokes on the rear, replacement front rim bearings and spokes for the front and replacement front fender both due to extreme rust. The fuel tank still needs final dents removed and paint as well as the side covers. My goal is to have it road ready and titled for a late spring or early summer trip back to the mountains with my daughter and son in law and ride the Tail of the Dragon. Of course would need to get it on the road before that to get break in time for both of us to avoid disaster.
BTW would anyone know if a 500T front fender would work on my front forks? I saw a pretty nice 500T fender on ebay and kinda like the look of it. Not sure how I go just thinking.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That's not a bad to-do list.
I looked at the CMSNL listings for the forks and front fender of the 1975 CB500T and they are listed as fitting to CB500 models only. That doesn't mean the fender won't fit, only that you'd have to verify through trial-and-error, via measurements, or from someone else's experience.
I think you saw the thread where Chris pointed out that my bike has some front end elements from a 500T, e.g., gauges and fork ears, but I'm not actually sure about the forks or fender. I think they're 450 parts.
I looked at the CMSNL listings for the forks and front fender of the 1975 CB500T and they are listed as fitting to CB500 models only. That doesn't mean the fender won't fit, only that you'd have to verify through trial-and-error, via measurements, or from someone else's experience.
I think you saw the thread where Chris pointed out that my bike has some front end elements from a 500T, e.g., gauges and fork ears, but I'm not actually sure about the forks or fender. I think they're 450 parts.
Yeah, when I looked it up and saw the 375 middle number I suspected there was enough difference that it was a unique part, but as you said it doesn't mean someone couldn't make one fit depending on what the differences are. It only has the lower brace as well so IMO it looks sleeker that the stock CB450 fender.
RobMan
Veteran Member
I think I would like the look as well, a bit sportier. There are several on ebay and one really nice if it hasn't sold. I will have to look up the forks on the 500 and see if they are same as the 450.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I am late to the party!No chores this morning so decided to finish timing the engine and get the carbs on. Had set the points gaps the other day and got the timing set today no problem but as a suggestion for anyone trying to get the timing marks lined and the rotor jumps I use a piece of heater hose wedged in under the rotor to lock it, still able to turn the rotor but enough friction to hold in place. The bike is slightly raised on the left side to prevent oil from running out and I do prefer using an ohm meter to set the timing over a test light so I don't have to worry about overheating the coils and running the battery down.
View attachment 49661
After setting the timing and buttoning up the covers I decided to do another compression test and spin the engine over a bit to get the oil up to the top end. Compression tested the same at 160 PSI both cylinders. I went for another engine start and here are the results. Let me know if anyone cannot see the videos. There is a fan in front of the engine but hard to see.
First start, glad I spun the engine up a bit to oil the cams and such.
Eng start1 9-12-25.MOV
Adjusted the idle speed down a bit and tried again. After it started played with the air mixture screws some as well. You may hear some pops from the exhaust and muffles leaks.
Eng start2 9-12-25.MOV
Feeling pretty darn good about it so far but need to get the filters on and see if I can fine tune it a bit more. A little closer to the wind!
RobMan
Veteran Member
Better late than never and thank you for all your help getting this far. BTW in case you missed it my bikes name is now "Vroom Vroom" courtesy of Brody!
You should get a sticker made for the lower part of the rear fender under the tag, it would look cool.Better late than never and thank you for all your help getting this far. BTW in case you missed it my bikes name is now "Vroom Vroom" courtesy of Brody!
RobMan
Veteran Member
Well that was easy. But you want something unique though, right?
RobMan
Veteran Member
That will probably be the last thing on the bike so I have time to find someone to make just the right decal.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
After some boredom and google's AI picture generator, I quickly came up with this.
"Vintage Honda logo and font, marigold logo, gold font, north carolina accents."
RobMan
Veteran Member
Heck if it gets any better it would have to be tank art!
stl360+450
Veteran Member
A guy has to be careful what he writes around here! Not trying to influence anything, I will share a picture from a local bike night several years ago. This was on a middle-aged Harley's fender. It was obviously hand done, but I liked the style of it.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Rob, what are your plans for painting the tank? Are you going to try to reproduce a Honda color? With reproduction decals? Send it to @Danager4792?
Danager4792
Veteran Member
That's a very flattering statement there Brody, I appreciate it. Unfortunately, I don't have any clearcoat experience as of yet. I would hate for the result to be anything less than perfect. In the back of my head I am open to the challenge though.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Honestly I was still up in the air about the tank and side covers. I have went back and forth from rattle can to having it professionally done. I am not committed to any color style. Heck I remember looking at the pictures of you 74 450 when you first got it and thinking the black looked darn good. Anyway no decision yet and the tanks and side covers need body work.
RobMan
Veteran Member
If memory serves the tank you were working on turned out pretty darn good or are you still working on it?
stl360+450
Veteran Member
You did a great job with that silver base coat and I'm excited to see how the top coat and clear turns out. You can always wet sand and polish the clear, so as long as you get low humidity I think it's going to be awesome.
I think I'd vote at least for reproduction decals. They produce some sort of authenticity in my opinion, but I think there's room for alternative colors.
I kept the original black tank and covers that came on my bike intact. The ones I painted last summer were purchased used. I got a custom set of white tank decals and used an over the counter Duplicolor black with a bit of flake.
One of the original colors that I like is the candy gold with black or white decals. Actually, the white looks a little better to me right now.
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Danager4792
Veteran Member
I'm still in the process of completing the candy orange paint job(three-stage). It's supposedly the most difficult paint job you can do. The top coat(candy) over the silver metallic has to be layered enough to get the color shade that you want. It kind of acts like transparent colored clearcoat. You will be able to see the orange paint, but the underlying coat of silver and metallic will pop through. I have already done my side covers and headlight bucket, I just need to clearcoat them.
These are the stages for my candy paint job:
-Remove paint down to bare metal
-Dent removal and bondo work
-Etching primer
-Filler primer
-Metallic basecoat
-Candy colored coat
-Stencil or decal application
-Clearcoat
That's just the simple explanation. A lot of sanding and correction is involved in between some of those steps. I have finished the metallic basecoat on the tank. Everything else is waiting on clearcoat. A much simpler job would be a two-stage paint job, where you apply the metallic coat and then clearcoat. It won't have the "candy" effects though.
Gold is definitely my favorite color of the CB450's. My 2nd favorite would be blue, maybe that came on the 750's?
Roth metal flake actually sells a candy gold
KANDY RATTLE BOMBGold Fashioned
RBK313 Gold Fashioned Kandy - 12 oz Can Gold Fashioned Kandy is a transparent layer of paint that goes over a Basecoat/Flake to add depth and create a more vivid paint job. While this step is optional, this is where you can be the most creative, as there are many Basecoat/Kandy combinations that...
rothmetalflake.com
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RobMan
Veteran Member
Way above my skills. I am not a paint and body person and I don't try to delude myself. My 72 originally was painted light ruby red which is a nice color and I am considering it just for the OEM look with the gold decals.
This is a pic from BAT with a nice example.
This is a pic from BAT with a nice example.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That would look very nice. And, the gold decals were available from 4-into-1 the last time I checked (along with black). There are other sources as well.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Yes I have seen where the paint is available from several vendors and the decals as well. If I do go that route I will have to get new side cover emblems as well which 4into1 has.
Actually I am going to take another look at the rear wheel tomorrow and make a plan of attack. The rim on the donor hub is decent with pretty good chrome but the spokes are corroded and it is from a later model, K6 or K7 with the black chain guard mounted to the rear sprocket. As for the rear wheel that came with the bike the hub is in good shape but the rim and spokes are shot and will have to be replaced. I will have to do a good inspection of both hubs to see which one I decide to use.
Actually I am going to take another look at the rear wheel tomorrow and make a plan of attack. The rim on the donor hub is decent with pretty good chrome but the spokes are corroded and it is from a later model, K6 or K7 with the black chain guard mounted to the rear sprocket. As for the rear wheel that came with the bike the hub is in good shape but the rim and spokes are shot and will have to be replaced. I will have to do a good inspection of both hubs to see which one I decide to use.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Looks like "light ruby red" is the simpler two-stage paint job. Do you have any current pictures of your tank and side covers you could post?
RobMan
Veteran Member
I will take some pictures tomorrow and post them. About to hit the sack.
I like your color choice
RobMan
Veteran Member
And that is a totally impartial endorsement?I like your color choice