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AD
1971 CL450 that sat for 40 years.
- Thread starter Danager4792
- Start date
stl360+450
Veteran Member
It looks like there is a spot for the switch, so you probably have the correct perch and just need a front brake switch.
Have you ordered all new cables already? If not, I would.
Have you ordered all new cables already? If not, I would.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I have a new throttle cable. I figured all of them would need to be tended to eventually. I appreciate you pointing that out though, that reminds me to start saving some to my parts list.
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Notice how the lock nut on the front brake cable adjuster seems larger than original and partially covers the hole where the front brake switch goes? Yet another thing on your bike that might not be original. I'll get a pic of mine later for comparison. And yes, I'd replace all the cable at this point. Did you buy a gray throttle cable (original color), or black? Honda went to black cables later but the originals on your bike were all gray.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I bought a black one. I didn’t know that about the colors. Also, I was slightly suspicious about that front brake adjuster. I thought that little “cut” in the adjuster had something to do with making room for the cable.
The cut is so it will allow cable replacement without having to include a new adjuster, notice that the adjuster itself also has a cut in it. This is typical on all Hondas of the era, and really all manually-adjusted cables on bikes so it's a familiarity thing. There are so many little details that you wouldn't be familiar with unless you were around these bikes during that era or not long after, while they were still in original form without decades of non-stock replacement parts being added. Stuff like that stands out to me because I know exactly how they were equipped when new. It also helps to study pictures of them when they were new, like old sales brochures.
Check these out, zoom in for details
HONDA Brochure CL450 CL450-K4 Scrambler 1971 Sales Catalog REPRO | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for HONDA Brochure CL450 CL450-K4 Scrambler 1971 Sales Catalog REPRO at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
HONDA Brochure CL450 K3 Scrambler 1970 CL450K3 Sales Catalog REPRO | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for HONDA Brochure CL450 K3 Scrambler 1970 CL450K3 Sales Catalog REPRO at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
Danager4792
Veteran Member
It can also be a huge disadvantage to be missing a few subtle parts as well. Such as the D-washers, and in this case the brake switch cable. Here’s another item I’m pretty sure missing as well. The silver “bridge”?? When I’m missing parts.. I don’t even know the names of them. Haha. I suppose that’s where the parts diagram would come into play.
It's a cable guide, though I don't know the exact name Honda called it. When the cables are original and proper fit, they work correctly with it but of course, once the OEM cables are no longer available and you have to buy aftermarket, the lengths may be slightly different which can cause routing needs to change. cables have to be the right length to account for turning the front wheel without them binding or, in the case of the throttle cable, causing idle speed changes by the cable being too short to properly accommodate the turn of the bars, so re-routing cables to account for length differences can lead to removing that part. I couldn't use it on my 450 build since I'm using lower CB400F bars.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Ahh.. that makes sense.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I never try to switch gears too much on this project thread. But here’s the before & after of the original harness vs. the one I received.
Obviously it looks much better, almost normal. 
What about the green ground wire at the ground end of the battery? I see it next to the battery but can't see where the end of it is connected. It needs to be on a 6mm (10mm headed) bolt in the frame somewhere nearby to add a ground for the harness itself.
And don't worry about jumping around in your build thread, it's a thread that encompasses everything you're doing to the bike so it's completely fine.
What about the green ground wire at the ground end of the battery? I see it next to the battery but can't see where the end of it is connected. It needs to be on a 6mm (10mm headed) bolt in the frame somewhere nearby to add a ground for the harness itself.And don't worry about jumping around in your build thread, it's a thread that encompasses everything you're doing to the bike so it's completely fine.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
In the original photo above, do you see the skinny black wire with the ring terminal sticking straight up? It’s in the exact same location as that one, except it’s a green wire with a fork terminal. I meant to ask about it’s location. I’ll take another pic when I get home and find that frame bolt. Currently, my text box options are blank, can’t post a picture.
Yeah, it wouldn't have a fork terminal from the factory, Honda never did that. It would be better with a ring terminal. Green is Honda ground, so as long as it's connected to a clean spot on the frame the harness will get the ground it needs.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Continuing on with the main agenda:
Camchain was adjusted once the exhaust side had tension while opening up an exhaust valve.
All four valve clearances have been set to .003”(0.08mm). This was a clearance AD instructed me on setting it to, in regards to my specific bike and it’s needs.
Next on the list is points timing. I would like to review these steps before continuing. The current tool I have for it, is a test lamp with a single alligator clip.
Camchain was adjusted once the exhaust side had tension while opening up an exhaust valve.
All four valve clearances have been set to .003”(0.08mm). This was a clearance AD instructed me on setting it to, in regards to my specific bike and it’s needs.
Next on the list is points timing. I would like to review these steps before continuing. The current tool I have for it, is a test lamp with a single alligator clip.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I really like using a voltmeter with a couple of alligator clip extension wires. Connect black to a ground, red to the point. Set the meter to Ohms and watch for the change in resistance as the points open. This can be done with the power off, so there is no risk of draining the battery or frying a coil. You can disconnect the points leads from the coils for this also.
12ozPBR
Veteran Member
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Looks to me like your top bridge has been replaced at some point and may be from a CB750. It has the two little ”nubs” in the center as well as the bottom handlebar perch is molded as part of the top tree instead of bolting through with rubber vibration isolators. Not a big deal but just something I noticed in the above photo.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I will take all the information I can about this bike. It helps with its story. When I told my dad all of the details about the front end, he was suspicious that it had been wrecked before. I would have to look back to be accurate about this from Tom’s comments, but I believe he said the front fender is from a CB, and the front suspension is from a K5
Good eye Chris, I completely missed that. It will change the bar height slightly. I should have noticed that the gauges seem a bit wider apart as well. Forest for the trees when you're focusing on other stuff.
As to that perch and the brake switch hole, this is what mine looks like but in fairness, the perches I used aren't original either (they're from 4into1) but the relationship should be similar.
It could even have CB750 forks on it complete, they were all 35mm at that time and the left lower leg had the caliper bracket mounts on them whether it was used or not, that's how my K5 forks are. That would explain the top bridge. If this bike could talk it would have many interesting (and heinous as well, I'm convinced) stories to tell.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
When I get to the suspension/front end part of this bike, will I be searching for “750” compatible parts? Or will we need to verify more first That it is 750 forks.
Depends on what you'll need, but for example fork seals will be the same so it won't matter, in fact I'd be surprised if it causes much of an issue at all. Honda didn't do that kind of thing much, but back then when the first disc brakes were added to Hondas after the CB750 came out with one they just used some common parts. Mt Dad's CB450K4 was a good example while I was in high school and had my CL450K4, I didn't realize it at the time but his 450 basically had the same front end as the 750 because of the disc brake. If/when something comes up, we'll help you figure it out.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Roger that.. it will probably be a good while until I get to that part of the equation. Right now I’m preparing to do the points. Currently I have a test lamp with a single alligator clip. I have been reading/looking at a mixture of youtube videos, Bill Lane’s guide, and the FSM.
Test light works fine, but when doing it that way you also have to keenly aware of how long you leave the key on, because whichever set of points is closed for a while will be overheating the coil associated with it. the ohm meter method mentioned by Brody (stl360+450) would be safer.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Yep, that would work. You'd want to use it on a low ohm setting, adjusted using the Range button. It appears to have a continuity tone so it might beep when the points are closed and stop beeping when they open.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Roger that. I just ordered it. When I receive it, I’ll most likely need a write-up on how to do the points. So far I know to ground the black clip, and then connect the red one to the point bolt at the bottom. And then set the points gaps to .014” when they are at their widest. But I have never used a voltmeter, or know that much yet about turning the crankshaft to proper positions, etc.
Not too difficult. Set the ohm meter to ohms, then using the range button set it to a low range like 10 ohms (or use the continuity feature it seems to have based on the picture of it). You can connect the positive clip to the points spring, easier than the small bolt where the wire connects. The ohms setting is marked by the arrow, the audible indicator it seems to have is marked by the white oval and the Range button will adjust the ohms reading range of the readout. If the audible continuity is actually present as it seems to be, choose that and use the tone or beeps it makes to know when the points are closed or open.
Your base setting for the points plate is here, note the notches in the plate and the cutout in the top of the points base/cam bearing cover. Set the plate at that position, then rotate the engine to set the points gap at .014" (separately, since while both are open at the same time during a portion of rotation they may not both be open fully at that point)
Danager4792
Veteran Member
After setting the gaps correctly, will there be any reason to “notch” the points back and forth, and use the LF mark on the crankshaft?
Edit: I have been reading a lot about this operation, and am currently still connecting dots in my head.
This is the proper procedure to follow.
While aligning the points plate with the cutout at the top is a good start, the proper method involves first turning the engine until the breaker cam opens first the left set of points to the fully open position and setting the gap of that set of points at .014", then turning the engine until the right set of points is fully open and setting them at .014", then adjust the left side timing by rotating the points plate so the left points break at LF. You then lock the points plate and check the timing on the right cylinder to see if the points break at the F mark and if they do not, you adjust the gap to get the right points to break at F. If after that adjustment is made, the gap on the right points is less than .012", you go back to the beginning and reduce the left points gap to .012", set that timing by rotating the plate to open at LF, then check the right side again and adjust the right points to open at F.
Yes, it can take a few tries to get both correct, but that is the procedure since there is only one plate that both sets of points are mounted on, so when you rotate the plate to advance or retard the left timing it affects both.
While aligning the points plate with the cutout at the top is a good start, the proper method involves first turning the engine until the breaker cam opens first the left set of points to the fully open position and setting the gap of that set of points at .014", then turning the engine until the right set of points is fully open and setting them at .014", then adjust the left side timing by rotating the points plate so the left points break at LF. You then lock the points plate and check the timing on the right cylinder to see if the points break at the F mark and if they do not, you adjust the gap to get the right points to break at F. If after that adjustment is made, the gap on the right points is less than .012", you go back to the beginning and reduce the left points gap to .012", set that timing by rotating the plate to open at LF, then check the right side again and adjust the right points to open at F.
Yes, it can take a few tries to get both correct, but that is the procedure since there is only one plate that both sets of points are mounted on, so when you rotate the plate to advance or retard the left timing it affects both.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Thank you, that paints a clear picture now. Screenshotting this.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
To get a feel for everything while parts/tools arrive, I started turning the engine over manually to look at the gaps on the points.
The right point opens and closes just fine. The left point is continuously closed and never opens. The camshaft never touches the heel of the left point.
The past day I have been unable to post pics, the text box menu icons are blank.
The right point opens and closes just fine. The left point is continuously closed and never opens. The camshaft never touches the heel of the left point.
The past day I have been unable to post pics, the text box menu icons are blank.
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But did you try to adjust the left points? The range of adjustment should allow you to get the points to open, it's unlikely that the fiber rubbing block is worn so much that it can't be adjusted.
I have a couple concerns: first, the washer on the bolt in the advancer doesn't look like the original. It should be a hardened black washer that has a larger than normal outer diameter to 'cover' the breaker cam lobe to prevent outward movement, and the bolt goes into the washer with no other washers involved (it kinda looks like there might be a lock washer added on top of the flat washer). Second, the left points wire terminal looks suspiciously close to where the points cover will sit and if it's too close it could arc to the cover and kill that cylinder, though it could just be the angle of the picture. A straight-on picture that includes the entire points plate area clearly would help.
I have a couple concerns: first, the washer on the bolt in the advancer doesn't look like the original. It should be a hardened black washer that has a larger than normal outer diameter to 'cover' the breaker cam lobe to prevent outward movement, and the bolt goes into the washer with no other washers involved (it kinda looks like there might be a lock washer added on top of the flat washer). Second, the left points wire terminal looks suspiciously close to where the points cover will sit and if it's too close it could arc to the cover and kill that cylinder, though it could just be the angle of the picture. A straight-on picture that includes the entire points plate area clearly would help.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Accidentally uploaded these three pictures in album form.
Much better, thanks. You need to remove the lock washer on the advancer bolt, the added thickness might cause the bolt to rub on the points cover and it didn't come from the factory with it. If it doesn't rub the cover it won't cause any harm, but again it wasn't put together that way from the factory. The left points wire terminal looks clear of any interference with the points cover from these much better pictures.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I have not tried to adjust the left point yet. If I were to move the upper block to the right to make a gap, wouldn’t that in turn move the bottom of the black more to the left, away from the camshaft?
How did you adjust the right set of points? Or did you have to?
It's incredibly simple, but understanding how it works would help. I'll put something together.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I have not touched the right side point yet, they are opening and closing.
The left side isn’t opening, the heel isn’t touching the camshaft
I understand. I think the fear of doing something wrong is keeping you from trying to do anything right at the moment, and when I finish what I'm doing to show you how simple it is, you'll be wondering how you didn't already figure it out.
Here is as simple as I can break it down.
Then watch this video to understand what I mean. The right set of points adjusts the same way if needed.
Then watch this video to understand what I mean. The right set of points adjusts the same way if needed.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
So the camshaft kicking the heel makes the point gaps open.. I thought they were two separate adjustments. Lol. Yeah that’s way too simple..
Danager4792
Veteran Member
I understand. I think the fear of doing something wrong is keeping you from trying to do anything right at the moment, and when I finish what I'm doing to show you how simple it is, you'll be wondering how you didn't already figure it out.
As some say, “this ain’t my first rodeo!”. Well unfortunately for me this is my first rodeo lol. I’m probably overcautious when I attempt new mechanical skills, plus I overthink as well.
Not sure I'd describe it quite like that, but yes. But they ARE 2 separate adjustments, one for each set of points by loosening the 2 screws on each set.
Now to confuse you even more, this is the proper procedure for setting the (static) timing. It should be checked with a strobe light (dynamic timing) afterward, but we'll get into that later. Read through this a few times.
------------------------------------------------------
While aligning the points plate with the cutout at the top is a good start, the proper method involves first turning the engine until the breaker cam opens first the left set of points to the fully open position and setting the gap of that set of points at .014", then turning the engine until the right set of points is fully open and setting them at .014", then adjust the left side timing by rotating the points plate so the left points break at LF. You then lock the points plate and check the timing on the right cylinder to see if the points break at the F mark and if they do not, you adjust the gap to get the right points to break at F. If after that adjustment is made, the gap on the right points is less than .012", you go back to the beginning and reduce the left points gap to .012", set that timing by rotating the plate to open at LF, then check the right side again and adjust the right points to open at F.
Yes, it can take a few tries to get both correct, but that is the procedure since there is only one plate that both sets of points are mounted on, so when you rotate the plate to advance or retard the left timing it affects both.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
A few questions about the carburetors while I’m waiting on tools and parts to correctly do the points.
When I first took the carbs off, I disassembled them and took the old internal parts out and set them aside. Then I ran the carb bodies through an ultra sonic cleaner. When they came out, I also sprayed carb cleaner in every open jet/hole that I could multiple times. All passages seemed to be clear. I then installed new internal parts from those guys in Houston’s rebuild kits. This was before I learned about price shopping and better companies out there, etc. As I have been reading multiple carb related posts on this forum, I realize a couple of problems with this:
First, I should have cleaned my original internal parts and re-used them. That is what I’m gonna do now.
Second, I put the aluminum heads of the carbs in the ultrasonic cleaner not knowing that it would stain them a dark color. I’ve tried endlessly to get this dark stain removed. The carb body is fine. I am open minded to using a different method to cleaning the carb bodies, as they could still use more cleaning. I read about Bill Lane’s use of a carb chem-dip bucket.
My main concern:
I’m still learning the names of the outer adjustment screws, and their purpose. If you look at both idle screws on the carbs, one has a bigger gap, and the screw doesn’t line up perfectly with where the screw lands.
Left carb:
Right carb that acts as it should.
When I first took the carbs off, I disassembled them and took the old internal parts out and set them aside. Then I ran the carb bodies through an ultra sonic cleaner. When they came out, I also sprayed carb cleaner in every open jet/hole that I could multiple times. All passages seemed to be clear. I then installed new internal parts from those guys in Houston’s rebuild kits. This was before I learned about price shopping and better companies out there, etc. As I have been reading multiple carb related posts on this forum, I realize a couple of problems with this:
First, I should have cleaned my original internal parts and re-used them. That is what I’m gonna do now.
Second, I put the aluminum heads of the carbs in the ultrasonic cleaner not knowing that it would stain them a dark color. I’ve tried endlessly to get this dark stain removed. The carb body is fine. I am open minded to using a different method to cleaning the carb bodies, as they could still use more cleaning. I read about Bill Lane’s use of a carb chem-dip bucket.
My main concern:
I’m still learning the names of the outer adjustment screws, and their purpose. If you look at both idle screws on the carbs, one has a bigger gap, and the screw doesn’t line up perfectly with where the screw lands.
Left carb:
Right carb that acts as it should.
You removed the throttle plate didn't you?
Looks like it's in backwards which would hold the linkage open.
Looks like it's in backwards which would hold the linkage open.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
Nope.. never touched the throttle plate. Left it ‘as is’ while I disassembled everything else. I can’t believe it. Thanks a lot.
Yep, someone has been there before you and did it wrong evidently, which is really no surprise considering how long these things have been around. Plenty of time for tomfoolery and hi-jinks.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
To verify the throttle plate orientation, check for a bevel along the top edge of the plate (there's a bevel on the bottom as well). The sloped edge on top should face towards the rear of the carb body. The purpose is to allow the plate to fit snug in the bore yet have enough clearance to rotate as the throttle is opened. The orientation of the bevel on the bottom should be facing forward for the same reason.
Also, be careful if you do need to remove the throttle plate screws. They can be difficult to remove without stripping.
Also, be careful if you do need to remove the throttle plate screws. They can be difficult to remove without stripping.
Danager4792
Veteran Member
There is something else that I would like to add. When I was turning the throttle plate by hand last night, I was hearing this all familiar squeak. The last time this bike was running, I was hearing a very loud squeak from this bike and moving the throttle plate sounds just like it.. It’s from where the top of the plate was rubbing. Is it possible this where the sound was coming from?