stl360+450
Veteran Member
The only problem right now is that many parts are out for powder coating, but I'll see what I can do.
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1971 CB350 . . . 40 year hibernation
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The only problem right now is that many parts are out for powder coating, but I'll see what I can do.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I ordered bearing kits from 4-into-1 and the kit for the front wheel came with the seal as well. Turns out the kit has three different seals because it is intended for use with a variety of models. The original seal has a 42mm OD and 26mm ID. One of the seals in the kit has the same OD and ID, but the profile is not the same. Should I order the correct seal elsewhere or will it be okay to use the provided seal? (The original has the raised edge on the inner diameter.)
jensen
Veteran Member
Left one has a dust seal, the right one not. A dust seal is mandatory when the seal seals the area between bearing and outer side of a wheel shaft. However, the right one will work, but the real question would be "how long"?
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks, Jensen. Rather than conduct that particular experiment, I have ordered the correct seal. =)
And thanks for explaining the purpose of that raised edge!
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I rode my XL over to the cycle shop where my stuff is being powder coated. Should have things back sometime next week! I'll be away visiting family the week after, but will be anxious to get going after the trip. I ordered tires and tubes while I was there. Once the rims are done, I'll lace the wheels and bring them back to the shop for truing and mounting.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
If someone could explain how the tail light pigtail is removed from the base, I would appreciate it. I was thinking to tumble the base and see how it cleans up.
Pretty sure you would have to remove the spring-loaded socket base where the two lead contacts are in the circular fiber with the wires soldered to the backside, then the wires are slipped through the bottom of the socket and out the back of the assembly. You won't be able to remove the plastic spacer-gasket on the outside in the right hand picture as you can see the rolled edge where the wires come through the metal where the ground tab is.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks, Tom. I think you anticipated what I was really hoping to do, which is separate everything into the pieces shown in the parts diagram. Do you happen to know what holds part 13 to part 8/9? I guess they're not intended to come apart?
Correct. The rolled edge at the arrow was a tube inserted through the assembly and pressed over to hold those parts together.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Ah, I see now. Thanks for explaining the significance of that rolled edge.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I spent some time working with my flux welder this afternoon trying to repair the damaged brackets and mounting bolt on my CL350 exhaust.
I worked on the mounting bolt first. My welds tend to have a lot of spatter so I iterate between welding and cleaning up spatter with a flapper wheel. This went a little south on me with the thickness of the bracket. I noticed it was getting thin after cleaning up the weld at one point, so I added a piece of 1/8" flat stock underneath the thin area and welded that into the mix. I tried to add material around the bolt itself as well. At the end of the day, I feel like I have a good nominee for the ugliest weld in the history of time, but there is a lot more metal than there was to start with and some of it is welded together now. Edit: I originally mislabeled the area that needed repair in the "after" photo -- it's the uglier side, of course.
I also worked on the damaged brackets on the lower portion of the exhaust. The t-nut on bracket #1 broke off when I tried to bend it back into place. I still tried to remove the 6mm stub that was in it, but once that became difficult I decided to just weld a 6mm nut to the bracket (upper right). I used my rotary tool to notch the stub in the t-nut for bracket #2 and with a combination of penetrating oil and a hand impact, I was able to remove the stub (middle right). I then cleaned up the threads with a 6mm x 1.0 tap (lower left). I made a bracket to replace the missing bracket #3 and welded it in the location of the previous welds as best I could. I welded a nut to the bracket afterwards and then had to use my rotary tool to open the hole on the other side of the nut so a bolt could find its way to the threads. The new bracket #3 is shown in the lower center and lower right pictures. Once this was all done, I mounted the heat shield using some 6mm allen head bolts I had on hand (upper left).
The shop owner who is doing my powder coating is an excellent welder. I'm planning to have him paint/coat the exhaust and I'll check with him to see if my repairs should be re-repaired before that work is done. It was good practice for me, but I'd like to do better.
I worked on the mounting bolt first. My welds tend to have a lot of spatter so I iterate between welding and cleaning up spatter with a flapper wheel. This went a little south on me with the thickness of the bracket. I noticed it was getting thin after cleaning up the weld at one point, so I added a piece of 1/8" flat stock underneath the thin area and welded that into the mix. I tried to add material around the bolt itself as well. At the end of the day, I feel like I have a good nominee for the ugliest weld in the history of time, but there is a lot more metal than there was to start with and some of it is welded together now. Edit: I originally mislabeled the area that needed repair in the "after" photo -- it's the uglier side, of course.
I also worked on the damaged brackets on the lower portion of the exhaust. The t-nut on bracket #1 broke off when I tried to bend it back into place. I still tried to remove the 6mm stub that was in it, but once that became difficult I decided to just weld a 6mm nut to the bracket (upper right). I used my rotary tool to notch the stub in the t-nut for bracket #2 and with a combination of penetrating oil and a hand impact, I was able to remove the stub (middle right). I then cleaned up the threads with a 6mm x 1.0 tap (lower left). I made a bracket to replace the missing bracket #3 and welded it in the location of the previous welds as best I could. I welded a nut to the bracket afterwards and then had to use my rotary tool to open the hole on the other side of the nut so a bolt could find its way to the threads. The new bracket #3 is shown in the lower center and lower right pictures. Once this was all done, I mounted the heat shield using some 6mm allen head bolts I had on hand (upper left).
The shop owner who is doing my powder coating is an excellent welder. I'm planning to have him paint/coat the exhaust and I'll check with him to see if my repairs should be re-repaired before that work is done. It was good practice for me, but I'd like to do better.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Looks pretty darn good for first go. Should be strong enough for a heat shield. It is hard to see with the tip in the way but keeping the tip against the piece reduces spatter. I use a little chisel to knock off the spall balls, rather than a grinder and I start with a wire wheel too. Sometimes I only weld for 1 second then stop, brush, clip the feed wire way back then repeat.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks for the support, Tom, as well as the tips. I'll keep looking for opportunities to practice and incorporate your suggestions.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
You're welcome, I try to be honest with my hack, novice, johnny come lately advice. As long as we're trainable...
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I moved my junkyard motor from the detached garage to my basement this morning so I can take advantage of space and air conditioning for the disassembly. My house has a basement stairwell, but it was still a pain moving it that far alone. I'll plan to move it back to the garage without the clutch basket, rotor/stator, and top end.
When I bought the junkyard motor, the owner gave me a grab bag of stuff (mostly fasteners) that had come from a CB350. This was right after the basement of the junkyard had flooded and the contents seemed pretty nasty with a few different bundles wrapped up in plastic bags and masking tape. I accepted the package mostly to be polite, but opened it all up yesterday after I realized it could be a real asset to have spare fasteners for this project given the incomplete state of the original project bike. I soaked everything in a rust remover (concrete etcher), rinsed everything quickly with water, and then dumped it all into some old motor oil. It was really nice of the owner to think of it and throw these things in with the parts I purchased.
After doing some "welding" on my exhaust pieces yesterday, I wanted to shake out some of the little bits rattling in the upper muffler. I still have a few more to get out, but it looks like a combination of lost metal and, maybe, rat poison? The bolt in the picture is for scale only - it is an M6 x 20mm bolt.
When I bought the junkyard motor, the owner gave me a grab bag of stuff (mostly fasteners) that had come from a CB350. This was right after the basement of the junkyard had flooded and the contents seemed pretty nasty with a few different bundles wrapped up in plastic bags and masking tape. I accepted the package mostly to be polite, but opened it all up yesterday after I realized it could be a real asset to have spare fasteners for this project given the incomplete state of the original project bike. I soaked everything in a rust remover (concrete etcher), rinsed everything quickly with water, and then dumped it all into some old motor oil. It was really nice of the owner to think of it and throw these things in with the parts I purchased.
After doing some "welding" on my exhaust pieces yesterday, I wanted to shake out some of the little bits rattling in the upper muffler. I still have a few more to get out, but it looks like a combination of lost metal and, maybe, rat poison? The bolt in the picture is for scale only - it is an M6 x 20mm bolt.
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
By concrete etcher I assume you mean muriatic acid.
In addition to removing the rust it will also remove the zinc plating.
But yeah, extra bolts and such are always good to have.
And that does kind of look like rat poison.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Actually, what I used is less aggressive than muriatic acid, but I always forget the exact product name. It's Klean Strip Concrete and Metal Prep and I believe the active ingredient is phosphoric acid (also found in Coca Cola). I learned about phosphoric acid rust removal from Richard Pittman's thread. I can't say for sure if it will remove the zinc plating, but I suspect not. If it does, I may have to reconsider my two cokes a day habit!
Cycleranger
Veteran Member
Ah, phosphoric is a better choice. Less aggressive. I don't know if it will strip zinc outright, might form zinc phosphate, a form of parkerizing, which theoretically could be good.
jensen
Veteran Member
Yes, It will dissolve the zinc plating, but that's exactly what you want. Now you can see small damages and smoothen them before re-plating. If you gonna re-plate, make sure you find a plater who does drum plating, cheap and efficient. I pay around 40 euro's for 20 kg's, that 2 euro / kg.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks, Jensen. You know, I should have realized it was reacting with the zinc due to the initial foaming that occurred - somehow I wrote that off as having to do with the rust removal. There does seem to be a local business that does zinc barrel (drum) plating close to me, although it's not clear if they do small jobs of this nature.
jensen
Veteran Member
A cool six-pack will definitely help....
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I disassembled the top end of the junkyard motor today. Compression tests on this motor showed over 150 psi for each cylinder last fall and that gave me a false sense of security about the condition of the motor. The rocker arm followers are shown below (exhaust on top, left/right matching cylinder arrangement). They are all fried.
The next picture shows a typical cam lobe (also fried) and the worm screw on the end of the cam seems to have eaten a spacer or something. The metal looks fused together. The cylinders don't look bad to me, nor does the head. The rust on the valves for the right cylinder suggest to me that they were open as the motor sat for years and years in the indoor salvage yard.
I'll plan to do a closer inspection of the cylinders as I think about boring vs. honing, but I don't even plan to consider using the cam or rocker arms.
The next picture shows a typical cam lobe (also fried) and the worm screw on the end of the cam seems to have eaten a spacer or something. The metal looks fused together. The cylinders don't look bad to me, nor does the head. The rust on the valves for the right cylinder suggest to me that they were open as the motor sat for years and years in the indoor salvage yard.
I'll plan to do a closer inspection of the cylinders as I think about boring vs. honing, but I don't even plan to consider using the cam or rocker arms.
That engine led a hard life
stl360+450
Veteran Member
How could that even happen? Isn't it crazy that both cylinders showed good compression?
It was undoubtedly rebuilt at least once if not more, and along the way who knows what piece got in there and caused those nicks. That's mild compared to some we've seen, when rings break and pieces of rings get above the piston they really do some damage to the head. And to me, the cam and rockers probably got wiped out after a different rebuild and very possibly due to oil starvation. I wonder what other fun discoveries you'll make when you pull the right crankcase cover and look at the oil pump screen and centrifugal filter.
And I meant to mention that the valves are sitting pretty nicely in the head so it doesn't look to have had the seats cut.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I was also able to pick up my powder coated parts today. The chrome on the fenders was a little rough and that caused a couple of rough spots on the powder coat, but I am still happy with the results.
I'm having a hard time envisioning this bike put together with the light and dark silver mixed... looking forward to pictures of it as it goes along. Parts look really good though, a quality job based on the pics.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see how the blend of dark and light works out. I saw that some of the SL models had matching paint on the fenders, tank, and side covers. That's where the dark silver will be.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I also found something I've never run across before. Two of the studs had what seems to be a seal around them. At first I thought this was the smoking gun for the damage to the top end, but the two seals are found on the outer, front studs, while the oil path seems to go up the left, rear stud and down the right, rear stud.
Are these factory?
Are these factory?
Yes, they are factory and they are not involved with the oiling. Jim reached the conclusion they might be vibration dampers IIRC. I'm pretty sure the 350 feeds the top end up both rear studs and it returns down the tunnel. Remember, the 6mm bolt in the rocker/cam cover to the rear of the left cam bearing is to check flow to the top, and it's right off the left rear stud.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks, Tom. I'm still adjusting to the differences between the 350 motor and those on my other bikes. And, so far, I'm only getting practice with tear downs!
I see that Megacycle has a cam for this motor that will run with stock pistons and springs. What would that run $$-wise? (roughly)
I see that Megacycle has a cam for this motor that will run with stock pistons and springs. What would that run $$-wise? (roughly)
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Those all look good. I like your idea and think it'll look sharp.
I'd guess between $400 and $500, maybe cheaper but it's been 6 years since I dealt with them. Finding a fat/early cam for the 350 would get you the 10,500 rpm redline and a peakier powerband, but unless you got lucky and found one with rocker arms for a good price you'd probably spend about the same
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks for the vote of confidence in the color scheme. Fingers crossed...
And that's counting the 50% off for sohc vs. dohc? Or do they charge by the lobe?? I will have to weigh options.
I understand what you mean and it could be cheaper, not sure. They don't list any prices at their really old website, only the cam list by models. You have to call and speak to his wife, who can be pretty difficult if you're calling about anything but spending money with them.
https://www.megacyclecams.com/catalog/catalog_optimized.pdf
This might tell you something about their pricing - they get $100 each to refurbish 450 cam followers.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I figure most catalogs without prices omit them with good reason. It doesn't make sense to put so much effort into a bike and use a bad cam, so if I must pay, I'll pay. If I don't come up with a better option, I'll just call with the idea of buying the 123-00 cam.
And here's the thing - that catalog has been unchanged for well over 7 years, I know that for a fact. The way prices have gone up on everything in the last 5 years or so, they'd have been revising it often. In their defense, nobody does it any better than they do.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I'm about to lace my wheels. I've wondered this before and don't know: is there a correct orientation for the rim relative to the hub?
How are the bearing ends on that cam? If good then Oregon can can resurface it and Rockers Unlimited can probably repair the rockers although they'd have to make that call given the damage.
Be sure to check the cam bearing surfaces for damage.
I did make the assumption that those rubbers on the 2 outer front studs were for vibration and later I read an article that confirmed it, Didn't save a copy like I should have.
Be sure to check the cam bearing surfaces for damage.
I did make the assumption that those rubbers on the 2 outer front studs were for vibration and later I read an article that confirmed it, Didn't save a copy like I should have.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
No, unless you want to read DID from a certain side.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thank you, Tom. I compared with another old wheel I had laying around and decided my DID will match that wheel, to be read from the right side of the bike. Hopefully I'll remember to think about that tomorrow when I lace the rear wheel. Nothing worse than someone noticing the DIDs don't match! Mostly I'm glad to know that it doesn't matter. I wondered about this when I laced up my CB360 wheels and couldn't find an answer on the forums, so eventually decided it wouldn't matter for that bike. I'll have to check the DID orientations on those wheels.
The cam looks very bad to me, but let's see what you and others have to say about it. At this point I'd rather run a new Megacycle cam than send one of my cams out for repair, but I will remain open to either possibility. I'll have a closer look at the cam bearings soon. I'm particularly worried about the tach side given the mess of metal on that end of the cam. I think I have two of the points-side bearings, but only the one for the tach side.
I'll be heading out of town to visit family this weekend, so my project will be mostly on pause for about 10 days soon.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Heck most people don't even lace their shoes the same on both feet. Have a good visit.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
At least you are not obsessed about symmetric spoke lacing as I was. It takes a lot longer, that's why most factory wheels are laced asymmetric. Plus the tiny dents on the hub flanges where the spokes lay against it might also deter some.
Blue Dream CA78 - Page 3 (vintagehondatwins.com)
post #82. It's kind of a spoke geek thing.
Blue Dream CA78 - Page 3 (vintagehondatwins.com)
post #82. It's kind of a spoke geek thing.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
The symmetric pattern has a nice look and I can imagine it's harder to accomplish. That front wheel took me longer than I'd care to admit yesterday. My second time lacing wheels, but I had already forgotten a few important things about how I did it the first time. The rear went much easier this morning after the refresher last night and the wheels go back to the shop this morning for truing and tires. Hopefully this saves me a little bit on the labor.
The cam IS pretty bad, but aside from the tach gear damage my biggest concerns are for the bearing surfaces. Getting those cleaned up to usable state will take enough material off them that they will be undersized for the stock bearing covers, much like my exhaust cam was that required the bronze bushing in the bearing cover. MegaCycle can install Torrington sleeves to fit the stock cam bearings with proper clearance, but of course it's also more money on top of the refurbishing price.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
If I choose to go with a Megacycle cam, would the bearing covers require any modification?
No, as long as the ones you plan to use are within spec the fit is correct. In their defense again, they have been doing it as long as anyone (I bought 450 cams from them in '73 right off the shelf, exchange, for about $100 IIRC) so they know the proper tolerances.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I have two covers for each side of the head, but only one of the four covers is any good. The left/points cover from motor #1 was good enough that I had it vapor blasted last fall (first picture below). The right/tach cover on motor #1 has external damage where the tach cable goes in. The right/tach cover from motor #2 (second picture) shows the same heat-related damage that was everywhere on the cams and followers, in addition to the left/points cover for that motor.
Man, someone rode that bike until it nearly seized, that's just ugly. Obviously the points side is the most critical for proper clearance due to the points being located there, any significant deviations from the cam turning a perfect circle will affect the dwell and timing. I just checked the part number for the right bearing cover and they are scarce, though I didn't look for a complete used head. DSS doesn't have one either and NOS will be over $100 if CMSNL has one (Edit, they don't), Partzilla doesn't. Found this one on eBay but no picture of the most important view, you'd have to ask them but the price is right
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175626470316
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175626470316
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks, Tom. I actually ordered a tach cover from eBay a short while ago. It had 10+ pictures, but this is the best one of the bearing surface. Compared to what I have it looks like it's never been used, or at least it's never been used by the person who used mine!
I looked at the one you selected also and they were about the same price.