1977 CB200

RobMan said:
Great repair on the center stand! BTW @Othen I have been meaning to ask, from looking at your avatar are you one of those crazy people that jump out of perfectly good airplanes?
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Many thanks, I‘m pleased with that little repair.

The parachuting bit: yes, I did that in the military for too many years (but I’m retired now).

:cool:

Addendum: I always considered parachuting to be a much safer option than landing in a Royal Air Force aircraft.
 
I’m taking my time with the CB200 because I keep finding things that are incorrectly fitted or routed, aren’t fastened up or adjusted properly or have missing nuts, bolts or washers. I don‘t know much about the history of the motorcycle: the PO told me it had been a deep restoration, but it is looking more like it was reassembled by a blind man.

Today’s little issues to resolve were (in no particular order) the centre stand bump-stop, securing the side stand and routing the starter cable properly. The first two were just a case of assembling the parts with the right fasteners in the right order. The last one has needed a bit of guesswork. Previously the starter cable just looped around the side of the frame and was zip tied on. I think I have it routed correctly through this hole in the back of the cradle:

IMG_6326 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

… does that look right? It wasn’t obvious which path the cable should follow from there to the solenoid - this seemed like a reasonable route:

IMG_6327 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

Once the engine is re-fitted it looks like it should run via this cable guide on the bottom of the crankcase:

IMG_6328 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

… would that be correct (I can’t think of anything else that the guide might be for)?

I think the CB200 has the potential to be a nice motorcycle once I’ve worked my way through everything, someone has obviously spent a lot of money on new parts at some point in its history. It probably just needs putting together properly.

Alan


:cool:
 
I’ve been unwell for a few days (I probably poisoned myself with some out of date or undercooked food - these things happen) so progress was somewhat delayed on the CB200, but I got back to it this morning. Everything came apart really easily (unsurprisingly- it has only run a few minutes since I rebuilt the top end a year or so ago). I found the source of the rattling noise as soon as I got the head off and could see the spring loaded cam chain adjuster. The chain has obviously been rubbing across the inside face of the rod, the metal bit that holds the rubber tip:

IMG_6341 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

… now, I can’t see anything wrongly fitted, and the rest of the adjuster mechanism looks to be in good order:

IMG_6342 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

So this is where I need your advice and expertise chaps: would I be right in concluding this has happened because the chain is worn out of tolerance, so the adjuster can’t take up all the slack, hence it is being allowed to rub on that inside face?

IMG_6343 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

I‘d really appreciate some advice on whether my diagnosis is correct: that the cam chain is worn out - I’ll leave work on this for a day or two and give it some thought.

If a slack cam chain is the problem then I have 2 options:

a. Strip the bottom end, remove the crank and fit a new continuous chain, as per the original.

b. Split the chain and fit a new one for a CD175 with a soft link like this one:

Soft link

I‘d appreciate comments of these ideas as well - what do people normally do in these circumstances?

Many thanks,

Alan

PS: this was the rattle from a video I took a year or so ago:

… a bit noisy!
 
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I think that it has to be a worn cam chain, it would be difficult to not route the chain correctly through the tensioner mechanism. Certainly, the CB200 engine that I took to pieces here showed that wear in the cam chain tunnel.

Personally, I'd use the rivet link method rather than the endless chain. I have built up both the CB200 and CD175 engines using the endless chain, and found it a right faff, what with having to unbolt the cam sprocket and all that malarkey.

Starter cable routed nicely, it does use that clip under the crankcase, there is also another clip just below the starter motor.

( Jumping out of airplanes. Many years ago, I did a couple of static line drops from a light air craft, never progressed to free fall, pulling my own rip cord. This was at Shobdon airfield, near to Hereford. The chief instructor and pilot was allegedly ex SAS, chap named McCartney. He gave me a clip round the head and called me a D***head, for not paying attention during his briefing. However, military style training paid off, when it came to the actual jump I just automatically followed orders, no hesitation. Engine cut, out onto the step, let go, count 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, look up, check canopy, then attempt to steer in rough direction of LZ. )
 
Many thanks - although I have the cam sprocket off already of course - it will be a great deal easier to pull a new chain through and rejoin it than split the crankcase. The risk of collateral damage to something else in the bottom end on a 50 year old motor may also be significant.

I‘ll order a new chain and the soft link from DS tomorrow. I could even fit the camshaft then install the cam chain at the end?

Thank you also for the advice on the starter cable- it will be much better when properly fitted.

Alan :cool:
 
Othen said:
I could even fit the camshaft then install the cam chain at the end?
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Exactly, makes life so much easier. Only issue I've had in the past is ensuring that the cam chain is correctly engaged with the crankshaft sprocket, easy for it to slip either side, then cause a lot of head scratching trying to get the two loose ends to meet on the cam sprocket.
 
Richard Pitman said:
Exactly, makes life so much easier. Only issue I've had in the past is ensuring that the cam chain is correctly engaged with the crankshaft sprocket, easy for it to slip either side, then cause a lot of head scratching trying to get the two loose ends to meet on the cam sprocket.
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I was thinking I could temporarily join the old and new chains end to end, then use the old one to pull it through. Perhaps check it with an endoscope as well?

Alan :cool:
 
I’ve ordered a new chain, a soft link and some gaskets from DS, so that is the way we’ll proceed. I’ll have a look down into the crankcase with my endoscope some time in the next few days, just to see that everything looks on order.

Alan :cool:
 
Othen said:
I’ve ordered a new chain, a soft link and some gaskets from DS, so that is the way we’ll proceed. I’ll have a look down into the crankcase with my endoscope some time in the next few days, just to see that everything looks on order.

Alan :cool:
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It should work fine, just pull the new one through with the old one. Just make sure no valves are open as you rotate the crankshaft so you don't complicate matters with a bent valve, LOL
 
The replacement chain arrived from DS this morning. I was slightly surprised to find that it is not continuous, but comes with a link - however that is slightly more convenient.
The new chain is 86 links (including the link) - does anyone know whether the original was 86 links - or might I have to trim it (to save me having to count the old chain’s links)?
Alan :cool:

Addendum: Google AI tells me the correct length is 86 links, so that should be fine. I’m thinking it may be convenient to check the assembly using the spring link, and once I’m happy everything is in order replace it with the soft link. I have a riveting tool I use for my larger drive chains, will that work or will I need to get a smaller one for 219 chain?
 
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ancientdad said:
This from Partzilla confirms it. Partzilla's listings show bolt sizes and lengths in mm, and they show chain lengths by number of links - handy to remember when you're not sure.

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Many thanks, I thought it was right but it is good to have it confirmed.

To answer my own question in the addendum above: it looks like my chain riveter will just about fit the 219 chain, but I may have to replace the pin anvil with a plain bolt to make sure it doesn’t push through.

:cool:
 
Othen said:
Many thanks, I thought it was right but it is good to have it confirmed.

To answer my own question in the addendum above: it looks like my chain riveter will just about fit the 219 chain, but I may have to replace the pin anvil with a plain bolt to make sure it doesn’t push through.

:cool:
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Make sure the supplied link is a soft link and not a press-on side plate style, I don't trust the latter myself.
 
Rivet type link at top, press on one below. The rivet link is fool proof, the stepped end means that the side plate cannot be pressed on over tight. And I found the press on link impossible to fit, and I would not have trusted it in any case.

1774597811029.png
 
I did a little more work on the CB200 cam chain job today - pulled the barrels off so I could have a shooftie at the tensioner, and have a check in the crankcase with an endoscope. The bottom end and the tensioner seem fine.

i had a look at the old cam chain whilst working out where to break it, and found what had gone wrong straight away:

IMG_6368 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

… you may see the riveted soft link on the middle of the photo that was so loose I pulled it apart by leavening it with a small screwdriver - I didn’t even need to use my chain tool. I would not have thought that was Mr Honda’s work, so whomever replaced the chain previously just didn’t rivet it properly. That led to excessive play and that rattling sound as it lashed against the heel of the tensioner.

At least that made it a tiny bit easier to take apart. I’ve pulled the new chain through and used the spring link for the time being to hold it together. I’ll build up the top end, then rivet it whilst on the cam sprocket as Richard shows above.

Enough for today.

Alan :cool:

Addendum: this little motorcycle has been nothing but trouble from the outset - but I’m hoping there is light at the end of the tunnel now.
 
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Richard Pitman said:
Good grief. A chimp with a toffee hammer ??
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Anything is possible, of course - there's this from Tampa back in the '30s (guess soon we'll have to say "1930s"). Meanwhile, the chimp is smarter than the guy with the cigar behind him (who happens to be staring right into the camera).

1774980856891.png
 
ancientdad said:
there's this from Tampa back in the '30s
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On a mission to find out the explanation for guy at right's apparent cast shadow. Hi res :
A+Monkey+Working+The+Pump+At+Boyd%27s+Service+Station.jpg
 
NeverEverJamToday said:
On a mission to find out the explanation for guy at right's apparent cast shadow. Hi res :
A+Monkey+Working+The+Pump+At+Boyd%27s+Service+Station.jpg
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Monument sign by the street. Every Sunoco station has them. Same round sign on top of the pump above a placard of services offered. The height and angle cause the shadow to cast as an oval.

This particular one also had a free zoo.
 
EzPete said:
Monument sign by the street. Every Sunoco station has them. Same round sign on top of the pump above a placard of services offered. The height and angle cause the shadow to cast as an oval.

This particular one also had a free zoo.
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That would be my guess too, though I didn't notice the shadow initially. Good catch, and it does look a bit alien. I know right where that corner is, but it's nothing like that today of course.

Pardon the mini-detour, @Othen. Back to your thread still in progress.
 
Well, the CB200 is back together after its new cam chain, and it does start and run, as you may see in this video:

IMG_6454 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

There is still something a bit noisy - although I wonder whether that is all the new parts (barrels, pistons, rings, cam chain… ) bedding in together? I’ll take the carburettors off and put them in the ultrasonic cleaner tonight, that may well improve its running a bit.

This little motorcycle has fought me back at every juncture, I’m starting to wonder whether it has just been messed with too much over the past 50 years and I’d be better off getting another one and using this as a source of good parts? I‘ll probably feel better about it once it is run in.

Alan :cool:
 
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Othen said:
Well, the CB200 is back together after its new cam chain, and it does start and run, as you may see in this video:

IMG_6454 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

There is still something a bit noisy - although I wonder whether that is all the new parts (barrels, pistons, rings, cam chain… ) bedding in together? I’ll take the carburettors off and put them in the ultrasonic cleaner tonight, that may well improve its running a bit.

This little motorcycle has fought me back at every juncture, I’m starting to wonder whether it has just been messed with too much over the past 50 years and I’d be better off getting another one and using this as a source of good parts? I‘ll probably feel better about it once it is run in.

Alan :cool:
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Congrats on getting it back together and running again. Post a video of it idling if you're able, let's see what the engine sounds like.
 
Othen said:
See if this works:
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It does, but from what I could hear over your voice it doesn't sound like cam chain, though I can't be sure because of the camera movement and spoken words. Holding the camera right next to the engine for a bit on each side might help.
 
Thank you for that. The cam chain is fixed, maybe my expectations are just a little too high for a 50 year old air cooled engine? This motor also needs some running in, and a bit of timing and carburettor adjustment.

Alan
 
I was feeling a bit negative about the CB200 earlier today because it didn’t just run like a sewing machine on first start up after being apart - that was a bit unrealistic of me - I’m more positive about it now and will just work through its little issues.

I changed the two fuel lines this afternoon- much better now. I took the filter bowl off the fuel tap and it was almost full of sediment, so I think the fuel system just needs a good chean. I know, I should have done that after leaving the motorcycle to stand for a year.

One problem I found today is the kick starter - which just fouls on the shiny new silencers (mufflers) half way through its stroke.

IMG_6457.jpeg

Now, I could either just ignore it and use the electric boot (okay, but it would irritate me), or I could fix the clearance issue somehow. I suppose the easiest way would be to (carefully and neatly) tap an indentation into the silencer with a hammer and dolly. Any ideas?

One baby step forward: I swapped the tachometer for the correct coloured face one that came in the spares box, this was dead easy and had the added bonus that the needle doesn’t jump around all over the place when the motor is running. I have no idea why the previous tachometer was changed out for one with the wrong coloured face.

IMG_0613.jpeg

I‘m over my melancholy mood now; I’ll get the carburettors off and into the ultrasonic parts washer tomorrow, plus pull off the petcock and get that cleaned out as well. The motorcycle should run a bit more evenly once I’ve done that so I’ll set the timing properly with a strobe.

I had an idea: I could use my CO exhaust gas analyser to adjust the carburettors.

Another day, another dollar.

Alan :cool:
 
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Over the years I've re-shaped many kickstart arms by clamping them in a big vice and using pipe for leverage. That old Japanese steel can be pretty easily bent.
 
I had been looking forward to test riding the CB200 this afternoon - but that little Honda seems to be determined to stop me!

It seemed to be sensible to check the fuel system right through after finding the petcock filter bowl full of sediment, so I emptied out the remaining fuel (about half a gallon) to find it a gloopy mess with lots of rusty flakes suspended. I took off the petcock and let the garden hose run through it for half an hour, by which time it was running clear. From looking in the filler cap doesn’t look too bad, but I think I’d better get some rust treatment and perhaps an epoxy resin liner. Having come this far I might as well do it properly.

Next I stripped down the carburettors and put them in the ultrasonic washer for half an hour at 60c. They came up pretty well so I cleaned the jets and reassembled on the kitchen table before trying to put them back on the motorcycle, then I noticed this:

IMG_6461.jpeg
… the 2 into 1 part of the throttle cable has failed, so one of the slides doesn’t lift! That bike seems to throw up another issue every time I think there is light at the end of the tunnel! So, I‘ve ordered a new cable direct from Bowden Cable City, China (pop. 2 million and the largest manufacturer of Bowden cables in the world) for less than £10 but it won’t be here for about a week. If I get bored in the meantime I may have a go at dismantling the cable, manufacturing a new plastic slider to connect the 3 cables, and sealing it up again with a sleeve and some glue. We’ll see.

So near, but so far... :cool:
 
ericfreeman said:
Over the years I've re-shaped many kickstart arms by clamping them in a big vice and using pipe for leverage. That old Japanese steel can be pretty easily bent.
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Baby steps forward in sorting out this troublesome CB200. I’ve solved the exhaust clearance issue: I bought this Chinese Woostar folding lever from Amazon for £16 (about $20) and it fits like a glove:

IMG_6480 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

… it is the 13mm spindle size.

IMG_6481 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

The clearance to the right hand silencer (muffler) is fine now, and I think it suits the motorcycle well - plus the lever doesn’t dig into my calf now.

How cool is that!

:cool:
 
I’d been trying to own less motorcycles, and had even sold my Gold Wing a month or so ago, but today I noticed this CB360 that seemed to be calling out my name on eBay:

Image by Alan Othen, on Flickr

… I didn’t even know I was looking for a CB360 this morning, and now I own a second vintage Honda twin. The motorcycle is in Whitby, on the Yorkshire coast. It is only about 120 miles, but that will take 3 hours each way (we are talking rural Lincolnshire and Yorkshire roads, plus crossing the River Humber). I’ll make a road trip of it on Friday with Bob (the dog) and my neighbour Nev (TR7 owner).

More to follow - new (to me) bikes are so exciting!

:cool:
 
Is there somewhere I could download a factory workshop manual for the CB360?

Alan :cool:
 
Wonderful! Thank you - I’d simultaneously found a similar (but not quite the same) version on these pages. You are right though - I should have known where to find that :cool:
 
Othen said:
I had been looking forward to test riding the CB200 this afternoon - but that little Honda seems to be determined to stop me!

It seemed to be sensible to check the fuel system right through after finding the petcock filter bowl full of sediment, so I emptied out the remaining fuel (about half a gallon) to find it a gloopy mess with lots of rusty flakes suspended. I took off the petcock and let the garden hose run through it for half an hour, by which time it was running clear. From looking in the filler cap doesn’t look too bad, but I think I’d better get some rust treatment and perhaps an epoxy resin liner. Having come this far I might as well do it properly.

Next I stripped down the carburettors and put them in the ultrasonic washer for half an hour at 60c. They came up pretty well so I cleaned the jets and reassembled on the kitchen table before trying to put them back on the motorcycle, then I noticed this:


… the 2 into 1 part of the throttle cable has failed, so one of the slides doesn’t lift! That bike seems to throw up another issue every time I think there is light at the end of the tunnel! So, I‘ve ordered a new cable direct from Bowden Cable City, China (pop. 2 million and the largest manufacturer of Bowden cables in the world) for less than £10 but it won’t be here for about a week. If I get bored in the meantime I may have a go at dismantling the cable, manufacturing a new plastic slider to connect the 3 cables, and sealing it up again with a sleeve and some glue. We’ll see.

So near, but so far... :cool:
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Sounds like my bike, I get somewhere then there's another set back, just have to be more determined than the bike!

I've been eying some 350s and 360s that are in running condition to ride while I keep restoring my 200, but I try to tell myself I have enough projects to work on as it is.
 
sp00xe said:
Sounds like my bike, I get somewhere then there's another set back, just have to be more determined than the bike!

I've been eying some 350s and 360s that are in running condition to ride while I keep restoring my 200, but I try to tell myself I have enough projects to work on as it is.
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We have the same life! I’ve just bought a CB360 for the same reason (and it is also playing up a bit!). I also have lots of projects.

:cool:
 
Things have been quiet with the CB200 project. The new throttle cable arrived and was quick and easy to fit, I rigged up a fuel supply - but the starter motor has suddenly become rather weak. The solenoid is working fine and producing 12v at the starter terminal, but the motor is either not spinning or running slowly.

This bike is proving to be a bit of a lemon, just when I think I have it beaten it bites me back. As a result I’ve decided to take a more measured approach to this project, and try to finish the CB360 faster. There are quite a few things that need sorting: the handlebar wiring needs to be routed internally (it is irritating me, so I’ll get that done now), the starter motor and carburettors need to be rebuilt (I’ve ordered a kit for each - arriving in a couple of weeks), the tank needs cleaning, de-rusting and lining (working on that now).

I‘m still determined to finish this project, but it would be better to do a better job and take a bit longer over it.

Alan :cool:
 
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Another of the CB200’s little issues has been ticked off. Readers may recall I found lots of sediment, including some rusty flakes, inside the petcock bowl. I took a step backwards and ordered a tank reconditioning kit.

The 3 day process to install it has just been completed. On day one I used the chemical cleaner, and dried it overnight (fortunately we had a nice, warm week), day two was the rust converter - again followed by drying overnight. I’d removed the petcock and made up a seal using a bolt into the petcock fastener, a steel plate and some thick vinyl. Yesterday I mixed the 2 part epoxy liner and spent half an hour in the spring sunshine making sure it had got into every part of the interior. I’ve just had a look at it after 24 hours drying and I’m pleased with the result: a hard and uniform plastic liner that should last the rest of the life of the motorcycle:

IMG_6571 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

Now it needs a further 7 days to cure. I’m hoping that by then the carburettor and starter rebuild kits will have arrived. In the meantime I’ll re-route the control wiring through the handlebars as it should be.

It would be nice to get this little motorcycle finished by the end of the summer (… but I think I said that last year!).

Alan :)
 
Having got the CB360 ‘done’ (at least for the time being, my attention swung back to the CB200 today - in particular the starter motor, which had become unusable. The bike had been in a slightly stripped down state whilst I fixed a few things that needed doing after changing the cam belt, so access was good.

The left side engine cover didn’t have a gasket fitted! The starter came off and apart pretty easily, I’d bought a refurbishment kit (from the Orient for less than a tenner I think) some time ago. The brushes were in a sorry state and the commutator needed a really good clean with IPA and fine wire wool.

IMG_6652 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

… the new ones are very smart indeed! I cleaned, fitted all the replacement parts I could locate in the kit, and reassembled with plenty of lithium grease.

IMG_6653 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

I‘ve checked the starter spins on the button, pulled off the rotor for a shooftie at the starter clutch (the JIS screws are fine, still in their stake marks, so I left them alone) and put the cover back on (with a gasket this time).

I‘ll put the motorcycle back together after Bob and I walk on the beach - fingers crossed It will start and run, everything will be sweetness and light!

:cool:
 
I’ve been a bit guilty of ignoring the CB200 since I bought the CB360 about 3 weeks ago. It has been a frustrating project that I’d thought I was close to finishing several times, but it has been a lemon throughout so I haven't minded excuses not to work on it. Today I made huge progress though, first restoring the starter motor - a job that has needed doing since I bought the motorcycle, then reassembling the last few bits and getting it going.

I‘m pleased to report that the starter works fine now - that was quite a satisfying job. Whilst the motor was apart to change the cam chain I’d done lots of other jobs that needed fixing: clean the carburettors, change the condenser and plugs, fix some broken wires in the ignition system… lots of others. So, this afternoon I replaced the gear lever, sprocket cover, foot pegs, tank, side panels… loads of bits and pieces I’d taken off months ago, and I’m pleased to say the motor started straight away, and doesn’t sound too bad, as you may notice in this video:

IMG_6654 by Alan Othen, on Flickr

After a very little fettling it is ticking over fairly well. I rode it round our local residential roads half a dozen times (perhaps 2 or 3 miles, I’m guessing as far as it has been in decades)… the clutch, brakes and all the gears work. The engine could do with a bit of fettling - I can check the timing with a strobe now it is ticking over, and the fueling isn't quite right, but it is certainly running and riding now, so today has been a really satisfying day’s work.

I still have to route the switch cables through the handlebars, tidy up a few scruffy bits I’d wiring and I think I’ll rebuild the carburettors as I have the kits here and they are very easy to access. For the first time since I bought this little Honda I’m happy that I’m very nearly there - it has been a lemon, but it is a pretty bike and perhaps it is not so bad after all.

Alan :)
 
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