Combo Regulator Rectifier

It's a major improvement over stock rectifier.
Regulator may not be needed on many older bikes if stock size battery is used as smaller bikes were designed to 'load balance' over 3,000rpm with battery absorbing extra current (and why battery needed 'topping up with distilled water every now and again)
It may help with battery life but doubtful voltage is controlled well enough for a small lithium battery to be used without extra regulation (many now have regulators built in to prevent over charge and over discharge)
Saying that, I still won't be using L-Ion battery in any of my bikes few freinds have tried it and had batteries either blow up or catch fire - $200+ 'failed experiment'
 
crazypj said:
Saying that, I still won't be using L-Ion battery in any of my bikes few freinds have tried it and had batteries either blow up or catch fire - $200+ 'failed experiment'
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I've been using a 4 amp lithium ion battery in my 450 for 7 years now with zero issues (still the same battery). The bike had an Oregon Cycle rec/reg combo unit already on it when I bought it, still using it and have never seen the system above 14.5 volts
 
The only reason i'm doing it is it struggles to start unless the battery is fully charged and these darker days mean the lights are on all the time.
So there's no reason this shouldn't work as they say. No need to alter any other wiring?
 
Shouldn't need to alter anything.
You could learn to kickstart it as well as that will 'save' battery if it's a little low.
Fault most people make is 'stabbing' at kickstart instead of pushing through an arc, when you get it right it's surprisingly easy (I used to hand start them, and CB750 but that was in late 70's when I worked in Bridgend)
Swapping some bulbs for LED also helps a little, even just buying a pack of instrument bulbs will help. (the cheap Chinese ones seem to work fine in my experience (I'm Welsh and always broke)
Check all connections and fuse holders are clean.
Being a British model you can turn lights off before attempting start, I'm sure you know not to touch throttle when choke is on.
Let it run a little before switching lights on, battery only has 'surface charge' until it's been charging 10 miles or so over 3,000rpm.
I don't envy you riding in London (even though I haven't been there for ten years)
 
crazypj said:
Shouldn't need to alter anything.
You could learn to kickstart it as well as that will 'save' battery if it's a little low.
Fault most people make is 'stabbing' at kickstart instead of pushing through an arc, when you get it right it's surprisingly easy (I used to hand start them, and CB750 but that was in late 70's when I worked in Bridgend)
Swapping some bulbs for LED also helps a little, even just buying a pack of instrument bulbs will help. (the cheap Chinese ones seem to work fine in my experience (I'm Welsh and always broke)
Check all connections and fuse holders are clean.
Being a British model you can turn lights off before attempting start, I'm sure you know not to touch throttle when choke is on.
Let it run a little before switching lights on, battery only has 'surface charge' until it's been charging 10 miles or so over 3,000rpm.
I don't envy you riding in London (even though I haven't been there for ten years)
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It seems to like a little throttle and choke to start on the starter motor, then half choke for about 30 seconds. Then choke off.
I'll practice my kicks!
 
paula said:
When you fit that unit what do you do with the old
voltage regulator?
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Remove it, or at the very least disconnect it from the system. All wires black in color on Hondas of that era are switched 12v, meaning when the key is on they are live. There will be one connection to the original regulator that is connected to a black wire in the main harness to monitor battery voltage when the bike is running. Typically Honda used female connectors on main harness ends that are black so if/when disconnected they don't short on anything.
 
paula said:
will it work just as they say?
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For the cb200/cb200t/cl200 (assuming that's what you are asking about) , unless the enclosure of the new rec/reg is a path to ground from the internals, it will not work as stated out of the box. Same as Sparckmoto . Removing the original rectifier removes the only path to ground for charging.
A dedicated ground wire must be added, which has been recommended here as good practice in general anyway.

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NeverEverJamToday said:
For the cb200/cb200t/cl200 (assuming that's what you are asking about) , unless the enclosure of the new rec/reg is a path to ground from the internals, it will not work as stated out of the box. Same as Sparckmoto . Removing the original rectifier removes the only path to ground for charging.
A dedicated ground wire must be added, which has been recommended here as good practice in general anyway.

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Excellent info. Thank you
I will make sure it's very grounded,
 
paula said:
Excellent info. Thank you
I will make sure it's very grounded,
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Verify and or clean the engine to ground connection too. I even run an extra ground from headlight to ground or battery negative because I've fried a couple of rectifiers on these old bikes with minimal grounds. Definitely clean the paint or powder off that rectifier case mounting to ground it.
 
Coming late to this thread. The voltage regulator has, from memory, three wires, black - live, green - earth ( ground ) and yellow, from the charging circuit. When the VR is removed, blank off the yellow wire. Essential to connect the green wire to a good earth ( frame ) connection. The black wire can also be blanked off, unless your new reg rec is the five wire type, in which case you can connect that black wire to the (black) voltage sense wire on the reg rec.

I assume that you know about the yellow to white wire connection modification ? As stock, the white wire ( from the generator ) is connected to the yellow wire when the lighting switch is in the 'On' position, activates extra charging coils in the generator. This is because with the old rectifier and wet lead acid batteries it would overcharge and probably boil the battery if this connection was made without the load from the headlamp. With the modern reg rec and an AGM battery this is not an issue, and it's good to have the battery charging at the full rate, lights on or off.
 
Richard Pitman said:
Coming late to this thread. The voltage regulator has, from memory, three wires, black - live, green - earth ( ground ) and yellow, from the charging circuit. When the VR is removed, blank off the yellow wire. Essential to connect the green wire to a good earth ( frame ) connection. The black wire can also be blanked off, unless your new reg rec is the five wire type, in which case you can connect that black wire to the (black) voltage sense wire on the reg rec.

I assume that you know about the yellow to white wire connection modification ? As stock, the white wire ( from the generator ) is connected to the yellow wire when the lighting switch is in the 'On' position, activates extra charging coils in the generator. This is because with the old rectifier and wet lead acid batteries it would overcharge and probably boil the battery if this connection was made without the load from the headlamp. With the modern reg rec and an AGM battery this is not an issue, and it's good to have the battery charging at the full rate, lights on or off.
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Good info. I'll have a good look and take pictures when it arrives. That all makes sense though
 
Richard Pitman said:
Coming late to this thread. The voltage regulator has, from memory, three wires, black - live, green - earth ( ground ) and yellow, from the charging circuit. When the VR is removed, blank off the yellow wire. Essential to connect the green wire to a good earth ( frame ) connection. The black wire can also be blanked off, unless your new reg rec is the five wire type, in which case you can connect that black wire to the (black) voltage sense wire on the reg rec.

I assume that you know about the yellow to white wire connection modification ? As stock, the white wire ( from the generator ) is connected to the yellow wire when the lighting switch is in the 'On' position, activates extra charging coils in the generator. This is because with the old rectifier and wet lead acid batteries it would overcharge and probably boil the battery if this connection was made without the load from the headlamp. With the modern reg rec and an AGM battery this is not an issue, and it's good to have the battery charging at the full rate, lights on or off.
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Ok. I had a go today.
I did the Yellow to White modification. That didn't give me any issues.
I then fitted the new Regulator/Rectifier by just plugging it in and bolting it to the frame. I did clean up the area so i had a good ground.
I then ran the bike and everything seemed ok. The volts measured at the battery were about 13.5v and didn't move from there. The battery was at about that voltage too, so i wasn't sure if it was charging.
I then removed the old regulator and it all went wrong. The lights were dim and flickering with the engine and the indicators wouldn't even flash.
I'm thinking i should have done what you said and connected the old green wire to ground.
I'll have another try
 
I wish i'd come back and re read all your comments!
 
As expected earthing the Green wire that was used to connect to the old Regulator worked perfectly.
Even though i got a reply from the supplier reiterating that it was not necessary to do anything but plug the unit in.
Feeling just a little bit smarter now. :ROFLMAO:
 
paula said:
As expected earthing the Green wire that was used to connect to the old Regulator worked perfectly.
Even though i got a reply from the supplier reiterating that it was not necessary to do anything but plug the unit in.
Feeling just a little bit smarter now. :ROFLMAO:
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So, Rex's Speed Shop said it wasn't necessary? Interesting response from them considering their good reputation on other Honda electrics.
 
ancientdad said:
So, Rex's Speed Shop said it wasn't necessary? Interesting response from them considering their good reputation on other Honda electrics.
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They were very good with their customer service. Could it be that a CB200T is different?
 
paula said:
They were very good with their customer service. Could it be that a CB200T is different?
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No, the ground is required for all rec/reg combo units, even on earlier bikes that didn't come with a factory regulator.
 
I think the point is that the new reg / rec worked fine until the regulator was removed, so from that perspective the vendor was correct. I had exactly the same situation when I removed the voltage regulator from my CL175K7, things ceased to work correctly until I connected the green wire, that had previously been connected to the voltage regulator, to a good ground connection on the frame.

Personally, I've found the cheap imported reg/recs found on Ebay for less than a tenner to work perfectly well.
 
For reference, I used Sonreir's Regulator rectifier (Sparck Moto). Sonreir did a lot of testing (I assisted in some of it) to make sure the quality control was good. As you can see, Despite being mounted on metal, I ran a separate ground wire. In testing, a consistent, good ground gave consistent results. On Honda's, the green wire is ground. Make sure your battery ground wire has a good clean connection too. Many electrical issues are often due to weak electrical connections. Track all the charging wires and clean or replace every connector in the wire harness related to charging. You will be surprised how much this helps.

RR Mounted on Toolbox.jpg
 
Mydlyfkryzis said:
For reference, I used Sonreir's Regulator rectifier (Sparck Moto). Sonreir did a lot of testing (I assisted in some of it) to make sure the quality control was good. As you can see, Despite being mounted on metal, I ran a separate ground wire. In testing, a consistent, good ground gave consistent results. On Honda's, the green wire is ground. Make sure your battery ground wire has a good clean connection too. Many electrical issues are often due to weak electrical connections. Track all the charging wires and clean or replace every connector in the wire harness related to charging. You will be surprised how much this helps.

View attachment 29651
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This unit doesn't need to be grounded. It works fine hanging in the breeze. But you do need to ground the old green wire from the original regulator.
No idea why.
 
paula said:
This unit doesn't need to be grounded. It works fine hanging in the breeze. But you do need to ground the old green wire from the original regulator.
No idea why.
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Because that area of the harness is seeing ground through the old regulator. If that same wire was connected to a ring terminal and grounded to the same place the rec/reg unit is grounded, it would work fine and you could literally remove the now-unnecessary OEM regulator.
 
ancientdad said:
Because that area of the harness is seeing ground through the old regulator. If that same wire was connected to a ring terminal and grounded to the same place the rec/reg unit is grounded, it would work fine and you could literally remove the now-unnecessary OEM regulator.
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That's exactly what i did. :)
 
paula said:
This unit doesn't need to be grounded. It works fine hanging in the breeze. But you do need to ground the old green wire from the original regulator.
No idea why.
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That's fine. I post pics and clarifications for others. Even if it actually works, a solid ground does improve operation. These ld bikes connectors have gotten weak over the ages, corroded or oxidized. Sonreir runs Vintage connections now. I used them with the original proprietor and also Sonreir. Whenever I work on anything electrical on the bike, I put new connectors on. Charging system works better, lights are brighter, etc. Honda's are reliable, but I suspect Soichiro never expected his motorcycles to be running great over 50 years later. Good to see another bike still running...
 
Maybe not an issue with the pitiful output from the 175 / 200 generators, but on more powerful / modern systems, the heat sink needs to make good metal to metal contact with the frame, to get rid of excess energy as heat. Unlikely that there is electrical continuity between the heat sink and the green wire coming out of the new reg rec.
 
The regulator only had 4 wires. 2 Yellow - AC volts from alternator. Black (12V sense wire) usually to ignition switch, but can be battery +) and Red, 12V + output to battery. No Green Ground. Grounding the case made for more stable output.

In any case, whether the case or a green wire from the R/R, good, continuous grounds are important. Don;t rely on chassis ground. Honda didn't. That's why there are so many green wires.
 
The 175 / 200 voltage regulator has three wires. One yellow, from charging circuit, one black +ve, and a green (frame ground -ve) wire. In this instance, there must be continuity between this wire and the body of the voltage rectifier.

The original fit rectifier has pink and yellow wires supplying AC current from the alternator, rectified DC output via green -ve wire and red/white striped +ve wire to battery.

Aftermarket combined reg rec as above, in 4 wire form, red +ve rather than red/white stripe. 5 wire variant has a black voltage sense wire, connected to switched live. The spare black wire to the redundant voltage rectifier can be used for this.

I've found it best to connect the green and red wires from the new reg rec direct to the battery ( with a fuse in the red wire ).
 
Mydlyfkryzis said:
In any case, whether the case or a green wire from the R/R, good, continuous grounds are important. Don;t rely on chassis ground. Honda didn't. That's why there are so many green wires.
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I sort of agree. At least on my cb450 there was insufficient grounding from the instrument cluster and from the handlebars. The addition of ground wiring from them to the battery ground improved things a lot.
 
wentwest said:
I sort of agree. At least on my cb450 there was insufficient grounding from the instrument cluster and from the handlebars. The addition of ground wiring from them to the battery ground improved things a lot.
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As Jim always says, you can't have too many grounds.
 
wentwest said:
I sort of agree. At least on my cb450 there was insufficient grounding from the instrument cluster and from the handlebars. The addition of ground wiring from them to the battery ground improved things a lot.
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No argument about the requirement for good grounds. On the 175 and probably the 200, the only factory ground to the handlebar controls, specifically the horn and starter buttons, is via the clutch and brake cables, and through the greased head bearings. This is because the handle bars are rubber mounted. A simple length of green wire with a ring terminal at either end is the solution, connecting the bars to the main frame. I think Honda did this as stock on other models, no idea why the upright 175s missed out.

EDIT There is a route to ground through the headlight shell and headlight ears, ground wire from loom connects to captive nuts securing the headlight, but this route has to negotiate rubber mounts, corrosion, excessive powder coating and paint etc.
 
In case anyone should stumble across this thread and wonder what is being discussed, this is the original silicon rectifier from a CB/CL 175. The mounting stud is bolted to the frame and grounded at this point, as is the green wire from the unit. Removing this unit and replacing it with a modern combined regulator rectifier looses this ground connection. However, and this puzzles me, if the separate voltage regulator is retained, a ground connection is somehow found through this. If the VR is removed, a separate ground connection must be made ie green wire from loom contacted to clean bare metal on the bikes frame.

Red/White stripe and green wires are +ve and -ve 12v DC wires to battery. Pink and yellow wires are AC input from the stator. White wire from stator links to yellow wire for increased output when headlight switch is ON. However, with later modern reg rec, white and yellow wires can be permanently merged, regardless of headlight status.

oOES3ss.jpg
 
And this is the CB/CL 175 voltage regulator. As can be seen, it is rubber mounted, ie NOT grounded to frame. Neither is there continuity between the green wire and the body of the unit. So I'm puzzled how the system finds a ground through this unit. However, just checking with my meter, there is continuity between the green and black (+ve) wires, which doesn't make sense to me, unless this unit below is faulty.

RhWQEPh.jpg
 
And finally, this is the sort of cheap Ebay combined rectifier regulator that I'm using on all three of my 175s, also on the test rig in the shed. Wiring as the original unit, except there is no ground connection through the heat sink. Using the spare green wire from the redundant VR above solves that issue, although for reasons that I don't understand everything works fine if the VR is left plugged in. Remove it, and you need to run a separate ground, as Paula has described earlier.

regrec.JPG
 
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