Air filters....Think "still air volume" and "laminar flow".......
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CB160 Blue on White maybe
- Thread starter ballbearian
- Start date
ballbearian
Veteran Member
The PO had it running with those little cupcake pods, so I thought I'd try them, for now, as a point of departure. I need to replace the filter media on the OEM units. I'm thinking there must be more reasons for this bad behavior.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I took off the cupcake air filters and started it again. Much better.
It still wasn't getting warm on the right side. No spark. I applied the KISS principal (keep it simple stupid), and found I have an actual bad D8HA plug.
I stuck in a pair of D8HS that I had since the resistor caps are still on it.
Next up, fix the intermittent starter clutch and re wrap the OEM filters with UNI foam.
It still wasn't getting warm on the right side. No spark. I applied the KISS principal (keep it simple stupid), and found I have an actual bad D8HA plug.
I stuck in a pair of D8HS that I had since the resistor caps are still on it.
Next up, fix the intermittent starter clutch and re wrap the OEM filters with UNI foam.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
The starter clutch is pretty bad, almost looks like a used part that shoulda been passed over. Pitted rollers, pitted sprocket surface and worn through spring caps. Surprising that the springs were decent looking, probably someones attempt to get it functional. I was trying to use it to do a compression check and any load would cause it slip and just spin.
On the left is the 160 clutch
In the center is a spare 305 clutch. The springs from it are as tiny as peach fuzz, supposedly all the same part numbers. As you can see the rollers are 2mm longer, so won't fit. The caps are the same though.
On the right is a CA95 150 clutch. All the same but it's sprocket won't work on the 160.
Waiting on ebay to bring me a decent clutch and sprocket. $30 some wasn't too bad.
It's weird how the press fit cover/side plate slips on the cast clutch body and blocks easy screw removal. Those screws got pretty ugly, but I think one could replace springs, caps and rollers without removal.
This all could be a sign there are other engine surprises.
On the left is the 160 clutch
In the center is a spare 305 clutch. The springs from it are as tiny as peach fuzz, supposedly all the same part numbers. As you can see the rollers are 2mm longer, so won't fit. The caps are the same though.
On the right is a CA95 150 clutch. All the same but it's sprocket won't work on the 160.
Waiting on ebay to bring me a decent clutch and sprocket. $30 some wasn't too bad.
It's weird how the press fit cover/side plate slips on the cast clutch body and blocks easy screw removal. Those screws got pretty ugly, but I think one could replace springs, caps and rollers without removal.
This all could be a sign there are other engine surprises.
That cover slipped somehow during its recent life, those openings are supposed to be aligned with the screw holes. Never really understood why Honda put a sheet metal cover over the outer housing that wasn't somehow attached, I've seen them get loose enough to come off.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
The replacement ebay starter clutch and sprocket were good to go. I stretched the roller springs from 24mm to 29 to match the new set I had previously ordered and will save the new ones for Benlys or Dreams as they use the same ones.
Cold compression test gave 130 psi on the left and 140 on the right. Not great.
The backstory on the left side is that the PO had just replaced the left intake pipe because it was cracked or broken. The discolored exhaust bears witness to some heat, at some point. There was some fine aluminum in the oil pan but the centrifugal filter must have been cleaned out by the PO.
The timing was too advanced, due to the usual baggy advancer springs allowing the max to be about 10 degrees over. At least these springs are easy to crimp tighter. It now idles at 5-7 BTC and tops out at the max mark (whatever that is, 35?).
Left side smokes like a 60's dive bar.
Guess I'll just run it hard and see if it improves.
Cold compression test gave 130 psi on the left and 140 on the right. Not great.
The backstory on the left side is that the PO had just replaced the left intake pipe because it was cracked or broken. The discolored exhaust bears witness to some heat, at some point. There was some fine aluminum in the oil pan but the centrifugal filter must have been cleaned out by the PO.
The timing was too advanced, due to the usual baggy advancer springs allowing the max to be about 10 degrees over. At least these springs are easy to crimp tighter. It now idles at 5-7 BTC and tops out at the max mark (whatever that is, 35?).
Left side smokes like a 60's dive bar.
Guess I'll just run it hard and see if it improves.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Nice trick with the stretching of the roller springs. Did you check/set the valve clearances before testing the compression? I scanned through the thread and I don't see that mentioned, but could have missed it. I hope the smoke clears up one way or the other.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Yeah, the timing chain was just a bit loose and the valves were all right on. The PO had it up and running from it's long nap. I just don't remember it smoking that bad when I bought it.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
2 Questions here. Is this a Denso plate? I'm trying to figure which of three styles points to get. It has the adjusting cam (to left of points spring). Couldn't really get the gap down to spec, so maybe worn rubbing block. Would excess gap keep it from revving past 5K?
(Edit- old pic, the wire has been moved away from the cover edge)
Rebuilt the OEM air filters with Uni green foam and just used fat coffee bag ties to hold it on (those ties get used on wiring and cables a lot, reuseable).
So with proper filters, the second start and warm up, it would not hit 6K rpm. However, the warm compression went up to 138psi on the left and 145 on the right.
Still tons of white blue smoke.
Between the PO's intake leak and the smoke and the aluminum in the oil drain pan and this pic of an oily left plug (new, only 3/10 of an hour), I'm hoping there is no oil ring problem, or burnt piston issues.
Final question. What is the preferred plugs to use on these 160's?
(Edit- old pic, the wire has been moved away from the cover edge)
Rebuilt the OEM air filters with Uni green foam and just used fat coffee bag ties to hold it on (those ties get used on wiring and cables a lot, reuseable).
So with proper filters, the second start and warm up, it would not hit 6K rpm. However, the warm compression went up to 138psi on the left and 145 on the right.
Still tons of white blue smoke.
Between the PO's intake leak and the smoke and the aluminum in the oil drain pan and this pic of an oily left plug (new, only 3/10 of an hour), I'm hoping there is no oil ring problem, or burnt piston issues.
Final question. What is the preferred plugs to use on these 160's?
stl360+450
Veteran Member
12ozPBR shared a photo with branding symbols on a thread about dohc 450 points. It looks more like Hitachi to me, but I'm no expert.
It IS a Hitachi plate and Hitachi type points (eccentric adjuster screw)
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I put the baffle plates back in. It is slightly quieter. If the smoke doesn't raise eyebrows the noise would have.
Also the evidence of wear.
Also the evidence of wear.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I like the idea of removable baffles - is there room in there to add packing material? If so, is it appropriate for these pipes?
I also like that tread pattern - nice photo. Have you run it more?
I also like that tread pattern - nice photo. Have you run it more?
That looks like a Dunlop K70
ballbearian
Veteran Member
It's a Chinese copy, MMG from Powersports Depot. 2.75-18.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Yes, it's wide open inside. I've got the stainless potscrubbers on standby, due to the oil coming thru the left side, it might get soaked pretty quick.
Maybe put some miles on it before trying them in case the smoke clears up a bit (or more)
ballbearian
Veteran Member
No test ride. Clutch frozen good. Went to pull the plates and disks and found this in the centrifugal oil filter
Oh look, someone threw some glitter in my oil filter.
Oh look, someone threw some glitter in my oil filter.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That's not from the little bit that you've run the motor, is it?
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Yeah, with maybe a half hour run time after oil change and filter clean out. I guess I forgot to check the clutch before the oil change. I can see more education in my future so I'm stocking up on school supplies (another used engine on its way from ebay).
mike in idaho
Veteran Member
Looks like it was run for a while with a loose cam chain. Good thing that centrifugal oil filter did its job and caught the pieces.
Yeah, there's probably a nice groove in the front and/or rear of the cam chain tunnel, maybe even some widening too.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I had loosened the adjuster lock bolt but did not hear any movement. Hard to verify that adjuster wasn't stuck or that it functioned. Don't know if a dentist mirror can see cam sprocket from tappet holes. Given the glitter evidence in the oil, this may all be academic.
I'll fix the clutch plates because... and then decide to act upon the writing on the wall, i.e. drop motor, split cases or pop head, or both.
You could try loosening the tensioner lock bolt and then gently turning the engine backward a little bit to tension the intake run of the cam chain to try pushing the tensioner mechanism backwards a bit, then temporarily lock the tensioner bolt and gently rotate the crankshaft back and forth to check for more cam chain slack than before (visible by the cam and advancer sitting still with small movements). If you get more free movement than previously it would seem the tensioner isn't stuck.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Seems chain not routed through tensioner correctly. As soon as the top was off, I could see the floppy chain. The grooves weren't as bad as expected.
Pistons don't match. I wonder if there is even an oil ring on that left one (without the arrow). No ridge in top of bore and measures std 50mm. Looks like someone was in here not too long ago, fresher head gasket than expected and lack of carbon.
Need to pull jugs and check bores (they are shiny) and pistons
Pistons don't match. I wonder if there is even an oil ring on that left one (without the arrow). No ridge in top of bore and measures std 50mm. Looks like someone was in here not too long ago, fresher head gasket than expected and lack of carbon.
Need to pull jugs and check bores (they are shiny) and pistons
Well, then it's a good thing you pulled it apart. Someone didn't have or follow the manual... doesn't that cam chain have a clip-type master link? I see you broke the chain.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Yes and they did a crappy job of peening too. I just pried it apart with a screwdriver. I'll borrow the Benly one for the time being.
mike in idaho
Veteran Member
Be sure to pull the adjuster plunger out of the head and check for burrs on the flat side, from the PO overtightening the adjuster bolt.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
That would be a normal screwup, routing the chain so the tension wheel is in the middle and doesn't even touch the chain, shows talent. I'm amazed the chain didn't hop a tooth, but then it wouldn't even run.
I'm expecting the grand finale when I get the pistons out.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
It's good when it's not that bad. Right? I was expecting much worse.
The bores are both right at 50mm. These rings just don't look very worn, maybe they were replaced and just never got seated? Or maybe the profuse smoking is a head problem.
The bores are both right at 50mm. These rings just don't look very worn, maybe they were replaced and just never got seated? Or maybe the profuse smoking is a head problem.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
How do the bores look? I don't know these machines well. Am I correct to think these are standard [sized] pistons? And was the head gasket sealed to the bottom of the cylinder head with something?
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Looks good without deep scratching, should hone pretty well. As far as I can tell, all looks to be standard size.
Nothing on the head gasket as found. If I were to re-use it, I would try the recommendation, I got here, of copper spray and a tiny amount of RTV around the green Orings.
I would try to find a new head gasket for it. The crush rings for the combustion chamber are designed to be used only once, and despite the engine being a comparatively-low state of tune with respect to the other Honda engines of the day, it's still more of a high performance engine than say a Briggs and Stratton. I guess if you have to you could get away with it, but if it were mine I'd replace it if at all possible.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Ring gap question? My FSM isn't clear and Clymers's says .28-.76mm or .011-.03".
My version of a leakdown test for the valves was to loosen the adjusters and set the head on it's side and fill the ports with gas. They all held except the right intake and it held for more than an hour.
I really don't want to split the case just to muck out the bottom, so I'll fill with gas and slosh around a few times.
Then figure out the ring thing and get 'er honed.
My version of a leakdown test for the valves was to loosen the adjusters and set the head on it's side and fill the ports with gas. They all held except the right intake and it held for more than an hour.
I really don't want to split the case just to muck out the bottom, so I'll fill with gas and slosh around a few times.
Then figure out the ring thing and get 'er honed.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I got a new head gasket.
The ring gaps are all in the .30- .33mm zone, and that is near the upper travel area. I feel a cheap-skate flare up coming on.
I'll recheck piston clearance again after honing.
The ring gaps are all in the .30- .33mm zone, and that is near the upper travel area. I feel a cheap-skate flare up coming on.
I'll recheck piston clearance again after honing.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I'm in the clutches 
of installing this clutch pack.
Honda CB160 175 Special Racing Clutch - Italian Moto3 supplier NewFren F1675A | eBay
waiting on an extra offset steel plate.
of installing this clutch pack.Honda CB160 175 Special Racing Clutch - Italian Moto3 supplier NewFren F1675A | eBay
waiting on an extra offset steel plate.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
How much slack in the clutch stack?
The offset plate is used to gain room for the extra friction disc. Newfren clutch recommends modification to the clutch basket to allow room for adequate disc separation and expansion from heat.
I'm lengthening the slots in the basket by 1.5-2.0mm. Tedious, but filing and measuring will get me there accurately without setting up milling bits in my crossvice on the big drill press.
Newfren also recommends reducing the thickness of the stop flange on the clutch inner hub, by an additional 1.5mm, effectively lengthening the area for the stack of plates.
I'm not entirely sure that this is needed, especially with the substitution of one flat steel plate for the inverted offset plate.
Here is my question. What is generally the amount of free space, or slack, between plates and the pressure plate when the clutch is disengaged? I would think it would be at least 1.5mm.
The offset plate is used to gain room for the extra friction disc. Newfren clutch recommends modification to the clutch basket to allow room for adequate disc separation and expansion from heat.
I'm lengthening the slots in the basket by 1.5-2.0mm. Tedious, but filing and measuring will get me there accurately without setting up milling bits in my crossvice on the big drill press.
Newfren also recommends reducing the thickness of the stop flange on the clutch inner hub, by an additional 1.5mm, effectively lengthening the area for the stack of plates.
I'm not entirely sure that this is needed, especially with the substitution of one flat steel plate for the inverted offset plate.
Here is my question. What is generally the amount of free space, or slack, between plates and the pressure plate when the clutch is disengaged? I would think it would be at least 1.5mm.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I'm sorry I don't have an answer to your question, but I popped into the neighborhood (of this thread) and wanted to share my admiration for this clutch undertaking. It looks like delicate work. I followed the links to the eBay description and those guys from Italy look to know a few things about these bikes. Did I understand correctly that they're recommending the removal of that 1.5mm due to high temp expansion under racing conditions?
This clutch design uses a lifter rod, right? Would the travel of the rod provide a rough estimate of the free space when the clutch is disengaged?
I'm not sure I understood the meaning of "cheap skate flare up" in your earlier post. Would you mind elaborating?
This clutch design uses a lifter rod, right? Would the travel of the rod provide a rough estimate of the free space when the clutch is disengaged?
I'm not sure I understood the meaning of "cheap skate flare up" in your earlier post. Would you mind elaborating?
ballbearian
Veteran Member
First let me apologize for cryptic comments. My cheap out plan was to reuse pistons and even maybe rings as it appears that they were replaced but possibly never run in properly. That plan was unrealistic and not likely to be an acceptable outcome, even with new rings. After a good bit of additional honing there are still a few full length scratches. I have a new plan and will post on piston/cylinder action soon.
The Newfren clutch kit was recommended by my Oz friend (accomplished Benly man), Miles, for my Benly. Here I is using it as intended for the seized 160.
The kit basically adds another friction disc, so previous clearance for heat and drag must be recovered via slight modification.
It does use the same lifter as stock (same exact part on Benlys, 160s, 175s).
Since there is really no maximum disengagement stop or shoulder of any sort (other than the clutch lever hitting the hand grip), or any spec in a manual, the clearance amount is, seemingly, determined by mechanic's art.
Thanks for commenting.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I'm hoping to learn from these various cheapskate methods you sometimes inject in your projects, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything -- thanks for the explanation.
Did you choose to follow your friend's recommendation with this kit out of necessity, for the performance gains, or just because? All good reasons in my book.
Did you choose to follow your friend's recommendation with this kit out of necessity, for the performance gains, or just because? All good reasons in my book.
I have a number of new CB/CL OEM Honda head gaskets and base gaskets etc for the 305cc motors.
I would not reuse a head gasket on any build for the reasons Tom mentioned they are designed to be used once. That opinion and 10 cents used to get a cup of coffee. :biggrin:
Woops this is a CB160 not a 305. Can't keep up with all the bikes your working on these days. lol.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
It's time to admit failure as a cheap skate. I'm off to a new machinist with cylinders and new pistons. I'll post a follow up and elaborate more soon.
The clutch project includes all of the reasons. It began as a strategy to fix my chronic slipping CA95 Benly and then this 160 was stuck, so I'm going backwards; first this one then get to the Benly.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Progress on the 3 problems.
1. stuck clutch
2. floppy cam chain
3. pistons and cylinders
1. Added the extra 6th friction disc to the modified basket (right). Looks like it sits about the same as the original 5 disc set up (left). Used the inverted offset plate (background). The friction discs are thinner, but an additional steel is, of course, required. I may not use the heavier springs supplied in the kit, just the stock ones, not sure.
2.Correct routing (shown) and a new 219H cam chain, which had to be shortened to 82 links in order to save $20, should be good now.
Unimpressed with DID, as they too, use curled and swagged rollers, not solid. Their bicycle chains were never as good as Regina or Sedis, back when.
3. Waiting on the machinist to call with my 2nd over (+0.50mm) cylinder.
The stud sleeves came out pretty good using a Q lettered twist bit, for support, and vice grips.
The transmission shifted through the gears, even dry as a bone from being rinsed out with gas. I hope to get it on the road, for now, the spare engine will get a more thorough job this winter as back up option.
1. stuck clutch
2. floppy cam chain
3. pistons and cylinders
1. Added the extra 6th friction disc to the modified basket (right). Looks like it sits about the same as the original 5 disc set up (left). Used the inverted offset plate (background). The friction discs are thinner, but an additional steel is, of course, required. I may not use the heavier springs supplied in the kit, just the stock ones, not sure.
2.Correct routing (shown) and a new 219H cam chain, which had to be shortened to 82 links in order to save $20, should be good now.
Unimpressed with DID, as they too, use curled and swagged rollers, not solid. Their bicycle chains were never as good as Regina or Sedis, back when.
3. Waiting on the machinist to call with my 2nd over (+0.50mm) cylinder.
The stud sleeves came out pretty good using a Q lettered twist bit, for support, and vice grips.
The transmission shifted through the gears, even dry as a bone from being rinsed out with gas. I hope to get it on the road, for now, the spare engine will get a more thorough job this winter as back up option.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
The machinist called today and said his hone wouldn't go small enough for the 50mm bore, so he held off on the job. He did send me to another shop, not far away in Chambersburg, so I picked up the cylinder and went straight there. They said no problem and were cheaper and a couple day turn around.
Maybe the third time around is gonna pay off. I thanked the other guy for being so up front, honest and helpful in the referral. I'll go back with something bigger to bore when I can.
Maybe the third time around is gonna pay off. I thanked the other guy for being so up front, honest and helpful in the referral. I'll go back with something bigger to bore when I can.
Good move, you have to keep machinists happy when they treat you right. Good ones are hard enough to find as it is, you definitely want to hold onto one when you do find them.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Indeed. I should update old project thread on Blue Dream about first machinist, when I get this one more done.
I even gave $20 to the second guy for his time and effort and the referral. duffieldcycles.com Good dudes.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Boring details (happy dance)
3rd Machinist, sheelersgarage.com, knocked it out. +.50mm just made it on the rust ringed standard bore cylinder I brought him (lucky guess). He even marked pistons for best fit to which bore.
Ring gap spec in FSM is 0.15-0.35 compression(s) and 0.10-0.30 oil, at 15mm from bottom. Any recommendations on this?
3rd Machinist, sheelersgarage.com, knocked it out. +.50mm just made it on the rust ringed standard bore cylinder I brought him (lucky guess). He even marked pistons for best fit to which bore.
Ring gap spec in FSM is 0.15-0.35 compression(s) and 0.10-0.30 oil, at 15mm from bottom. Any recommendations on this?
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Glad you found someone to do the job. Have you checked the current gaps?
I'll be curious to hear recommendations, too. Naively, I would assume closer to the bottom of the spec is better (compression), but perhaps I'm overlooking competing factors (heat generation, oil flow?).
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I'll go measure the new rings when I get back to the garage, Sat. night studies at our house here.