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1967 CL77 right side engine oil leak

RetiredLEO

RetiredLEO

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Total Posts
101
Total likes
3
Location
Longview, Texas, US
Just got home with my new addition. (67) CL77. It has a leak near front drive sprocket. In the process of removing right side cover. Hitting a snag. I removed kick lever andlarge retaining pin. Can't pull the mounting bracket off the splined shaft. Used penetrating oil, still won't budge. Does the side cover slide off with this bracket attached?

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By looking at the fiche, it seems the kickstart joint (#9) is held in the cover by a snap ring (#20) on the backside so it must come off with the cover, but other far more knowledgeable members will weigh in later to confirm.

honda-cl77-scrambler-1965-usa305-kick-starterright-crankcase-cover_bighu0093e8s09_952c.jpg
 
Looking at the FSM for the C-CS-CB 77, doesn't list the CL, the kick starter lever is removed with the cover. Picture shows a different clutch cable attachment from your's but I'd assume it the same internally.
 
I'm back working on it now. Had to run out for a hour. Thanks for the advise.
LongDistanceRider said:
Looking at the FSM for the C-CS-CB 77, doesn't list the CL, the kick starter lever is removed with the cover. Picture shows a different clutch cable attachment from your's but I'd assume it the same internally.
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I was able to remove foot peg bar, right side engine cover, (but in doing so the round spring that returns kick lever sprung) I think I know how to pre load it as I slide cover back on while lining up spline to the shaft.
I can't determine which oil seal is actually leaking. Oil is everywhere. I removed chain, front sprocket. It looks like there are 3 oil seals. See attached photos. If I'm right, I'll replace all 3?

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Couldn't hurt to replace all of them, you probably have no real information on how old they are. If you're unsure of anything, hang in there until another more knowledgeable member can comment further
 
I will surely hold off, never tackled this little project before.
ancientdad said:
Couldn't hurt to replace all of them, you probably have no real information on how old they are. If you're unsure of anything, hang in there until another more knowledgeable member can comment further
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There are four seals under hat cover, unbolt the stator assembly and slide it off the rotor so you peek in behind the rotor and check out the crankshaft seal.
 
Wow! I suspected such, but was a little afraid to remove it? I've never touched a old Honda stator assembly. Any special technique.. just remove nut and slide it off and look?
mike in idaho said:
There are four seals under hat cover, unbolt the stator assembly and slide it off the rotor so you peek in behind the rotor and check out the crankshaft seal.
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Mike in Idaho, is there any danger in getting my bike out of time? Or will the stator slide right back into place after I inspect oil seal behind it?
IMG_1238.jpg
RetiredLEO said:
Wow! I suspected such, but was a little afraid to remove it? I've never touched a old Honda stator assembly. Any special technique.. just remove nut and slide it off and look?
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Forget the nut, just undo the three 6mm bolts and slide it off the rotor. It takes a pretty good tug to overcome the magnetism.The central bolt and rotor come off later, should the seal need to be changed.
 
I finally got all the crud cleaned. None of the 3 seals i.e. kick starter shaft, and the 2 on sprocket shaft are not leaking. The culprit is however the crankshaft / stator assembly oil seal. See pics showing new oil. Mike in Idaho, I'm going to remove stator. Do I remove the 3 6mm bolts and pull the rotor or do I pull the entire unit by removing the large nut /bolt in center? Will I mess the timing up in doing so?

My cell # is 318-210-1707IMG_1240.jpgIMG_1239.jpg
RetiredLEO said:
Gotcha Mike, I'll get back to it. Thanks again!
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RetiredLEO said:
Mike in Idaho, I'm going to remove stator. Do I remove the 3 6mm bolts and pull the rotor or do I pull the entire unit by removing the large nut /bolt in center?
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See his answer in bold from previous post above

mike in idaho said:
Forget the nut, just undo the three 6mm bolts and slide it off the rotor. It takes a pretty good tug to overcome the magnetism. The central bolt and rotor come off later, should the seal need to be changed.
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RetiredLEO said:
Will I mess the timing up in doing so?
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You will not change the timing, it's set by the points and points plate position. The rotor goes on a woddruff key and locates in the exact same place when you put it back on the crankshaft.
 
Oil leak behind stator assembly

Ancientdad, thanks for the response, sitting here watching my email and hoping for expert advise. My question about the timing reveals just how limited my knowledge truly is lol. I'll proceed with photos and report. Thanks again.

ancientdad said:
See his answer in bold from previous post above





You will not change the timing, it's set by the points and points plate position. The rotor goes on a woddruff key and locates in the exact same place when you put it back on the crankshaft.
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Stator removal

I was able to loosen the large center bolt and view the key. It's very tight and I suspect I need to go get a flywheel puller? PatIMG_1244.jpg
RetiredLEO said:
Ancientdad, thanks for the response, sitting here watching my email and hoping for expert advise. My question about the timing reveals just how limited my knowledge truly is lol. I'll proceed with photos and report. Thanks again.
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NOT a conventional puller, so don't go get one from the auto parts store, you'll damage the rotor. Get a 16mm x 1.5mm bolt from the hardware store about 3" long and use that
 
You might check the threads on the rear axle, possibly it may have the correct threads. Don't hit the rotor with a hammer, that will destroy part of it magnetism. While it's apart slip the rotor back inside the stator, that helps to preserve the magnet's power.
 
Hammer use

Thanks Mike! And Thanks to 66Sprint! who just called me and walked me through proper removal, storing stator rotor assembly during wait time to receive seal. He gave me detailed instructions on reassembly too. Even mentioned rear wheel shaft like You Mike. Without y'alls helpful advise I would have damaged my baby! Thanks again!
mike in idaho said:
You might check the threads on the rear axle, possibly it may have the correct threads. Don't hit the rotor with a hammer, that will destroy part of it magnetism. While it's apart slip the rotor back inside the stator, that helps to preserve the magnet's power.
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Dead in the water till Monday. Ace Hardware only has unto 14mm. I'm going to Fastenal ? Monday to get 16mm, 1.5 x 3" bolt to remove rotor.
RetiredLEO said:
Thanks Mike! And Thanks to 66Sprint! who just called me and walked me through proper removal, storing stator rotor assembly during wait time to receive seal. He gave me detailed instructions on reassembly too. Even mentioned rear wheel shaft like You Mike. Without y'alls helpful advise I would have damaged my baby! Thanks again!
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If you felt like pulling the rear axle it should work, both Mike and Steve have mentioned that they believe the size and thread pitch are the same and it's also true of other Hondas as well. When you tighten the bolt (or axle) into the rotor, snug it up against the end of the crankshaft and then tap the end of the bolt (or axle) with a hammer gently, then tighten it again, repeat. Eventually the tension against the end of the crankshaft and the repeated (moderate, gentle) tapping on the end of the bolt (or axle) will cause the rotor to pop off the taper on the end of the crankshaft. As mentioned before, don't hit the rotor itself trying to loosen it from the taper.
 
I think I'll use the axel. 66Sprint reminded me to pup blanket or pillow in a box to catch the rotor when it comes off to keep it from damage. I update when done.
ancientdad said:
If you felt like pulling the rear axle it should work, both Mike and Steve have mentioned that they believe the size and thread pitch are the same and it's also true of other Hondas as well. When you tighten the bolt (or axle) into the rotor, snug it up against the end of the crankshaft and then tap the end of the bolt (or axle) with a hammer gently, then tighten it again, repeat. Eventually the tension against the end of the crankshaft and the repeated (moderate, gentle) tapping on the end of the bolt (or axle) will cause the rotor to pop off the taper on the end of the crankshaft. As mentioned before, don't hit the rotor itself trying to loosen it from the taper.
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Well Dang! Pulled the axel, its too big, looks like one size too big. I'll have to wait till Monday and try to locate the 16mm, 1.5, 3" ----5" .IMG_1246.jpg
 
IMG_1250.jpgIMG_1251.jpg

With the help of several here, I was easily able to remove the rotor Safely.Waiting for new seals to arrive. Do any of you have special steps regarding replacement? Example, the main shaft seal with small tab. Does this seal have a inner lip that will prevent removal of old seal unless the bottom of case is separated?
 
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Clean the right side cover and kickstarter parts and look for cracks. The kickstarter knuckle, where it fits over the spline has a tendency to crack at the end of the kickstarter return spring anchor slot, sometimes repairable with weld if you catch it early. New ones are pretty much unobtainium. Also check the outer cover for cracks around the kickstart shaft bushing. When assembling the cover there is a small hash mark on the clutch adjuster that is lined up a small raised bump,cast into the cover, that is your beginning place for clutch adjustment.
 
RetiredLEO said:
View attachment 9402View attachment 9403

With the help of several here, I was easily able to remove the rotor Safely.Waiting for new seals to arrive. Do any of you have special steps regarding replacement? Example, the main shaft seal with small tab. Does this seal have a inner lip that will prevent removal of old seal unless the bottom of case is separated?
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Simply going to the parts fiche and looking will answer these questions.......

CL77 crank seal.png


The crank seal is flat-sided with the exception of the alignment tab and can be replaced without splitting the cases.....
 
Mike, here are a couple pics for your review. Thanks
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mike in idaho said:
Clean the right side cover and kickstarter parts and look for cracks. The kickstarter knuckle, where it fits over the spline has a tendency to crack at the end of the kickstarter return spring anchor slot, sometimes repairable with weld if you catch it early. New ones are pretty much unobtainium. Also check the outer cover for cracks around the kickstart shaft bushing. When assembling the cover there is a small hash mark on the clutch adjuster that is lined up a small raised bump,cast into the cover, that is your beginning place for clutch adjustment.
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Mike you "said When assembling the cover there is a small hash mark on the clutch adjuster that is lined up a small raised bump,cast into the cover, that is your beginning place for clutch adjustment." I must be blind, I don't see the the hash mark or the small bump. And I don't know what it means to "beginning place for clutch adjustment.
 
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RetiredLEO said:
Mike you "said When assembling the cover there is a small hash mark on the clutch adjuster that is lined up a small raised bump,cast into the cover, that is your beginning place for clutch adjustment." I must be blind, I don't see the the hash mark or the small bump. And I don't know what it means to "beginning place for clutch adjustment.
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PM sent
 
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I told you wrong(blame it on old age), the hash mark is on the cover and the little raised dot is on the round clutch adjuster.DAF68301-37E5-43DF-B92E-11466973CB13.jpg See that little dot next to the casting number?
 
Cap, Clutch Cable Hole #11925-259-000 . While waiting for oil seals I decided to replace this cap as it was beat up pretty badly. Since it was already damaged I used a impact driver to fee it. Not good, its frozen. Currently the R side engine cover is off and on my work bench. It did not slide as I attempted to back out this cap but it just won't give. Any advice?

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PUT DOWN THE HAMMER, unscrew that 6mm bolt and part #7 :https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partsl...right-crankcase-cover_bighu0093e8s09_952c.gif will drop off the back of the cover, then tap (gently) on the center of the cap and it will drop out the back of the cover. The cap/clutch lifter goes in from the rear side of the cover, it is rotated to adjust the clutch and the clamp(#7) is used to secure it from turning. BTW, that 6mm bolt does not need very much torque to hold the adjustment, that clamp will break if you overdo it.
 
Wow, I'm a bull in a china shop! Thank you so much. So the cap doesn't come out from outside to adjust clutch? IMG_1277.jpg
mike in idaho said:
PUT DOWN THE HAMMER, unscrew that 6mm bolt and part #7 :https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partsl...right-crankcase-cover_bighu0093e8s09_952c.gif will drop off the back of the cover, then tap (gently) on the center of the cap and it will drop out the back of the cover. The cap/clutch lifter goes in from the rear side of the cover, it is rotated to adjust the clutch and the clamp(#7) is used to secure it from turning. BTW, that 6mm bolt does not need very much torque to hold the adjustment, that clamp will break if you overdo it.
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It stays in the cover, you rotate it to adjust things. Twist the two ends and it will come apart so you can clean/lube the spiral clutch lifter thread. Keep track of the bearing ball, in the center of the cable arm for reassembly later.
 
Thanks again. I downloaded the Owners and Service Manuel. I can't seem to find detailed instructions to make any adjustments. I'll keep searching. Thanks again.
mike in idaho said:
It stays in the cover, you rotate it to adjust things. Twist the two ends and it will come apart so you can clean/lube the spiral clutch lifter thread. Keep track of the bearing ball, in the center of the cable arm for reassembly later.
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Thanks again 66Sprint! I will download the Common Service Manuel and study clutch adjustment for 175cc. Thanks again for the call and step by step instructions dealing with clutch cable assembly. This answers all my previous questions. Thanks to all others who assisted as well.
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I'm confused again. I understand my `1967 CL77 requires a # 10 Steel ball bearing, inserted within the clutch adjustment so it can make contact with the outer end of the clutch pushrod. The end of the pushrod on my bike is already rounded and equals a 1/2 ball bearing. The rod enters the adjustment assembly on the outer cover. I remove the grease and see the inside of the assembly is molded so it can accept the rounded end of the push rod.
Looking at the downloaded fiche from this library (parts list ) it shows no ball bearing. Looking at CMSNL I see the ball bearing as number #30. Part 962-1110-000. Is a ball bearing actually required here?
honda-cl77-scrambler-1965-usa305-kick-starterright-crankcase-cover_bighu0093e8s09_952c.jpgUntitled.jpg
 
I suspect you're thinking the clutch rod goes in with the flat end inside the engine, and though I'm not very familiar with the 305 engine I believe the rounded end goes inside the engine to push the clutch lifter part against the pressure plate. The ball is for the flat end of the rod that has a dimple in the center of it if it's like the other twins (175, 350, 450)

honda-cl77-scrambler-1965-usa305-transmission_bighu0093e8s07_b3a0.jpg
 
Ancientdad, Thanks for pointing this out to me. I pulled up another diagram of this and was confused. When I tore this section down the flat end was inserted into the engine/clutch wrongfully? I'll order a #10 steel ball bearing in the morning and follow this diagram as I reassemble.
ancientdad said:
I suspect you're thinking the clutch rod goes in with the flat end inside the engine, and though I'm not very familiar with the 305 engine I believe the rounded end goes inside the engine to push the clutch lifter part against the pressure plate. The ball is for the flat end of the rod that has a dimple in the center of it if it's like the other twins (175, 350, 450)

View attachment 9554
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Dang, Not sure if the previous guy shoved the ball bearing inside the main case and used the pushrod as a ramrod. As I mentioned above, the rounded end was pointed outside to the R outer engine cover. I'll follow the diagram Ancientdad provided and reassemble, fingers crossed that the old bearing is not stuck inside the clutch area somewhere. I hope I do not have to remove that side to correct this. Strange though, before I tore this side down to address leaking oil seals, the clutch seemed to work OK. Thanks for the comments. Attached is a photo of the pushrod I took the first day I tore it down, shows the rounded end of pushrod pointed out from the engine R side. IMG_1239.jpg
mike in idaho said:
With the clutch pushrod in there backwards, it's possible someone put the ball in the wrong side too.
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Ball bearing steel # 10. part # 962-1110-000. Question. Would a average local Bearing company recognize a metric #10 ball bearing and sale me one across the counter? If not I guess I'll have to delay reassembly waiting for it to come from a Internet parts provider like the other parts I've purchased.
 
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