ballbearian
Veteran Member
Curious item here. The PO's rendition of a battery side cover knob deserves an honorable mention. He had a thing for SAE threads.
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Blue Dream CA78
- Thread starter ballbearian
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- old men dream dreams
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Spoke triage
The rear wheel spokes were, well, tortured. In addition to 2 broken/missing, there were a few that had been replaced. I later found a couple more that were just wrong. 1 was not even single butted but a straight gauge from who knows where. Another was a "B" spoke used in an "A' position. The greatly varying amount tension evident as I was disassembling caused concerns that I may have an egg shaped, or flat spotted rim when all said and done but when I got it all apart the rim still looks round. We will see, of course when all back together on the trueing stand. The spokes and nipples got the ultrasonic bath and then some straightening and even sanding the rust of using a drill chuck and 320 grit paper. Once they get pretty, I'll give them a coat of clear paint as well as the hub ribs and inner hub flanges. The pitting on the hub was such that the abrasive fiber brush wheel only improved what was too far gone. I'll probably sand and buff the outer flanges.
The parts bike hub got stripped for bearings and seals, amazingly still decent. You could see the inner tube through the rust holes in the rim, it was that bad.
The rear wheel spokes were, well, tortured. In addition to 2 broken/missing, there were a few that had been replaced. I later found a couple more that were just wrong. 1 was not even single butted but a straight gauge from who knows where. Another was a "B" spoke used in an "A' position. The greatly varying amount tension evident as I was disassembling caused concerns that I may have an egg shaped, or flat spotted rim when all said and done but when I got it all apart the rim still looks round. We will see, of course when all back together on the trueing stand. The spokes and nipples got the ultrasonic bath and then some straightening and even sanding the rust of using a drill chuck and 320 grit paper. Once they get pretty, I'll give them a coat of clear paint as well as the hub ribs and inner hub flanges. The pitting on the hub was such that the abrasive fiber brush wheel only improved what was too far gone. I'll probably sand and buff the outer flanges.
The parts bike hub got stripped for bearings and seals, amazingly still decent. You could see the inner tube through the rust holes in the rim, it was that bad.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I forgot to say the spokes seen after 2 20 minute cycles in Simple Green's Aircraft industrial cleaner in the ultra sonic. The zinc coating is toast as well as about half the coatings on the brass nipples.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Points hunting.
It seems the later points 30201-259-004 are pretty hard to come by. The plate says Denso. The earlier type, ending in 003 are easy to get (and I accidently bought some) but will not fit the later plate. So, I might keep trying for the 004 points. I thought of finding an early plate(s) as all three motors currently in the garage are late types, but that may be a waste of time due to other fitment issues. Photos below show the different styles. The late type has an extra hole that a small eccentric screw for gapping fits. I am missing 2 of three needed eccentrics.
Another option is to ditch the points and go electronic.
Honda CA72/77 Dream 61-68 Elec. Ign (nichecycle.com)
I know there are other options and would appreciate any suggestions/ feedback on good choices here.
It seems the later points 30201-259-004 are pretty hard to come by. The plate says Denso. The earlier type, ending in 003 are easy to get (and I accidently bought some) but will not fit the later plate. So, I might keep trying for the 004 points. I thought of finding an early plate(s) as all three motors currently in the garage are late types, but that may be a waste of time due to other fitment issues. Photos below show the different styles. The late type has an extra hole that a small eccentric screw for gapping fits. I am missing 2 of three needed eccentrics.
Another option is to ditch the points and go electronic.
Honda CA72/77 Dream 61-68 Elec. Ign (nichecycle.com)
I know there are other options and would appreciate any suggestions/ feedback on good choices here.
Some crusty stuff there, the hub looks surprisingly good considering.
Those spokes and nipples will respond well to DIY zinc electroplating if you've got the time to spare.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Probably would be optimum. I wonder if nickel plating would be difficult. I've never done any type of it.
Some side reading then: http://mgarestoration.blogspot.com/2012/03/diy-zinc-plating-of-small-parts.html?m=1
Nickel may require a base layer of copper. You can plate zinc directly onto steel. Zinc is anodic to steel, it will sacrifice itself to protect the steel from rusting, exactly the opposite of what chrome will do.
Nickel may require a base layer of copper. You can plate zinc directly onto steel. Zinc is anodic to steel, it will sacrifice itself to protect the steel from rusting, exactly the opposite of what chrome will do.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Thanks for the link and info. Never too old to learn.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I read it and put in my favorites for later use. With some set up and practice one could a nice side line going.
Hondaholic
Veteran Member
Coincidentally, I was reading about DIY electroplating kits just days ago. Not sure if I'd be game to outlay the money for kit PLUS powerpack. The above-referenced blog notes shows what might be a simple solution, but I'm one who would rather take a box of parts to the plater's and have it done professionally. Easy way out? Not sure. Didn't Dirty Harry say something about a man having to 'know his limitations'?
The other problem for us Brit folk, is that we won't sacrifice our vinegar for anything other than our Fish and Chips!!:biggrin:
The other problem for us Brit folk, is that we won't sacrifice our vinegar for anything other than our Fish and Chips!!:biggrin:
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Don't hate me. I put a few drops on toes to stop athlete's foot.
I may be stubborn enough to plate but probably not smart enough. I need to use the "easy" button more.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Choice new tubes just arrived. Had to share these original packaged and pristine NOS babies. Check out the valve caps with the rubber wrench tip cover. Just don't see this quality much anymore. From a small go kart shop in PA via ebay and an old school price to boot.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
The "A" or inside spokes arrived. Went with 220 grit on the hub but needed to go 100 grit on the insides of the flanges. Next 320 grit and maybe ready for the sisal buffer wheel.
Pic shows half done with 100 grit and half just the way the nylon abrasive wheel left it.
Next pic shows the untouched front hub to show how far it's come.
Also the official Vintage Honda Twins clear caliper paint for the hub and the sanded (220grit) spokes.
The brake plate is getting the SOS soap pad treatment first. The old clearcoat is a pain.
Pic shows half done with 100 grit and half just the way the nylon abrasive wheel left it.
Next pic shows the untouched front hub to show how far it's come.
Also the official Vintage Honda Twins clear caliper paint for the hub and the sanded (220grit) spokes.
The brake plate is getting the SOS soap pad treatment first. The old clearcoat is a pain.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Electronic ignition sourcing
I see that Niche cycle has a tytronic unit for $120 that is very similar to the Vintage Honda Shop unit for $20 more. Any experience with these? Or preferences, or others that I should consider?
Honda CA72/77 Dream 61-68 Elec. Ign (nichecycle.com)
I see that Niche cycle has a tytronic unit for $120 that is very similar to the Vintage Honda Shop unit for $20 more. Any experience with these? Or preferences, or others that I should consider?
Honda CA72/77 Dream 61-68 Elec. Ign (nichecycle.com)
jensen
Veteran Member
I really don't understand why so many people switching over to E-ignition, and especially on a dream with only one contact breaker. How many miles are you planning to ride the bike ? Adjusting points is an easy job, especially on a dream. I ride my CB450 K0 for at least 5000 miles/year, with points and original wiring including the original rectifier. Only twice a year I check them en keep them lubricated, this year it wasn't even necessary to adjust them because they were spot-on.
The E-ignition needs a nice and clean voltage, the early bikes with a rectifier only don't have a nice and clean voltage (due to the old selenium rectifier technology). And besides that, the electrical system of these old Honda's are a balanced system, there is no voltage regulation ! If you change something in the electrical setup, a new balance has to be defined. That's why on-line shops advice you to also replace the rectifier by a voltage regulator. Even changing the battery by a more modern type (gel) is not advised because the internal resistance is different.
Maybe not particular for this thread, but I see so many electrical-issue's related questions on this forum, and these issue's won't be solved by chancing some parts by modern replacements. Understanding what's going on is step one, it's all about the why's, and how's.
btw, if you in need of a few NOS spokes for your dream I can help you with that. I don't know what shipping would be.
The E-ignition needs a nice and clean voltage, the early bikes with a rectifier only don't have a nice and clean voltage (due to the old selenium rectifier technology). And besides that, the electrical system of these old Honda's are a balanced system, there is no voltage regulation ! If you change something in the electrical setup, a new balance has to be defined. That's why on-line shops advice you to also replace the rectifier by a voltage regulator. Even changing the battery by a more modern type (gel) is not advised because the internal resistance is different.
Maybe not particular for this thread, but I see so many electrical-issue's related questions on this forum, and these issue's won't be solved by chancing some parts by modern replacements. Understanding what's going on is step one, it's all about the why's, and how's.
btw, if you in need of a few NOS spokes for your dream I can help you with that. I don't know what shipping would be.
Nice, if only everyone knew what VHT really stood for...
Yeah, it's amazingly tough stuff. Takes a while to burn through it when you're re-polishing something that still has some left on it after 50 years.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Thank you jensen. This is exactly the kind of feedback I need. My electrical skills are probably my weakest area due to a lack of fundamental theory. I do trust the old school engineering that Honda used (given current technology). I also believe in "if it ain't broke don't fix it" to a large extent. That said, here is my reasons for my plans to change the OEM set up:
1. Points availability - our domestic stash is petered out and Asia is not re-popping (yet). I am referring to part no. 30201-259-004 used in all (or most) years except 1961, which used 30201-259-003. I have some -003 but not the plate that goes with. The -004 is a Denso, not even sure what -003 is. Thus with both Dreams here (my '64 and another '65) eventually needing points, I thought I'd seek a remedy. Perhaps I should be patient and watch ebay more and be willing to pay north of $80 for a set.
2. Battery- Again availability and or exorbitant prices for OEM. Many use a Motobatt brand AGM for $80 or more with good results. I found a MightyMax gel unit for $30 that fit my early style and skinny frame box. I've used one of these on a 73 CB350 with great success. The MightyMax appears in previous pics in this thread.
3. Selenium rectifier- Since I've had to replace 2 of these with silicone type on my '60's bikes due to them "leaking" and thus discharging the batteries, I anticipate having to use ebay seller braintarp's replacements.
I thoroughly agree with your philosophy here but necessity is what it is.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Nice, if only everyone knew what VHT really stood for...
Yeah, it's amazingly tough stuff. Takes a while to burn through it when you're re-polishing something that still has some left on it after 50 years.
My SOS pads make a good start, especially if it's really bad and half gone. I like the SOS because it does little damage to prior factory polishing. I've not tried Aircraft stripper but I should. I bet the stuff they used on the Egyptian mummies is the same.
jensen
Veteran Member
Ok, I didn't know that these points were hard to get and expensive. I have a C77 '64 en uses a 003 plus plate 003. I never have to buy points, got plenty of them.
Anyway, good luck with your build, definitely following it. This is how things should be placed:
Anyway, good luck with your build, definitely following it. This is how things should be placed:
If you use Aircraft Stripper wear a respirator rated for fumes. There's MEK in that stuff if it's a few years old, not sure about their new blend.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Then there is the issue with the Dream headlamps. We've had to replace one of ours with a NOS aftermarket unit ("English" made in Japan on the glass 25/25 watt). It is barely adequate on the unlit rural roads we ride. So, I am planning on modifying a couple of our burnt- out units for LED increased brightness using an H4 type base. Trying to find similar current usage is a pain as most ads on ebay or amazon don't specify. I ordered these because they were cheap for experimenting with:
H4 9003 HB2 3030 6000K 55W 8000LM LED Headlight High Low Beam Bulb Kit White | eBay
We need bikes to ride not just functional museum pieces.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Yes. You have the later battery type. As far as the points situation goes, I'm just not sure if I want to spend so much and still be stuck in a dwindling supply. I forgot to mention that I actually have 3 engines, all of the 004, not 003 variety. Here is CMS's offerings. Of note, there is an eccentric adjusting slotted screw used on the 004 variety, that we only have 1 of currently and I've not seen any spares of this at all.
BREAKER CONTACT for CA77 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964I 1964II 1964III DREAM USA (142592) - order at CMSNL
POINTS ASSY. for CA77 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964I 1964II 1964III DREAM USA (142592) - order at CMSNL
They do have the 003 plates only but then I need to possibly change all the condensers (they list 3 or 4 different ones). I've been cleaning and dressing points for years. Probably squeeze 6k miles out of a set if good quality and matched condenser to start with but I get a bit cagey not having access to a new set on hand.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Better than homemade
My FB friend from one of the model specific groups made me a deal on this. Thanks Nadeem (I'll keep trying to lure him here)
structurally intact too.
My FB friend from one of the model specific groups made me a deal on this. Thanks Nadeem (I'll keep trying to lure him here)
structurally intact too.
jensen
Veteran Member
Wow, that's not my experience. More in the direction of 20K miles for a set of points at my CB450 K0, and more or less the same on my CB72. When do you decide to change your points ? I mean, where are you looking at ? Contact surfaces ? Lift, contact angle ? Dwell time ? My experience is, that when you have a good condenser, so that the points don't spark, these points last long.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Actually not that far apart. 2 points = 1/2 the work and double my estimate so 10K (you) for single point system. Also just thinking back to days in the Fiat/ VW garages with Magneto Morelli and Bosch stuff in a distributor. When the pitting is > half the point surface diameter, then new would probably give better performance (more consistent spark). You are probably closer than I was in true usage.
Just a comment on the points.......
AFAIK, the early points and points-plate that used the eccentric gap adjusting screw were originally manufactured for Honda by Hitachi.....
Denso essentially used a similar/(the same ?) feature when they shared or took over the manufacturing responsibility for these parts.....
HOWEVER, like the advance units (which were also produced by several manufacturers), while the whole units can be substituted, the points must also be used as a unit with matching plates........
The pictured Daiichi points MIGHT work with either a Kokusan Denki plate, the later style Nippon Denso plate (ND in a circle trademark), or a TEC plate as well as the matching Daiichi plate.......
AFAIK, the early points and points-plate that used the eccentric gap adjusting screw were originally manufactured for Honda by Hitachi.....
Denso essentially used a similar/(the same ?) feature when they shared or took over the manufacturing responsibility for these parts.....
HOWEVER, like the advance units (which were also produced by several manufacturers), while the whole units can be substituted, the points must also be used as a unit with matching plates........
The pictured Daiichi points MIGHT work with either a Kokusan Denki plate, the later style Nippon Denso plate (ND in a circle trademark), or a TEC plate as well as the matching Daiichi plate.......
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Interesting. Thanks for the lost history. At this point
0), not sure which way to go; acquire other plates, pay big $ for right points or use tytronic ign. The used points will suffice for engine work on the stand. A ways to go fore she's on the road. Like to hear your preference.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Interesting. Thanks for the lost history. At this point
Oh, and this one plus the other Dream and the spare engine are all the same, so times 3 eventually.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Ready to build R wheel
The finish on the insides of this hub just was not that good to start with. I went as far as 320 grit and I am tired and done so it got the clear coat VHT caliper paint. The brake plate has only been SOS scrubbed and I'll 1000 grit wet sand before final buff on the 8 inch buffer. Time to grease balls and start lacing spokes.
The finish on the insides of this hub just was not that good to start with. I went as far as 320 grit and I am tired and done so it got the clear coat VHT caliper paint. The brake plate has only been SOS scrubbed and I'll 1000 grit wet sand before final buff on the 8 inch buffer. Time to grease balls and start lacing spokes.
Here comes the fun part, seeing the parts really come together, there's nothing like lacing up a wheel.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I was pleased to be able to lace it up in a symmetrical spoke pattern, i.e. all the outside or "B" spokes are under rotational tension and the "A" spokes will be under tension only when braking. In the bicycle world, it does make for a stronger wheel, but does take a bit more time to lace up. Factory wheels are built by robots and are always asymmetric. Cost effective was the comment by the manufacture's rep when I asked him. The issue used to cause some lively debates in the shop.
Also tickled to find the old rim was more round than a stop sign. The beatings will continue until full compliance is achieved, less than 2mm runout and eccentricity.
Old swing arm for a jig works for me.
Also tickled to find the old rim was more round than a stop sign. The beatings will continue until full compliance is achieved, less than 2mm runout and eccentricity.
Old swing arm for a jig works for me.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Beautiful work ballbearian
Isn't that one of the best feelings you can have putting a bike together?
CB2NR
Veteran Member
Nice work! Thanks for the updates.
For me, it's engine assembly. Rims not so much, but I enjoy the fact that some get more out of it than I do.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Yeah Alan, When all the grumbling turns into song, it's all good.
Tom, I'm saving the best for last. Just ordered Niche Cycle's electronic ignition in anticipation.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
There is the one for this and another from the parts bike, a mess of a 350 and a push-rod 90 sitting on their gurneys in triage.
And a Jeep in need of some skin grafts, that northern road salt wreaks havoc
ballbearian
Veteran Member
It's a shame isn't it. It came from Colo. with me in '02. Still only 90K on it, an '89. I told myself to finish the brake lines and coilsprings replacement before starting the Dream but I guess I'm impulsive.
I wish they'd find a better way to help with winter ice. I remember my father complaining about how bad the rust was on northern cars after we moved here and he got to do body work on Florida cars. Lifespan of a northern vehicle is often so much shorter, so many critical areas underneath a car that can be affected. Ugh.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I think I'm on the 3rd exhaust and I don't drive that often. Brake lines toast, calipers needed complete clean and MC. The rust really is dis-heartening. I've been procrastinating to drop the front axle to replace a broken coil spring cause I know I'll find more stuff to replace.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Alan did you use the extreme or regular
The regular, red can. It goes on like oil but seems to soak in and dry out a little if left long enough. I think I'd try aerosol next time around.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
After reading the manufactures info at CorrosionX and your positive experiences, I got to thinking about the polarizing effect and remembered I got this can in a stash of firearms stuff given to me. I put some on the rim and am quite pleased. This can is at least as old as my Dream, so I figured, what the heck.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Rim flat spot fix
It trued up pretty good considering the broken spokes and all. Just one flat spot that I marked on the rim side about 3-4 inches with the highest point with an arrow. Only about 4-5mm out, but a good whack with 2x2 and hand sledge supported in a 3 piece 2x4 cradle, brought it down to about 2-3mm. Better and close enough. Time to mount rubber.
It trued up pretty good considering the broken spokes and all. Just one flat spot that I marked on the rim side about 3-4 inches with the highest point with an arrow. Only about 4-5mm out, but a good whack with 2x2 and hand sledge supported in a 3 piece 2x4 cradle, brought it down to about 2-3mm. Better and close enough. Time to mount rubber.
I've done that a few times over the years, these rims can be brought back to usable if not horribly bad.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I've never even really seen the need to add balance weights but I'm not on the strip or track either.
jensen
Veteran Member
Riding around 130 km/hr or faster on a regular basis (CB450 K0 and CB72 with a 350 cc kit) on our Dutch, and sometimes German Highway's. Also depends on the tires you have, mine are BT45's, and I found that the wheels itself don't need the balance weights, but as soon as you put a tire on them weight is unevenly distributed, even more then a few grams balance weight is needed to get everything balanced again.
It might seem that the dreams are used for more moderate speeds, but don't forget that the dreams have 16 inch wheels, which rotate faster at any given speed (no more then 100-120 km/hr or 60-75 mls/hr) then bikes with larger wheels (due to difference in circumference).
All to theoretical ? I don't know, it's not a big deal to balance them, so why not ? I also like my cranks straight, maybe not necessary but I know a straight crack runs better, have less wear, and vibrations are lower.