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1971 CL350K3 engine cam

Jetmech

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Total Posts
167
Total likes
2
Location
Edmond, Oklahoma
Can a fat cam, cam housing, and rocker arms be used be used in a 350K3? Is there anything else that needs to be used if I install a fat cam setup?
I just had Delta do a fat cam, and rockers. I plan on measuring them before installing them but I thought I would ask the above question for advise from the forum. I will post photos of the cam and rockers before installation if the readings are good. I know there have been complaints about deltas work. Thanks in advance.

regards,
jetmech
 
LongDistanceRider said:
The cam gear does have a different number 286 vs the later 312. I'm not sure what the actual difference would be.
Click to expand...


Fat cam gear won't fit on a skinny cam, opening too small to go over lobes. DSC03286.jpgDSC03284.jpg

I have way too many cams .... in the picture the gear on the right is for the skinny cam and has 312 in the plastic. Also note the difference in how the plastic is formed with the fat cam having the flat top.
 
Boomer343 said:
Fat cam gear won't fit on a skinny cam, opening too small to go over lobes. View attachment 9027View attachment 9028

I have way too many cams .... in the picture the gear on the right is for the skinny cam and has 312 in the plastic. Also note the difference in how the plastic is formed with the fat cam having the flat top.
Click to expand...

I have the cam, rockers, cam gear, cam gear bolts, cam housing, rocker/valve adjusters, and nuts that were assembled together when I bought them. I did not see a side clearance shim when I removed the cam for repair. Thanks for all the input.
jetmech
 
When you put it all together you can check the end play to see if you need a shim, sometimes you don't. Check it with feeler gauges against the spec in the FSM.
 
ancientdad said:
When you put it all together you can check the end play to see if you need a shim, sometimes you don't. Check it with feeler gauges against the spec in the FSM.
Click to expand...

i will check the end play. Hopefully none is needed, Is the shim hard to get?
thanks,
jetmech
 
Jetmech said:
i will check the end play. Hopefully none is needed, Is the shim hard to get?
thanks,
jetmech
Click to expand...

They aren't all that available anymore. I only have one spare myself (the 450 uses the same shim) after giving away one a few years ago to someone on HT looking for one. Search eBay for them. They come in 2 thicknesses, 0.1mm and 0.2mm, here are the part numbers

0.1 - 14294-283-000

0.2 - 14295-283-000

Worse comes to worst, you can get the 0.2 shim from CMS but the shipping will probably be about $25 for a $4 shim
 
I do the end play check before final assembly by putting the cam into the box, gaskets and caps in place and tighten down the screws with my impact(ordinary 18v Milwaukee) . No rockers etc. I have checked after final assembly and it has been within spec. Saves time and fighting all the other parts.
 
ancientdad said:
They aren't all that available anymore. I only have one spare myself (the 450 uses the same shim) after giving away one a few years ago to someone on HT looking for one. Search eBay for them. They come in 2 thicknesses, 0.1mm and 0.2mm, here are the part numbers

0.1 - 14294-283-000

0.2 - 14295-283-000

Worse comes to worst, you can get the 0.2 shim from CMS but the shipping will probably be about $25 for a $4 shim
Click to expand...

thanks,
jetmech
 
Buy some shim stock of appropriate thickness (IIRC @ McMaster-Carr?),...
Stack and clamp several slips between short lengths of angle iron,...
SLOWLY drill the correct size center hole through the bundle,...
You can then use decent scissors to trim the outer perimeter circumference.......
 
66Sprint said:
Buy some shim stock of appropriate thickness (IIRC @ McMaster-Carr?),...
Stack and clamp several slips between short lengths of angle iron,...
SLOWLY drill the correct size center hole through the bundle,...
You can then use decent scissors to trim the outer perimeter circumference.......
Click to expand...

thanks for the info, I was thinking just that and it’s allot cheaper too.
jetmech
 
McMaster sells round shim stock with the appropriate size hole already in it. You’ll just need to order 25 of them for $7 plus shipping.

I’ve got a bunch of these rattling around my parts box:

https://www.mcmaster.com/98055A243/

Happy to mail a few for the cost of postage. I don’t think I’ll need 25.

Fair warning, I haven’t actually used these on my cam yet, but I believe the ID and OD should be OK.


-Ed
1972 CL350
 
Ribrickulous said:
McMaster sells round shim stock with the appropriate size hole already in it. You’ll just need to order 25 of them for $7 plus shipping.

I’ve got a bunch of these rattling around my parts box:

https://www.mcmaster.com/98055A243/

Happy to mail a few for the cost of postage. I don’t think I’ll need 25.

Fair warning, I haven’t actually used these on my cam yet, but I believe the ID and OD should be OK.


-Ed
1972 CL350
Click to expand...

thanks for the info
Jetmech
 
I’d appreciate some of these McMasterCarr shims too, if still available…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
DSC03290.jpg

These are OE Honda, measurement done with a Vernier Caliper.
A quick check of the cam shows 21.9 mm for the shaft but the inside corner is rounded so those McMaster shims may need some work done to them to fit correctly.

BTW most racers leave the shim out.
 
Iirc the note in the FSM says that you may experience some top end noise / vibrations around 4-5k.

If a racer is spending time in that RPM range they’re losing pretty hard =)


-Ed
1972 CL350
 
Ribrickulous said:
Iirc the note in the FSM says that you may experience some top end noise / vibrations around 4-5k.

If a racer is spending time in that RPM range they’re losing pretty hard =)


-Ed
1972 CL350
Click to expand...

I guess I messed up what cam I’m using in this thread. I got the cam and rockers back today, it’s a skinny cam and rockers (my bad) I haven’t measured The cam lobes and bearing journals yet but a visual inspection show they look pretty good IMO. See attached photos.
437DA38E-9D35-444F-A0F9-16484AE68232.jpg845B8666-9B52-4706-9461-E7E485F14EEB.jpg63CE9839-01FB-4585-96F3-AA6C586BFBF3.jpg

Jetmech
 
Yup, PM your address. I’ll send you and Rockreef three of them.

I tried them on my cam tonight and they seemed to work fine.


-Ed
1972 CL350
 
Jetmech said:
I guess I messed up what cam I’m using in this thread. I got the cam and rockers back today, it’s a skinny cam and rockers (my bad) I haven’t measured The cam lobes and bearing journals yet but a visual inspection show they look pretty good IMO. See attached photos.
View attachment 9091View attachment 9092View attachment 9093

Jetmech
Click to expand...
Measured the Delta repaired cam today with a digital caliper (don’t have micrometers)
1. Cam lobes ranged from: 1.451-1.457
2 Cam bearing journals: 0.864-0.865

I used a harbor freight digital caliper so I am no sure how accurate it is. It certainly isn’t a lab calibrated instrument.
May ask my friend if I can borrow his micrometers to double check them before my top end rebuild build this fall/winter.
what do you guys suggest?

thanks,
Jetmech
 
The rocker gets adjusted off the base circle - I think the 1.4xx measurement you read off is the high of the lobe? Correct?

The lift is really what’s critical, the delta between the base and the tip of the lobe. .288 or .316 if I remember?

I know there’s a thread on here somewhere.. I’ll see if I can pull it up…


-Ed
1972 CL350
 
Ribrickulous said:
The rocker gets adjusted off the base circle - I think the 1.4xx measurement you read off is the high of the lobe? Correct?

The lift is really what’s critical, the delta between the base and the tip of the lobe. .288 or .316 if I remember?

I know there’s a thread on here somewhere.. I’ll see if I can pull it up…


-Ed
1972 CL350
Click to expand...
Duh! I should know the rocker clearance is done on the base circle since the rockers are loose. Yes, my measurement with the caliper was max height of the lobe. I will re-measure with a micrometer and check the delta between to two. Thanks for straightening me out.
jetmech
 
Delta usually doesn’t weld cams as far as I know. They’ll grind down the cam profile and then make up for the missing clearance on the rockers.

I don’t know if I’d trust an $85 or so hard weld, frankly.


-Ed
1972 CL350
 
Ribrickulous said:
Delta usually doesn’t weld cams as far as I know. They’ll grind down the cam profile and then make up for the missing clearance on the rockers.

I don’t know if I’d trust an $85 or so hard weld, frankly.



-Ed
1972 CL350
Click to expand...

Well, now you have me concerned. I know from others post on this forum they use to do good work for a very reasonable price. I also know there are posts on here about problems after the previous owner was bought out. The work they did on my cam looks good. I am going to recheck the cam lobe nose at the centerline of the cam nose and the base circle centerline with a micrometer. I hope everything else falls into place. They did weld my rockers. Is there a way to check for proper repair other than installing them and checking contact on the cam lobe when the valves are under spring pressure and are fully open?
thanks, Jetmech
 
I don’t know of a way to check other than getting it all set up.

My experience with delta has been 50/50. They got it right once, and failed miserably once (couldn’t rotate the pin to a point where the rocker made clearance, let along make contact with the valve).

When I told them about the issue they offered to weld the rockers with additional meat to make up the difference. I don’t think they’re setup to weld cams.

The difference in price between Delta and a shop setup for hard welding work (Web or Megacycle) is huge. The only other economical option is to find a spare/junk engine or top end near you and grab the cam out of it.

I’ve been running with a junk engine cam that looked better than any of the cams on eBay from an engine I bought for $100. Give or take 3,000 miles and it’s going strong.


-Ed
1972 CL350
 
Ribrickulous said:
I don’t know of a way to check other than getting it all set up.

My experience with delta has been 50/50. They got it right once, and failed miserably once (couldn’t rotate the pin to a point where the rocker made clearance, let along make contact with the valve).

When I told them about the issue they offered to weld the rockers with additional meat to make up the difference. I don’t think they’re setup to weld cams.

The difference in price between Delta and a shop setup for hard welding work (Web or Megacycle) is huge. The only other economical option is to find a spare/junk engine or top end near you and grab the cam out of it.

I’ve been running with a junk engine cam that looked better than any of the cams on eBay from an engine I bought for $100. Give or take 3,000 miles and it’s going strong.


-Ed
1972 CL350
Click to expand...
yeah, I guess I will set it up and check the valve lash before I install the motor back in the bike. I have already invested allot in the bike, so if I need to buy a megacycle cam I will. I am in no hurry.

Thanks for your input,
jetmech
 
Jetmech said:
...so if I need to buy a megacycle cam I will. I am in no hurry.
Click to expand...

I can tell you from experience that you'll be paying them to weld up and regrind your cam. They used to have these cams on the shelf back when these bikes were current models, but now they just rework the cams people send to them. It's not like they don't do a good job, but their prices are very high - although pretty much everyone else who does the same thing they do are just as expensive. For my experiences, the defining factor in doing business with them was having to deal with Megacycle's owner's wife who seems to run the show. You can't talk to Jim, the owner, without going through her... and it can be a very unpleasant experience unless everything is nicey-nicey. I had my first set of cams done by them for my 450, and there was debris inside the exhaust cam when they returned the pair, clean and all lubed up with light oil seemingly ready for installation. I had an oil flow problem that caused me some parts damage and during the process I discovered the debris stuck inside the exhaust cam very near an oiling orifice, so I called them and tried to explain it to his wife. I was met with defensive browbeating like you'd never expect from someone you just paid over $500 to for their work, and was told that I should have washed the cams before installing them despite the appearance of the cams being super clean and light oiled as if ready to install. As it turned out, my oiling issue was caused by something I did... but that doesn't excuse the debris inside the cam nor the serious case of attitude I got when inquiring about it.
 
ancientdad said:
I can tell you from experience that you'll be paying them to weld up and regrind your cam. They used to have these cams on the shelf back when these bikes were current models, but now they just rework the cams people send to them. It's not like they don't do a good job, but their prices are very high - although pretty much everyone else who does the same thing they do are just as expensive. For my experiences, the defining factor in doing business with them was having to deal with Megacycle's owner's wife who seems to run the show. You can't talk to Jim, the owner, without going through her... and it can be a very unpleasant experience unless everything is nicey-nicey. I had my first set of cams done by them for my 450, and there was debris inside the exhaust cam when they returned the pair, clean and all lubed up with light oil seemingly ready for installation. I had an oil flow problem that caused me some parts damage and during the process I discovered the debris stuck inside the exhaust cam very near an oiling orifice, so I called them and tried to explain it to his wife. I was met with defensive browbeating like you'd never expect from someone you just paid over $500 to for their work, and was told that I should have washed the cams before installing them despite the appearance of the cams being super clean and light oiled as if ready to install. As it turned out, my oiling issue was caused by something I did... but that doesn't excuse the debris inside the cam nor the serious case of attitude I got when inquiring about it.
Click to expand...

Don’t see how they stay in business with that kind of customer support, I would definitely sling some attitude back in that case.
thanks,
Jetmech
 
They have done some excellent work over the decades and established themselves as the leader in quality camshafts for Hondas back during the current run of these bikes and the couple decades that followed while technology was still basically the same and many racers were using their cams right off the shelf, and along the way they picked up a few big names in car drag racing, Jason Line and Greg Anderson a couple of which I'm aware (NHRA Pro Stock). But you know those guys and any big-spending regular customer would get much nicer phone exchanges than someone like you or me
 
ancientdad said:
They have done some excellent work over the decades and established themselves as the leader in quality camshafts for Hondas back during the current run of these bikes and the couple decades that followed while technology was still basically the same and many racers were using their cams right off the shelf, and along the way they picked up a few big names in car drag racing, Jason Line and Greg Anderson a couple of which I'm aware (NHRA Pro Stock). But you know those guys and any big-spending regular customer would get much nicer phone exchanges than someone like you or me
Click to expand...

yes, but there’s no accuse for the shaming, especially from someone who probably don’t have much of a clue, especially for what the repair cost you.
jetmech
 
Jetmech said:
yes, but there’s no accuse for the shaming, especially from someone who probably don’t have much of a clue, especially for what the repair cost you.
jetmech
Click to expand...

Agreed, but there's no one to tell except her husband and once I got to talk to him I wasn't going to piss him off as I wanted answers and advice. Situations like that leave me with zero desire to ever do business with a company afterward, and thankfully I won't ever have to.
 
ancientdad said:
Agreed, but there's no one to tell except her husband and once I got to talk to him I wasn't going to piss him off as I wanted answers and advice. Situations like that leave me with zero desire to ever do business with a company afterward, and thankfully I won't ever have to.
Click to expand...

I agree.
jetmech
 
FWIW, I had a great experience with Web. I think they’re a similar price point.

Note, if you want the rockers hard welded by them, you will have to pay an arm, a leg, and mortgage your eldest child’s appendages as well. I think it’s like $75 an arm.

I’m about to send mine out to rocker arms unlimited, who charge about $25 an arm. I took measurements of the total play with the pin at 12’o clock, they were mostly .032” +\- .002”, with one at ~.055”

I don’t know if they’re going to do anything with that information, but I could already hit the lash with the existing arms, just sending them to get a hard weld to mate with the Web cam hardweld.

I’m rambling about my bike, but I hope this is helpful for yours.


-Ed
1972 CL350
 
Ribrickulous said:
FWIW, I had a great experience with Web. I think they’re a similar price point.

Note, if you want the rockers hard welded by them, you will have to pay an arm, a leg, and mortgage your eldest child’s appendages as well. I think it’s like $75 an arm.

I’m about to send mine out to rocker arms unlimited, who charge about $25 an arm. I took measurements of the total play with the pin at 12’o clock, they were mostly .032” +\- .002”, with one at ~.055”

I don’t know if they’re going to do anything with that information, but I could already hit the lash with the existing arms, just sending them to get a hard weld to mate with the Web cam hardweld.

I’m rambling about my bike, but I hope this is helpful for yours.


-Ed
1972 CL350
Click to expand...

We love our 45-50 year bikes, but dang! The repairs and up-keep are pretty hefty. I guess it’s the cost of owning one of these vintage bikes. Thanks for the info.
jetmech
 
It’s a measure of what’s acceptable to each person.

You hear stories about these bikes coming out of a barn and kicking over with some fresh gas and happy thoughts.

Are those the bikes you want to take on 1,000 mile road trips? Probably not, but they’re fun to rip around town on.


-Ed
1972 CL350
 
Jetmech said:
We love our 45-50 year bikes, but dang! The repairs and up-keep are pretty hefty. I guess it’s the cost of owning one of these vintage bikes. Thanks for the info.
jetmech
Click to expand...
A lot of the costs we all incur at the beginning is correcting previous mistakes and getting everything working correctly. Once the bike is back in shape the costs drop significantly to oil, plugs, etc.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
A lot of the costs we all incur at the beginning is correcting previous mistakes and getting everything working correctly. Once the bike is back in shape the costs drop significantly to oil, plugs, etc.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I still have a way to go on mine. A end top job, a little carb tweaking, and some new fork seals and mine should last while. My bike is a short distance rider, and for swapping lies with my buddies.
jetmech
 
Ribrickulous said:
FWIW, I had a great experience with Web. I think they’re a similar price point.

Note, if you want the rockers hard welded by them, you will have to pay an arm, a leg, and mortgage your eldest child’s appendages as well. I think it’s like $75 an arm.

I’m about to send mine out to rocker arms unlimited, who charge about $25 an arm. I took measurements of the total play with the pin at 12’o clock, they were mostly .032” +\- .002”, with one at ~.055”

I don’t know if they’re going to do anything with that information, but I could already hit the lash with the existing arms, just sending them to get a hard weld to mate with the Web cam hardweld.

I’m rambling about my bike, but I hope this is helpful for yours.


-Ed
1972 CL350
Click to expand...

re-measured the cam lobes, and bearing journals today with micrometers.
1. both bearings journals measured 0.0864”
2. lobes height measured from 1.449-1.551 (two were slightly low, but they should work)
Not sure how to measure the open and close ramps, hopefully are okay
Ed, the shims you sent me fit the left side of the cam shaft perfectly.
thanks again for everyone’s help and advice. Hope to do the top end refresh this fall.
jetmech
 
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