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cl350 engine strip down, over heating issue

saxby

saxby

Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2020
Total Posts
35
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0
Location
yorkshire
Have been advised to do a log of my engine strip down.At this point it worth some back story.
I have had a lot of problems setting this bike up since I have got it as a non runner .
One of the things was setting up the carbs .. now I'm thinking one of the problems I had was the engine .
when starting up it was fine . 10 min in to balancing carbs I had issues and taught it was either me or the carbs
After getting every thing close to perfect I took it out . 2 miles latter I it limped home and I could tell it was hotter then it should be ...
So .the strip down .


I had a suspicion that the top end wasn't getting any oil. Removing the left hand side head , showed some scoring both to the cam, and the LHS head.
11.jpg22.jpg

IMG_20200814_172448.jpg
Working my way down as you can see from the cam, it's showing signs of heat damage .
throw to the head and barrels it's clear some one has been in here before
IMG_20200815_160601.jpgIMG_20200815_155636.jpgIMG_20200815_163210.jpg



Gasket selent was blocking up mostly the RHS of the oil pathways . But also one on the left.
And also one of those little little rubber things that holds the cam chain tensioner in place was missing .( Was ok thow excess gasket selent was holding it in place )

IMG_20200815_202357.jpg

At this point it made sense to strip down the bottom end as well and this is what I have found any advise is welcome

The good bits..


From what I can tell the bearings and the tolerances in the crank are fine.

Every thing has a clean amount of oil were you should expect. As is the 2

sets of gearing and the rollers on the end . I haven't striped any of them

down. Just had a good look in my hand . Not sure if there is any need to do

so ? There is no sign of heat damage , excess play, issues with

the roller bearings.And the kick starter shaft is still in place . There w

as a little play it in . But wasn't leeking before the strip down

The bad.Some one has put some centre marks in the casing . More on

the bottom aiming inwards so I Imagen some one has had some issues with the rubber seal (photos )
IMG_20200821_175519.jpgIMG_20200821_174047.jpgIMG_20200821_170716_1.jpg
the seal it self has damage and although it wasn't leaking I think I best find a new one .After an
epic battle removing the 2 bolts on the oils tray and a waste of my time ,
realising after that I can't remove it . I can't really get at
the sludge beneath.=I have it up at just over 90' and the sludge is slowly flowing out.
Hopefully overnight most will be out . And maybe I will
have my missing rubber cam pice as well. But I think I will have to re make that one .

All ports seem clear . And I think with some gentle sand papering skills I

can remove the worst of the highs from the centre punch marks .before the rebuild .
For cleaning up . Am I best to try and jet wash under the oil pan then put some de greeser in a tub and take my time with it .
Drying it all out and then applying some wd40 to try and stop any flash rusting?
And also any ideas what these seeles are for in my gasket set ?
IMG_20200821_175440.jpg
any thing I should have a closer look at ?
Thanks in advance
 
The tensioner plugs are available from Honda https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/14607-286-000?ref=c8e418e6bf939bc3df80e0cdaefedae122191f40 so use those.
Considering everything I'm see in the pictures you need to completely and thoroughly clean and inspect every little piece one by one.
The windage tray will come out, simply grind off the 3 smashed rivet pieces then drill and tap for 6mm bolts or screws. As well as you can clean with it in place you will be surprised by how much is still left, caked in place.
I thought my transmission was OK until I did a close inspection of the bearings and ended up replacing both shafts for damage on the small bearing surfaces of the shafts.
The damage on the seal surface can be repaired by thorough cleaning and the using an epoxy like JB Weld. You will want to wipe it on so it fills the divots but isn't on the good sections. Then sand any high spots off. When the new seal is put in add a coat of Honda Bond to the outer surface to seal it in the case, that also serves to keep that seal from blowing out in the future as they are known to do.
It's a real shame a butcher worked on this engine.
 
Used a whole tube of silicone sealer on the poor thing,didn't he? That explains why the top end was starved for oil, excess sealer plugged up the oil galleys. Those small seals in the picture are valve stem seals.
 
You said you purchased it as a NON-RUNNER.
That motor was toast before you owned it.
It can be salvaged but you have some work ahead of you.
 
So far I have taken the 2 gear shafts parts . Every thing looks good even the sides of the gears were they meet . Years ago I took a ntv650 engine apart as it had a gear isue . And it was there I had problems. Also had 96k on the clock and this one has 10k. Any way .
The surfaces for the looks ok allover .
The little ball baiting that fits in the case just after the oil pump felt a little stuck . With the oil it was just a stiff fit .
It's not made out of steel. And is more of a plastic and has slight makings in it as were it's been in contact in the slot caseing. Major issue do you think.
And looking at replacing the rest of the seels while I'm in there as well.. no signs of leeking . But what's your thoughts ?

Will they just pop out . Or will I need some sort of pressto get the new ones in there .
 
That hard plastic ball basically seals a drilling passage that's capped by the crankshaft bearing. It never achieves a perfect seal just by the design of it so as long as it doesn't just fall out when the case is inverted it will be fine.
 
Ordered a set of oil seels while I'm in there .
With a garden sprayer I have managed to get under the plate .
(Not the best photo .) But after clearing it out and then putting some white sprit it seems good enouth .
Resizer_15987189987359.jpg
Clearing out the crud I got called away on a call out. So have the old gold seelent to remove and all old gaskets to clear . But having a hard time cleaning the case .
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The inside seems ok thow . Heated up the oil pan after . And sprayed with gt85 to get rid of any water . Did it on all steel parts to stop any flash corrosion.
Resizer_159871899873511.jpg
All in all its took a mixture of swarfiga and scrubing with toothbrush to get it to this stage . Would like to have the case outer mint but , any ideas on how o get there . I don't have any sand blasting gear and don't want to damage any of the faces
Resizer_159871899873515.jpgResizer_159871899873513.jpg
But is this good enouth do you think ?
Resizer_15987189987351.jpgResizer_15987189987357.jpg
 
Quite the improvement. Other than a few gasket flecks here and there, things look clean enough. Lots of effort expended removing decades of grime and neglect.
 
Can't think of anouther way with out using power tools and risking damaging the faces..
thaught I would take the worst one one on first . Would be nice to have a perfect case like people have when doing your tube videos . But to be honest .. I don't really clean the bikes I have . Maintain, and ride them when I have time . So it wouldn't stay mint any way ??????
 
I was just speaking to the gasket surfaces... if there are any remaining tiny pieces of gasket material on them, it can cause seepage.
 
The 2 things you're after is the interior of the case being really clean and the gasket surfaces clean. Looks like you've succeeded with the interior.
I would remove the bolts and dowel pins from the case. Then using a piece of 1x2 oak with 600 or higher sandpaper attached to it lightly sand the gasket surfaces, stapling the sandpaper on the ends or top works for attachment. The wood should be at least 8" long and you work the entire surface in one direction before reversing, clean the surface off every 4 strokes to evaluate. Don't focus on any one spot, do the entire surface you're trying to clean up each stroke. Don't apply much pressure either.
 
Bar keepers Friend in the liquid bottle works quite well. Put it on and let it sit then scrub with brass brushes. I've also been experimenting with Simple Green BBQ and Grill Cleaner in aerosol can.
 
you can get little gasket scrapers that have a hard plastic edge, they are OK and work decent. I've had decent luck prepping mating surfaces with a basic gasket scraper andd then with Marvel Mystery oil and a green scotch bright pad - then clean the oil off with paint thinner or a solvent and a nylon brush, which also cleans up the surface more. depending on what is there it can take more than a few passes to get the surfaces prepped correctly.
 
All being well with the post I think I should have all I need to rebuild on the weekend.
A few more questions if I may
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How important are these sticking out bits ?
I as because there clearly on the engine diagram . But there a bit bummed up . Would it hurt if I removed the lot ? I'm guessing there important . As they wouldn't be there if there not .
On the last cl350 top end re build there was only the one . And I didn't check the diagram. So removed it .
And also what do you think to homeing out the cylender walls?
The preshure on both cylenders was both fine before I started. And will install the original piston rings . But they will have rotated some what . My dad says with some light sanding and with out going nuts that should be enouth to remove the glaze on the steel cylender wall.
Or should I take it in some ware to get it properly done ?
 
If you are not replacing the rings I wouldn't do anything to the cylinders except make sure they are clean and lightly oiled. All rings rotate when the engine is running so just staggering them at install is the best you can do.

Don't worry about the lump of blue on the studs or try to replace it.
 
Do you know what purpose they have ? As I said the last cl350 engine I did now has none of them in :sorry:
 
I don't believe anyone has come up with a definitive answer. The early engines didn't have them so it could be for manufacturing purposes. It doesn't make a difference to performance or longevity of the engine from my experience. If there is loose material clean it off but otherwise ignore it.
 
Yeah, it's an odd thing as the engine oil doesn't pass through the front studs and for it to be involved in some type of vibration damping would be strange too. I always wondered but never knew for sure
 
IMG_0240.jpg
When I wanted to clean external aluminum engine parts, I used oven cleaner and hot water. It does a good job of getting rid of all the crud and most blemishes, but won't get aluminum surfaces spotless like blasting or vapor honing. It's cheap and easy, just make sure you wear gloves and eye protection!
 
Best guess I have for the rubbers is a vibration isolation. Possibly Honda found an issue of harmonic vibration causing the stud to fracture or there was some sort of sound. These came about around the same time we got the EPA, est. 1970, involved in noise pollution and vehicles. Mufflers had to be quieter, engine noise was regulated, etc.
 
Getting closer to the finial part with all the bottom end back toghere, just cleaning the old head gasket and also the new replacement parts .
Going back to the valve seels I got with my new gasket set (4 off) and there is also 2 more that look simmiler but Keith out the spring in them .
The old head didn't have them and there not listed in manual.
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needed ? I assume they go like this .
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Not sure were the 2 outhers go .. there just a small tube of hollow rubber, about the same 10mm diameter
 
You don't use either the valve seals or the small band seals on your engine. Throw them away. You will seize the valves if you use the valve seals.
 
saxby said:
Fair enouth .wasn't sure how well they would hold up
Click to expand...

You have to have valve guides that have a machined notch for the valve seals. A few companies make them. I like Shumann's. He sells on Ebay. If your guides measure in spec, most do unless the engine was really thrashed, or you're racing I would just stick with the stock Iron guides.
 
If you can see obvious cross hatching on the cylinder I would not touch it, but if it is smoothed out, a very light scuffing with a green scotch bright can help it work better IMHO, and the cylinder walls will hold oil a touch better - and it will last longer. I've done this when using pistons and rings again, and had good luck. I think the first time I did this because the cylinders I was working with flash rusted, but since it worked now I more or less do it as practice.
 
Ok. The bike is back toghere and running . Kind of.
Compression on both cylenders came up 120psi. But to be fair the battery was not good -flat . But the bike started on the third kick witch I was pleased about . I set the
Cam chain tension .
Valve clearances
Point set ups. But the bike is not smoothly ticking over .
I found it hard to get the LHS point to set up. Althow the points are only a year old . I was playing around with it a lot to get my tester to light up .It looks like it's fine now . But I can re check.
And also the feeler gauge on the valves...
I'm checking with a very slight amount of grip on the valves . But from what I can see you could have it a fair bit more before it's a firm fit. A lot of adjustment given the sizes of the feeler gauges are so small. I set it up with one size over what the manual says for the intake and exhaust .
But I can make ajustments there.

And then there is the carbs.
They were clean before I took them off. And I drained them and put them in a plastic bag.
Haven't adjusted anything on them , so I'm asuming there fine .
But it's something I can check
Realy didn't want to have to open the engine up . And all the tooth brush scrubing to the engine , but it's done now and I didn't mind it to be honest. And at least I have oil to the top end( can't see a way of checking the right hand side . ) So that's good.
And thanks for all your help guys. Gave me a lot more confidence, that althow I'm alone doing a first for me . In not realy , between everyone there is years of knolage and experience there to help
 
Just a note about Feeler Gauges for the Valves.
The OEM Tool Kit came with (2) Feeler Gauges for setting the Valves.
They were both the same thickness and were used single for the Intake and Stacked for the Exhaust.
BUT the Major Difference with them and what you can buy off the shelf is the WIDTH was Half of the multi Blade Gauge sets sold today.
Motion Pro sells a REALLY nice Gauge they come in difference thickness
Here is a link to the .002-.003 one. I have them in both the .002-.003 and .004-.005 sizes
https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0392
They are 1/2 the width of the multi blade ones and have the correct angle for access built-in.
 
I have a large multi set. On "common motor" he recomended using the next size up on both . So I removed them from the set and use them louse. How tight, snug , or louse should I make them then ? . A better set would be nice . But I don't have much of a problem getting them in to see they need to be . Just as I turn the valve tighter or louser . There is a band that I would call it just tuching a little. And a good tight fit . (But I can still slide the gauge about with out to much resistance,)
and of course everything in-between. .
Were is the sweet spot ?
I don't think it's making the bike running lumpy. But I would like it to be right either way
 
saxby said:
On "common motor" he recomended using the next size up on both
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this is the kind of misinformation that Common Motor has been offering people for a long time now, basically backyard approaches to tuning vintage Hondas because HE does it that way and he thinks it's okay to disagree with the manual created by the manufacturer of the motorcycle. Follow your FSM (and if you don't have one, you can get it from our library here) and do as Honda says it should be done.
 
Ok so I checked the points and also re did the valve clearances again ( not a lot in it companies to before ) with both the feeler gauge in the intake and the out take . So there is the same resistance .
And also set the carbs up. One step at a time . . And the bike is running not right . But the best it ever has been.
After doing about 15 miles on it ( around, and around the block as I still didn't want to trust going to far)
I am happy with the way the bike is in general . I haven't ridden anything this old and with a drum brake I was expecting to to work worse then it does.
But it's still not 100% have done a vid and put it on you tube
https://youtu.be/eATpgIxqh2I
The clip was done after I went out on it . I turned down both the idle screws a little as when warm it was running at about 1.7k
When settin up the carbs one at a time . The right hand side was fine . But the slight bounce you can see on the needle gauge , is being caused by some thing on the left hand side
And also when reving the bike it takes a while for the revs to drop . Or at least I think so . Not sure if you can tell from the vid?
Is this normal
And also there is the tapping sound. I can't tell witch side. As it seems even . Is that normal ? Of have I set the valve clearance a little to louse or tight .

Most of this might be normal stuff for bikes of This age. And maybe it's fine . But most of my bikes have been late 90's bikes .
So I thaught a vid might show what I have ..

The tick over is a little
 
Some valve ticking is normal and desired, means the valves aren't too tight. Cam chain does make some noise as well. Videos don't do well for sounds in most cases so I would get together with someone that is used to working with the older Hondas and get their opinions. When I was deaf I rode by my local dealer periodically to have them take a listen and now that I can hear again I've done the same thing because the sounds are so different than they used to be.
 
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