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Thread: Oil Leak After Rebuild Questions

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Oil Leak After Rebuild Questions

    So I just got around to firing up this 350 I just rebuilt and have an oil leak...yeah it sucks but I guess **** happens..
    anyway, the right side cam bearing cover gasket seems to be leaking to me...its a pretty good drip and I'm not exactly sure where else it could be coming from... I attached a few pics, they aren't that clear but was wondering what you all thought.
    Anyway, if its that cam cover gasket what would be the procedure to repair it?
    I'm thinking i should "basically" be able to remove the cam chain tensioner, loosen the rockers to the - on the outer edges and remove that cover without disturbing anything else.. but not entirely sure so i figured id ask
    what are you guys thinking the procedure would be to replace that?
    thanks

    20221121_160440.jpg 20221121_161127.jpg 20221121_161134.jpg
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
    1971 Honda CB175 K4
    2022 Piaggio Liberty S150
    2007 Kymco People 150


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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    It's possible you put the gasket on backwards, IIRC there's an oil passage that is left uncovered if the gasket is flipped but it still seems to fit correctly. If you loosen the valve adjusters on that side and turn the engine to 90° past LT before you remove the cam bearing to flip the gasket, you should be fine.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Thanks for the quick reply! I'm still trying to get a grip on the procedure so bare with me.
    So I should loosen the valve adjusters first? should I loosen all 4 of the adjusters or just the 2 on the right? what about the cam chain tensioner?
    Thanks
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    Just make sure to not lose a tooth on the cam chain when you do that.

    The cover should slip off with very little resistance, but also make sure that the rocker pins stay in the valve cover and don’t come off with the end cap when you pull the end cap.


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    PS - the hole in the gasket should go towards the front of the engine, just checked my build thread for confirmation.

    It’s easy to mix it up.


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scootman View Post
    Thanks for the quick reply! I'm still trying to get a grip on the procedure so bare with me.
    So I should loosen the valve adjusters first? should I loosen all 4 of the adjusters or just the 2 on the right? what about the cam chain tensioner?
    Thanks
    And yes, loosen all four so they’re pointing to 12 o clock.

    Set the crankshaft to 90 past LT as if you were setting the tensioner.

    The tensioner itself can be pulled entirely. At this point you’ll have no pressure on the cam or the chain, so the end caps come off easy.

    Support the cam once the end cap is partially out so it doesn’t drop quickly and rattle the chain, which could cause you to skip a tooth on the crank (less likely) or the cam (more likely).

    You can remove the points and advancer from the left side and mark the position of the pin on the end of the camshaft - it should be pointed directly up at LT (which you’ll be 90 degrees of crank rotation, or 45 of cam rotation, past).

    Use a magazine or something soft jammed under the cam to keep it from falling while you flip the gasket.


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    And to add to that, if the cam chain has not been replaced during the recent top end work you probably don't need to pull the tensioner. Once you get the crankshaft set to 90° past LT (I believe on left cylinder compression stroke) and the valve adjuster all pointing toward 12 o'clock, there should be little tension on the camshaft. Absolutely be careful to not pull the rocker arm shafts out when the cam bearing comes off, then just flip the gasket and reassemble. DO NOT, for any reason, try to turn the engine at all once the cam bearing is off, wait until you put it back on.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the tips! As you guys suspected, I did indeed have that gasket on backwards... see pic
    So, I went ahead and followed those steps and did remove the tensioner, but as I was doing it I realized I probably didnt need to.
    Anyway, onto the reassembly, at this point I'm going to reinstall the tensioner, set the tension, then adjust my valves accordingly. sound right?
    thanks for getting me along so quickly here!
    20221121_190619.jpg
    Last edited by ancientdad; 11.21.22 at 8:53 PM.
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
    1971 Honda CB175 K4
    2022 Piaggio Liberty S150
    2007 Kymco People 150


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    Quote Originally Posted by Scootman View Post
    ...at this point I'm going to reinstall the tensioner, set the tension, then adjust my valves accordingly. sound right?
    All sounds fine as long as the cam bearing is reinstalled first...
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientdad View Post
    All sounds fine as long as the cam bearing is reinstalled first...
    I guess I did omit that I had it all back together. lol
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
    1971 Honda CB175 K4
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    2007 Kymco People 150


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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scootman View Post
    I guess I did omit that I had it all back together. lol
    Just being cautious... when all you can offer is a description, there's no guarantee the full translation comes through. Hopefully that's the only glitch you'll encounter and you'll be on your way.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientdad View Post
    Just being cautious... when all you can offer is a description, there's no guarantee the full translation comes through. Hopefully that's the only glitch you'll encounter and you'll be on your way.
    Well the description you guys gave were very clear, I was able to pull off that cam bearing, flip that gasket around, and reinstall the cam bearing in just a small amount of time. I then reset the cam chain tensioner and called it a night. Today I'll readjust the valves, set points and give her a go!
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
    1971 Honda CB175 K4
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    Last question - what kind of oil are you running?

    It looks… red?


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribrickulous View Post
    Last question - what kind of oil are you running?

    It looks… red?


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    I'm guessing that's leftover assembly lube
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientdad View Post
    I'm guessing that's leftover assembly lube
    That's a relief ! I was thinking Red Hermetite ...
    1972 CL175K7
    1970 CB174K4, 'upgraded' to a K6 alike
    1971 SL175, with a few non standard parts !
    1998 CB600 Hornet

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    The red is still some assembly lube. No hermetite there, just on the base gasket. I'm thinking it will probably linger for a while til it all works off. But I am running Rotella 15-40 with a zinc additive for the break in.
    I was able to fire it up again last night and the leak is gone... just some smoke burning off the residual oil that I couldn't wipe off.

    Now, on to the next issue... the starter clutch...it's squealing and squeaking, or could it be the starter? Can I pull my left side cover off without losing too much oil? it seems to be as low as the stator cover and I would assume no more oil should come out than if I removed the stator cover.
    Thanks again
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    When you pull the large alternator (left crankcase) cover you will lose more oil than just the 3 screw timing cover, so I'd plan on a block of wood under the left centerstand leg or just drain the oil into something clean so you can re-use it. I'm surprised you didn't check the starter clutch when the engine was out, it would have been the perfect time. It's not likely the starter itself, the clutch is the typical culprit when you hear squealing/clattering/nuts and bolts in a can sounds, and you'll want to replace the springs, caps and rollers, inspect the surface of the large sprocket where the rollers ride for chatter marks and/or wear as well as the outer housing of the clutch assembly for cracks. To do the latter you have to remove the three #3 JIS screws from the outer housing on the back of the alternator rotor.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Information here relevant to the 350 ?

    Starter clutch rebuild (vintagehondatwins.com)
    1972 CL175K7
    1970 CB174K4, 'upgraded' to a K6 alike
    1971 SL175, with a few non standard parts !
    1998 CB600 Hornet

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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pitman View Post
    Information here relevant to the 350 ?

    Starter clutch rebuild (vintagehondatwins.com)
    Absolutely, and thanks Richard because it saves me some typing. They're basically all the same.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientdad View Post
    When you pull the large alternator (left crankcase) cover you will lose more oil than just the 3 screw timing cover, so I'd plan on a block of wood under the left centerstand leg or just drain the oil into something clean so you can re-use it. I'm surprised you didn't check the starter clutch when the engine was out, it would have been the perfect time. It's not likely the starter itself, the clutch is the typical culprit when you hear squealing/clattering/nuts and bolts in a can sounds, and you'll want to replace the springs, caps and rollers, inspect the surface of the large sprocket where the rollers ride for chatter marks and/or wear as well as the outer housing of the clutch assembly for cracks. To do the latter you have to remove the three #3 JIS screws from the outer housing on the back of the alternator rotor.
    I'm surprised I didn't check it too. I did spin it and it grabbed and released when turned the opposite way so I assumed it was ok. I was hoping I wouldn't lose too much oil but I guess I can wait to change that starter clutch til I finish buttoning up some of the other issues. Mainly these mikuni aftermarket carbs that came with the bike. They are new so I want to see if I can get them to work but I'm having issues right out of the gate! Also, it's getting cold up here in NY and trying to tune carbs in 35 degrees isn't ideal! LOL I might just ditch them for a set of stock carbs.. I also got a set of stock carbs with the bike but they are so beat up I'm not sure if they can be repaired. There's a guy on ebay selling some rebuilt ones.. would any of our members be that guy?? anyway, thanks for the input.
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    1971 Honda CB175 K4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scootman View Post
    I'm surprised I didn't check it too. I did spin it and it grabbed and released when turned the opposite way so I assumed it was ok. I was hoping I wouldn't lose too much oil but I guess I can wait to change that starter clutch til I finish buttoning up some of the other issues.
    The only concern for putting off a starter clutch repair can be seen in Richard's thread. When he removed the outer housing to check it for cracks as I suggested, he discovered that the screws had been loose for a while and caused a lot of wear on the holes and the locating/support pin. If the parts are already loose on the rotor, using it with it slipping and running the engine for a while that way can lead to excess wear.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientdad View Post
    The only concern for putting off a starter clutch repair can be seen in Richard's thread. When he removed the outer housing to check it for cracks as I suggested, he discovered that the screws had been loose for a while and caused a lot of wear on the holes and the locating/support pin. If the parts are already loose on the rotor, using it with it slipping and running the engine for a while that way can lead to excess wear.
    Well, I have too much time and money invested, guess I'll be pulling it sooner then later. Thanks again!
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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    well I just stumbled onto another issue with this engine... It's not shifting very easily and actually, it's now stuck in first. I dont have a chain on it so I cant rock it to try and get it to move. So I looked at some pics I took when I assembled it and I dont see anything wrong, however I'm thinking that shift drum spring and ball at the top of the engine might have something to do with it maybe?? Can I take that out and see if it loosens any pressure that might be holding it from shifting?
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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scootman View Post
    well I just stumbled onto another issue with this engine... It's not shifting very easily and actually, it's now stuck in first. I dont have a chain on it so I cant rock it to try and get it to move. So I looked at some pics I took when I assembled it and I dont see anything wrong, however I'm thinking that shift drum spring and ball at the top of the engine might have something to do with it maybe?? Can I take that out and see if it loosens any pressure that might be holding it from shifting?
    Ed (VHT member Ribrickulous) just went through something similar so maybe this part of his thread will help

    https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/fo...ll=1#post63362
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    Sure did, and I hope it’s not a similar issue. I’m still flabbergasted that I went through what I went through, basically re-machining new parts with more tolerance.

    A few things to check before pulling your hair out:

    - Make sure you’re spinning the countershaft (where the output sprocket is) as well as the mainshaft (back of the clutch basket) when cycling through gears. Our old sequential transmissions need both shafts moving to shift.

    - There should be a small steel ball, identical to the one between the clutch rod and the lifter, underneath the stopper in the upper crankcase, make sure it’s there. The order should be stopper-spring-ball. The ball sits in the detent in the shift drum to index neutral in.

    - The torque spec for the stopper is a German one, “Gutentight”, no need to crank down too hard or you’ll bind things up.

    - Same with the bolt that the gear shift indexer sits on (the one behind the clutch basket that catches the spring in the upper crankcase). Should be tight but not so wildly tight you’re on the verge of stripping threads.

    That’s all that comes to mind right now, but ask around if you keep running into trouble. My notifications aren’t working, so it might be a bit before I respond. Stupid Tapatalk…


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Hey Ed

    I read through your entire post and it definitely seems like we have similar issues. But, I remember going through all my gears before I closed it up, everything was shifting smoothly. And like you mentioned, everything needs to turn while shifting. One thing I am missing though, is the o-ring that goes on the guide screw, that is like 2mm thick, so maybe there's too much tension with it tightened without it?? because I was able to coax it to shift when I loosened it.. but it still doesn't seem right, very stiff and clunky, but maybe its because it's not turning? idk I snapped a few pics before I closed it up ... maybe a trained eye can see something I may have missed

    trans1.jpg trans2.jpg trans3.jpg
    Last edited by ancientdad; 11.24.22 at 9:27 AM.
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    I had to rotate your pictures, I just can't get much out of some pics when they're sideways but overall things look okay. I suspect you probably did it right, but in the second picture I don't see the locating pins and set rings for the transmission shaft bearings to engage into. If they are not there the shafts wouldn't be properly aligned and it could cause some binding.

    trans2.jpg
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    Oil Leak After Rebuild Questions

    I think I see the set rings in the first image but Scoot should confirm.

    When everything is tightened down under the left side cover, how “free” is that shift stopper mechanism? Can you, with your hands, shift it left to right off of the shift star?

    For me that stand-off spaced that sees the M6 bolt through it was so worn down that I was tightening the bolt and washer right up against it, binding it.

    So I made a new one with about .010 more stand-off on it.

    Also note that #19 is a specific washer. I haven’t figured out why, but it seems to matter.

    Also, confirm that the order is correct. It should be from the crankcase towards you:

    -Spacer
    -Shift drum guide stopper
    -Washer
    -M6 bolt





    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    I thought I saw them in the first picture too but since I wasn't sure I couldn't assume.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ribrickulous View Post
    For me that stand-off spaced that sees the M6 bolt through it was so worn down that I was tightening the bolt and washer right up against it, binding it.

    So I made a new one with about .010 more stand-off on it.
    That was my first thought as well, knowing what you encountered. That's another picture that should be more up-close to be certain.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    Oh, and yes - add the o-ring, avoid temptation to torque the drum stopper on top of the crankcase down to 5,000 Ft-lbs.

    That really would make it more difficult to get out of neutral.

    Any o ring that fits works up there, doesn’t need to be the one from Honda.


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    hey, thanks for the replies,
    I can confirm that all the locating pins and set rings are in place. I found an o-ring for the guide screw and still no difference in the way the shifter behaves.
    I'm going to have to pull that side cover off and see what's going on... I'm able to coax the drum into first gear with the screw by the neutral switch and it turns quite smoothly, but when I use just the shifter it doesn't want to move. I'm thinking something must be going on with the shifter spindle or the return spring on it, IIRC I got that shifter off ebay thinking it was the same...perhaps they are not interchangeable?
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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    I don’t think there were many if any changes to the gearshift mechanism inside the engine along the way (speaking just about the splined shaft to the piece that interacts with the drum).

    This is a CB or CL?

    Are you sure the shift pedal is set appropriately and isn’t hitting a CB pipe on its way down?

    These are frustrating issues to solve but the good news is it’s more than likely not inside the cases. There isn’t too much that goes wrong in there on assembly aside from what AD mentioned.


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    It's a CB, Yes, I did verify that the shift pedal is not hitting the pipe etc... I even took the shifter off and used a short shifter (less the linkage) to try and eliminate all the "play" the linkage might have added with no luck. Hopefully I'll figure out once I remove the cover and get in there. Glad to hear there is good news and probably wont have to split the case. fingers crossed!
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
    1971 Honda CB175 K4
    2022 Piaggio Liberty S150
    2007 Kymco People 150


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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scootman View Post
    hey, thanks for the replies,
    but when I use just the shifter it doesn't want to move.
    Just re-read this... last silly q/comment. We're sure the clutch is properly adjusted and disengaging the transmission from the engine? Longshot, I know.

    If I'm interpreting correctly you're saying that the shifter moves up and down, but you can't feel the drum trying to rotate?

    I'm off to Thanksgiving with the fam, but I'll check back in tonight and tomorrow to see how things are going.
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribrickulous View Post
    Just re-read this... last silly q/comment. We're sure the clutch is properly adjusted and disengaging the transmission from the engine? Longshot, I know.

    If I'm interpreting correctly you're saying that the shifter moves up and down, but you can't feel the drum trying to rotate?

    I'm off to Thanksgiving with the fam, but I'll check back in tonight and tomorrow to see how things are going.
    Well, I took it all apart and everything appears normal but it seems like the shifter isnt traveling enough maybe? I dont know, makes no sense... its like the shifter runs out of travel before it pushes it in gear? I'll pull off the stopper and get more pics

    20221124_125326.jpg 20221124_125307.jpg

    Last edited by ancientdad; 11.24.22 at 2:47 PM.
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
    1971 Honda CB175 K4
    2022 Piaggio Liberty S150
    2007 Kymco People 150


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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    Two questions:

    1) I see a video of the shift lever mechanism being moved, but I don’t see the counter or mainshaft moving. It’s difficult to do, but those need to be spinning to move the shift drum, or else gears can be in a spot where they don’t mesh, and thus wont move.

    2) if spinning the mainshaft and countershaft don’t help, if you loosen this bolt, while spinning main and countershafts, does the mechanism free up?




    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

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    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
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    ^^^It's a fair point Ed, and I also noticed that the shift shaft arm was moving but seemingly not enough to actually turn the shift drum. Of course, it may be that the drum doesn't want to move but we can't determine how much force was being applied to the shift shaft either just by watching. I'm leaning toward the detent mechanism binding, similar to what you experienced.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

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    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    So, when I went to loosen that bolt you suggested I found it was already loose...so I tightened it and got it to shift a little better but it still doesnt seem right. but, I'm not sure if it was running if it would work correctly now or not. take a look ...
    I also took off the parts so you could see what kind of pieces are on that mechanism
    20221124_150139.jpg

    Everything looks correct... I'm flummoxed
    Last edited by ancientdad; 11.25.22 at 9:20 AM.
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
    1971 Honda CB175 K4
    2022 Piaggio Liberty S150
    2007 Kymco People 150


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    Senior Member Ribrickulous's Avatar
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    So the bike usually won’t shift more than a gear without one or both shafts spinning (I know I sound like a broken record at this point).

    Get it to a spot where it’s in gear (in a detent or at neutral on the star), spin the rear wheel to get it moving, and then spin the mainshaft (input shaft) while shifting.

    If it moves reasonably smoothly with that manual persuasion, it should be fine while running.


    - 1972 CL350
    - 1985 VF700F
    Ed
    1972 CL350 K4
    1985 VF700F

  40. #40
    Senior Member Scootman's Avatar
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    I'm thinking youre probably right...I can go through all the gears while turning the sprocket manually and using a screwdriver to operate the shift drum. but when I use the shifter i can only get it into first and back to neutral with some persuasion though. I dont have a chain connected yet to try that procedure but, I'm thinking maybe it's just the way these constant mesh transmissions work, but I dont really know. But tightening that loose bolt did help so maybe that was the issue? it seems to snap into that star good now, i wasnt seeing that before, also that shift drum has been sitting around in there, maybe it needs to be run and get that oil in there to loosen it up? Ill probably hook up the chain tomorrow and keep trying to figure out... thanks again
    1970 Honda CB350 K2
    1971 Honda CB175 K4
    2022 Piaggio Liberty S150
    2007 Kymco People 150


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