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Star detent and shift stopper replacement

Here's an interesting development.

The replacement shift shaft went in fine (no resistance at any spot in the case - whereas the extraction of the old one - I could feel it stick in a couple of spots and had to rotate it to get it to slide out completely - likely it's slightly bent).

With the shaft seal in and the shifter lever on it shifts perfectly through all gears while rotating the countershaft.

However, there is no way that both the washer and circlip will fit outside of the properly seated seal;

it's an either/or situation. The circlip would seat properly without the washer, if the washer is installed there is not enough room to seat the circlip.

I measured the old shaft and this replacement - both measure 165mm from the inside of the welded plate to the outboard edge of the circlip seat. There is nothing at the weld location (plate side of the shift shaft) on either part to keeping them from seating properly.

Everything in here is in the proper place and correctly oriented;

In the above photo notice that the arm of the shifter is flat against the circular (vent?). That is not going to allow any further movement toward the port side.

The shaft spring is not preventing proper positioning;

Considering the goal was to swap out the star detent and shift stopper, I'll call all this a victory even if I go back to the drill depth collar I was using to hold the washer, but my inner perfectionist wants to have the circlip do its job.

I've looked over the installation many times, retracted and installed both shift shafts, and can't think of a reason for missing 1 to 2 mm of required space.

Any thoughts?


In your second picture it looks like the bearing on the counter shaft is sticking out. I believe it should be flush with the case. Number 27 in the pic below. Maybe the pin is missing? Could this be keeping the shift shaft from going further?
Bearing.png
 
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Humor me for a minute and check something. I can't see behind the shift shaft lever to be sure of something, it's not likely but possible nonetheless. In the first fiche below, look at #23. Now pull the shift shaft and see if the locating pin for the countershaft bearing was punched through the upper case by someone who had the bottom end apart previously and didn't get the small end bearing located on its pin properly during reassembly. I'd be inclined to think the transmission wouldn't have worked properly in other ways if it was, but your mention of the shift shaft hitting the small end bearing outer. In comparing shift shafts from K4 to K7, there is a difference in part number (last 3 digits 030 vs 040) and without logging into CMSNL to see all models, the 030 shows it fits K1 through K4 and the 040 shows K5 to K7 so the bearing outer might be the slight bit of difference (which I wasn't aware of and ass-umed was the same :sorry: ) BUT my spare engine the shift shaft came from is a CL450K6 which uses the 040 version shaft and the fiche shows it has the same style small end countershaft bearing outer... so it IS a mystery. Unless your bearing outer is not on the locating pin (but unlikely)

CB450K7 trans shafts with same countershaft small end bearing outer as yours

honda-cb450k7-usa-e-14-transmission_big3IMG01171584_139b.jpg

CL450K6 trans, same as CB450K7 (look at #27)

MjAyODYwMg-d440e31e.png

listing for shift shaft from CL450K6, same as CB450K5-K7 (040 last 3 digits)

https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cl450-scrambler-1974-k6-usa_model558/spindle-gearshift_24610292040/
 
Humor me for a minute and check something. I can't see behind the shift shaft lever to be sure of something, it's not likely but possible nonetheless. In the first fiche below, look at #23. Now pull the shift shaft and see if the locating pin for the countershaft bearing was

punched through the upper case by someone who had the bottom end apart previously and didn't get the small end bearing located on its pin properly during reassembly.


This.

I'd be inclined to think the transmission wouldn't have worked properly in other ways if it was, but your mention of the shift shaft hitting the small end bearing outer. In comparing shift shafts from K4 to K7, there is a difference in part number (last 3 digits 030 vs 040) and without logging into CMSNL to see all models, the 030 shows it fits K1 through K4 and the 040 shows K5 to K7 so the bearing outer might be the slight bit of difference (which I wasn't aware of and ass-umed was the same :sorry: ) BUT my spare engine the shift shaft came from is a CL450K6 which uses the 040 version shaft and the fiche shows it has the same style small end countershaft bearing outer... so it IS a mystery. Unless your bearing outer is not on the locating pin (but unlikely)

CB450K7 trans shafts with same countershaft small end bearing outer as yours

View attachment 18599

CL450K6 trans, same as CB450K7 (look at #27)

View attachment 18600

listing for shift shaft from CL450K6, same as CB450K5-K7 (040 last 3 digits)

https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cl450-scrambler-1974-k6-usa_model558/spindle-gearshift_24610292040/

So - I had a look - the plot thickens.

IMG_4277.jpg

The area in red looks like it's been milled out. I don't know what a normal case looks like, and I can't fathom the reason for cutting this up (if that's what's been done).

Measurement at the green line is 4mm.

This is undoubtedly the issue. I have no idea what could be going on inside the case, maybe an extra shim at the bearing, or an after market bearing. And I don't know how that would effect the shifting.

So - it seems that without taking the bottom end off, I'll be running this with the drill depth collar for the foreseeable future.

Previous owners. Right?
 
I know it would never have occurred to you until mentioned, but that would have leaped out at me like a snake. God that's ugly, although I suppose some credit goes to whoever tried to repair the issue. This is what I expected to see with the shift shaft removed for a clear view.

below arrow pointing down

2YwDMSl.jpg


Hard to say if they tried to compensate for it with a shim on the shaft, or if they just gouged out the hole to allow them to get to the locating pin and "align" it. Either way I think the small end bearing outer is too far outward by a couple millimeters. Can you see the locating pin down in the hole where it should be? You might need a mirror to get a decent view. Typically the pin getting punched through the upper case causes the casting to pop a piece off as in that picture.
 
So - I had a look - the plot thickens.

View attachment 18602

The area in red looks like it's been milled out. I don't know what a normal case looks like, and I can't fathom the reason for cutting this up (if that's what's been done).

Measurement at the green line is 4mm.

This is undoubtedly the issue. I have no idea what could be going on inside the case, maybe an extra shim at the bearing, or an after market bearing. And I don't know how that would effect the shifting.

So - it seems that without taking the bottom end off, I'll be running this with the drill depth collar for the foreseeable future.

Previous owners. Right?


the red are you circled looks very similar to mine.
tran1.jpg
That milled area looks likes it's to feed oil to the bearing through that thin slot
tran2.jpg
 
Interesting, and now that you point it out it does look like it might be intended - but his looks uglier compared to the one you showed. But it still doesn't explain why your small end bearing outer is flush or barely sticking out while his is sticking out of the crankcase much further. (and why is the little cast post on yours seemingly broken off?)

vE0Ed3N.jpg


61XBgVI.jpg


It would seem that the "bump" in the casting behind all this is actually where the locating pin is, and I assumed it was involved with the other part where the "machined" slot is...
 
Since the locating pin has not pushed through the case yet the bearing is protruding from the case, I think the locating pin is missing.

Any ideas what purpose the little post serves that is missing on my case? Should I be concerned?
 
Further to the above discussion. I was just at my friends place here in Osoyoos. He's swapping the engine out of his CL and I'm helping with the heavy lifting. Among the parts supplied with his new engine is an old top case and at the shaft area there is a hole (the same keyhole pattern). It looks well machined, but it's there. Same thing.

Some kind of common kludge?

If ancientdad has never seen this before, I'm inclined to believe it's after market &$@# ery (favorite descriptive term for shortcut). And it seems common.

In any event I'm exactly where I'm at. There's a 2mm shortfall in the travel of my shift shaft and I'll be darned if I'm going to pull this motor to solve it unless I have to.

So - consensus?

I'm inclined to go with the drill depth collar solution and run that - it worked fine on the old shift shaft, and down the road when I have the engine out and the cases apart - I'll do some fixin'.

I would like those who know to expound on what you think is going on inside...
 
I would like those who know to expound on what you think is going on inside...

Me too. I'm going back out to my garage to see what my two spare engines look like, since one is a CL450K6. Some stuff I just don't pay attention to if there's never been a problem...
 
Pretty quick here I'm gonna get back at it and install this clutch and oil pump and close up the case.


Thanks all for your insights.


And - previous owners. Jesus...
 
Birdland, I took a closer look at your pic and it appears that the edge of the hole for the locating pin is just exposed a little (see the yellow area). There is no way the hole could be exposed if the locating pin was in place.
Pin2.jpg
You could try a few gentle taps with a plastic mallet to see if the bearing cap will go in a bit further
 
Birdland, I took a closer look at your pic and it appears that the edge of the hole for the locating pin is just exposed a little (see the yellow area). There is no way the hole could be exposed if the locating pin was in place.
View attachment 18614
You could try a few gentle taps with a plastic mallet to see if the bearing cap will go in a bit further


We posted at the same time.

Yup...
 
Birdland, I took a closer look at your pic and it appears that the edge of the hole for the locating pin is just exposed a little (see the yellow area). There is no way the hole could be exposed if the locating pin was in place.
You could try a few gentle taps with a plastic mallet to see if the bearing cap will go in a bit further

Good eye - but the issue will be the locating pin. I'm amazed the bearing outer hasn't moved further and caused even greater shifting issues, I've seen 350s that ended up with more problems as the result of the locating pin not being in the bearing outer. Tapping it into the crankcase will help briefly, but the only way to get the locating pin into the bearing outer at this point (without a teardown) would be to cut the top off the casting bump and tap a pin down into the outer IF it can be correctly aligned.
 
Good eye - but the issue will be the locating pin. I'm amazed the bearing outer hasn't moved further and caused even greater shifting issues, I've seen 350s that ended up with more problems as the result of the locating pin not being in the bearing outer. Tapping it into the crankcase will help briefly, but the only way to get the locating pin into the bearing outer at this point (without a teardown) would be to cut the top off the casting bump and tap a pin down into the outer IF it can be correctly aligned.

*throws hammer…*
 
*throws hammer…*

I feel your pain, believe me. Frankly, I'm amazed it previously ran and shifted just fine for the most part considering the situation that was unknown. I can send you a locating pin and you can find a way to cut or grind off the top of the case where the pin goes into the bearing outer, and if it moved back into the case that easily you might be able to wiggle it into position, put the pin in from the top and (after some carb spray and drying time) JB Weld over the top of it once in. If it saves an engine pull and bottom end teardown it would be worth the time and effort.
 
I feel your pain, believe me. Frankly, I'm amazed it previously ran and shifted just fine for the most part considering the situation that was unknown. I can send you a locating pin and you can find a way to cut or grind off the top of the case where the pin goes into the bearing outer, and if it moved back into the case that easily you might be able to wiggle it into position, put the pin in from the top and (after some carb spray and drying time) JB Weld over the top of it once in. If it saves an engine pull and bottom end teardown it would be worth the time and effort.

I was thinking a drop of red locktight.

But - yeah - ship the pin and let me know the cost Tom.

Thanks.
 
I was thinking a drop of red locktight.

But - yeah - ship the pin and let me know the cost Tom.

Thanks.

I will. If you have a cutting wheel you could snip the top of that bump off pretty cleanly, then insert the pin and juggle the bearing outer around until you get it aligned and tap the pin down into it. I'm not sure I'd trust even bearing loctite on it because it would be impossible to get the area completely oil-free, plus there will be some outward force on it to some extent which is why it was that far out to begin with when you opened things up. In reality, though it's a setback, it's good that the shift shaft didn't go through all the way since it drew your attention to it. I'll get the pin out tomorrow, Friday at the latest.
 
I will. If you have a cutting wheel you could snip the top of that bump off pretty cleanly, then insert the pin and juggle the bearing outer around until you get it aligned and tap the pin down into it. I'm not sure I'd trust even bearing loctite on it because it would be impossible to get the area completely oil-free, plus there will be some outward force on it to some extent which is why it was that far out to begin with when you opened things up. In reality, though it's a setback, it's good that the shift shaft didn't go through all the way since it drew your attention to it. I'll get the pin out tomorrow, Friday at the latest.


I have the dremel and cutting wheels I used to fashion the oil filter wrench. It should go through the aluminum like butter.

At this point I can't get the bearing outer to budge in any direction. It was a very gentle tap to seat it, but I have no grip and no leverage to move it at all.

Set backs are there for a reason.

Although I am going to throw a few more hammers before I calm down.
 
I have the dremel and cutting wheels I used to fashion the oil filter wrench. It should go through the aluminum like butter.

At this point I can't get the bearing outer to budge in any direction. It was a very gentle tap to seat it, but I have no grip and no leverage to move it at all.

Set backs are there for a reason.

Although I am going to throw a few more hammers before I calm down.

I usually take the nearest hammer and bang it on my big vise 2 or 3 times. I learned long ago not to do it on concrete, chips fly. :)

I suspect you might be able to lever the bearing outer through the slot in the case, a flat 90° tool of some sort might do it (a drum brake adjuster comes to mind though it might be too thick). You may have to make one by sacrificing a flat screwdriver.
 
Looking back over the previous pictures in this thread, I'm embarrassed that I didn't notice the problem sooner. Forest for the trees situation, I was paying attention to other stuff and didn't see the obvious. :sorry:
 
Looking back over the previous pictures in this thread, I'm embarrassed that I didn't notice the problem sooner. Forest for the trees situation, I was paying attention to other stuff and didn't see the obvious. :sorry:

Man, don’t ever…

The value you guys bring to this whole picture is beyond question.
 
My favorite teachers shared their mistakes with me and it really stuck with me.

When the time comes, flip it over and pull the bottom case, it won't be that bad. You don't even have to disturb the jugs or head.
 
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I have the dremel and cutting wheels I used to fashion the oil filter wrench. It should go through the aluminum like butter.

At this point I can't get the bearing outer to budge in any direction. It was a very gentle tap to seat it, but I have no grip and no leverage to move it at all.

Set backs are there for a reason.

Although I am going to throw a few more hammers before I calm down.

Based on the pic of the outer bearing, the knock pin hole looked to be pretty well in the right position. The pin itself has a taper on the end and the hole has a chamfered edge. A light tap of the pin might line everything up nicely
 
This, and many other possible hidden issue's are the reason that taking down the engine completely, and build it up from scratch is always my advice, as I gave this advice in the beginning.
 
I imagine it could have only dropped down into the inside of the clutch cover? and you would have noticed it in there when you removed the cover.

The only way that pin is getting out of its spot in the upper case is when the engine is apart. With the transmission shafts in place during assembly - whether the bearing outer was lined up correctly or not - there is nowhere for the pin to go except get pushed through the upper case, and it obviously did not do that as we can see in the pictures. I didn't look closely enough when I first saw the picture of the "slot" above the bearing outer and assumed it was because the pin had gotten punched through, but after realizing the "slot" is just for oiling and seeing the bump behind it in the upper case undamaged, the pin had to have fallen out of the upper case when the engine was previously apart and whoever assembled the engine obviously didn't notice. Since the engine can't be assembled right-side up with all the parts sitting in the lower case, the pin is somewhere else and not in the bottom end.

4s0YKWw.jpg
 
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