jensen
Veteran Member
Is the spring oriented correctly ? Try to turn it 180 degrees (mirroring it) The spring is asymmetrical, bin there don that.
Here's an interesting development.
The replacement shift shaft went in fine (no resistance at any spot in the case - whereas the extraction of the old one - I could feel it stick in a couple of spots and had to rotate it to get it to slide out completely - likely it's slightly bent).
With the shaft seal in and the shifter lever on it shifts perfectly through all gears while rotating the countershaft.
However, there is no way that both the washer and circlip will fit outside of the properly seated seal;
it's an either/or situation. The circlip would seat properly without the washer, if the washer is installed there is not enough room to seat the circlip.
I measured the old shaft and this replacement - both measure 165mm from the inside of the welded plate to the outboard edge of the circlip seat. There is nothing at the weld location (plate side of the shift shaft) on either part to keeping them from seating properly.
Everything in here is in the proper place and correctly oriented;
In the above photo notice that the arm of the shifter is flat against the circular (vent?). That is not going to allow any further movement toward the port side.
The shaft spring is not preventing proper positioning;
Considering the goal was to swap out the star detent and shift stopper, I'll call all this a victory even if I go back to the drill depth collar I was using to hold the washer, but my inner perfectionist wants to have the circlip do its job.
I've looked over the installation many times, retracted and installed both shift shafts, and can't think of a reason for missing 1 to 2 mm of required space.
Any thoughts?
Is the spring oriented correctly ? Try to turn it 180 degrees (mirroring it) The spring is asymmetrical, bin there don that.
Humor me for a minute and check something. I can't see behind the shift shaft lever to be sure of something, it's not likely but possible nonetheless. In the first fiche below, look at #23. Now pull the shift shaft and see if the locating pin for the countershaft bearing was
punched through the upper case by someone who had the bottom end apart previously and didn't get the small end bearing located on its pin properly during reassembly.
This.
I'd be inclined to think the transmission wouldn't have worked properly in other ways if it was, but your mention of the shift shaft hitting the small end bearing outer. In comparing shift shafts from K4 to K7, there is a difference in part number (last 3 digits 030 vs 040) and without logging into CMSNL to see all models, the 030 shows it fits K1 through K4 and the 040 shows K5 to K7 so the bearing outer might be the slight bit of difference (which I wasn't aware of and ass-umed was the same :sorry: ) BUT my spare engine the shift shaft came from is a CL450K6 which uses the 040 version shaft and the fiche shows it has the same style small end countershaft bearing outer... so it IS a mystery. Unless your bearing outer is not on the locating pin (but unlikely)
CB450K7 trans shafts with same countershaft small end bearing outer as yours
View attachment 18599
CL450K6 trans, same as CB450K7 (look at #27)
View attachment 18600
listing for shift shaft from CL450K6, same as CB450K5-K7 (040 last 3 digits)
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cl450-scrambler-1974-k6-usa_model558/spindle-gearshift_24610292040/
So - I had a look - the plot thickens.
View attachment 18602
The area in red looks like it's been milled out. I don't know what a normal case looks like, and I can't fathom the reason for cutting this up (if that's what's been done).
Measurement at the green line is 4mm.
This is undoubtedly the issue. I have no idea what could be going on inside the case, maybe an extra shim at the bearing, or an after market bearing. And I don't know how that would effect the shifting.
So - it seems that without taking the bottom end off, I'll be running this with the drill depth collar for the foreseeable future.
Previous owners. Right?
I would like those who know to expound on what you think is going on inside...
Birdland, I took a closer look at your pic and it appears that the edge of the hole for the locating pin is just exposed a little (see the yellow area). There is no way the hole could be exposed if the locating pin was in place.
View attachment 18614
You could try a few gentle taps with a plastic mallet to see if the bearing cap will go in a bit further
Birdland, I took a closer look at your pic and it appears that the edge of the hole for the locating pin is just exposed a little (see the yellow area). There is no way the hole could be exposed if the locating pin was in place.
You could try a few gentle taps with a plastic mallet to see if the bearing cap will go in a bit further
Good eye - but the issue will be the locating pin. I'm amazed the bearing outer hasn't moved further and caused even greater shifting issues, I've seen 350s that ended up with more problems as the result of the locating pin not being in the bearing outer. Tapping it into the crankcase will help briefly, but the only way to get the locating pin into the bearing outer at this point (without a teardown) would be to cut the top off the casting bump and tap a pin down into the outer IF it can be correctly aligned.
*throws hammer…*
I feel your pain, believe me. Frankly, I'm amazed it previously ran and shifted just fine for the most part considering the situation that was unknown. I can send you a locating pin and you can find a way to cut or grind off the top of the case where the pin goes into the bearing outer, and if it moved back into the case that easily you might be able to wiggle it into position, put the pin in from the top and (after some carb spray and drying time) JB Weld over the top of it once in. If it saves an engine pull and bottom end teardown it would be worth the time and effort.
I was thinking a drop of red locktight.
But - yeah - ship the pin and let me know the cost Tom.
Thanks.
I will. If you have a cutting wheel you could snip the top of that bump off pretty cleanly, then insert the pin and juggle the bearing outer around until you get it aligned and tap the pin down into it. I'm not sure I'd trust even bearing loctite on it because it would be impossible to get the area completely oil-free, plus there will be some outward force on it to some extent which is why it was that far out to begin with when you opened things up. In reality, though it's a setback, it's good that the shift shaft didn't go through all the way since it drew your attention to it. I'll get the pin out tomorrow, Friday at the latest.
I have the dremel and cutting wheels I used to fashion the oil filter wrench. It should go through the aluminum like butter.
At this point I can't get the bearing outer to budge in any direction. It was a very gentle tap to seat it, but I have no grip and no leverage to move it at all.
Set backs are there for a reason.
Although I am going to throw a few more hammers before I calm down.
Looking back over the previous pictures in this thread, I'm embarrassed that I didn't notice the problem sooner. Forest for the trees situation, I was paying attention to other stuff and didn't see the obvious. :sorry:
I have the dremel and cutting wheels I used to fashion the oil filter wrench. It should go through the aluminum like butter.
At this point I can't get the bearing outer to budge in any direction. It was a very gentle tap to seat it, but I have no grip and no leverage to move it at all.
Set backs are there for a reason.
Although I am going to throw a few more hammers before I calm down.
I hope the missing pin is in a place where it can't cause any issues.
Lol. In the previous owners garage likely.
But yeah - I get your drift.
I imagine it could have only dropped down into the inside of the clutch cover? and you would have noticed it in there when you removed the cover.