Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: CL77 rear wheel fun and games

  1. #1
    Senior Member Flyin900's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.27.20
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    595
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    100
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    243
    Thanked in
    178 Posts

    CL77 rear wheel fun and games

    So I am working on this rear wheel and hub after getting the rim chromed and new spokes from Scrambler Cycle. I have two issues that are new to me in rim work. My rim experience has been a few brand new DID rims and spokes that I have done which went well in both the spoke work and the truing of the wheels.

    Not so with the CL77 rear rim, as the replacement spokes while the same length as the originals I removed have about a dozen starting to protrude, or are protruding into the rim tape area. The originals did not do that and there were some small concave washers under the spoke nuts that were badly rusted that I removed. The new spoke kits don't supply these washers as a replacement part. These would take up some of the protrusion on the spokes that are marginally close to entering the rim.

    My first though is that I re spoked the rim incorrectly, yet the pattern matches other 36 spoke Honda rims I have, plus the indents left on the outer hub sections from the original outer spokes align correctly with those marks on the installed new spokes.

    The other big issue is this rim has quite a bit of runout both vertically and horizontally. With it being a reinforced scrambler rim with the outer metal strength band on each side, it has been a bear to try to pull it into any sort of alignment. I just seem to be chasing my tail.

    I didn't measure the rim/hub for any factory offset, which is possibly a mistake. My limited experience with later 70's Honda rims, is there isn't any offset to calculate. You just lace them up and true the wheel.

    Here is the rim as presently laced up. Any thoughts on the pattern and any tips on getting the truing closer while I still have some tail left.



    P1080477.jpgP1080478.jpg
    1966 CL77 - 305cc - Gentleman's Scrambler
    1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
    1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
    1973 CB350F - Flake Matador Red - Super Sport
    1975 CB400F - Parakeet Yellow - Super Sport
    1976 GL1000 - Goldwing Standard
    1978 CB550K - Super Sport

  2. #2
    Junior Member Dmoh's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.07.21
    Location
    Woolgoolga, Australia
    Posts
    16
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    37
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    20
    Thanked in
    10 Posts
    My guess is that you may have mixed your 'inner' spokes with your 'outer' spokes.

    I did that rebuilding a wheel with a new spoke kit on my CB200.

    All the spokes were the same length, but the spoke head angle on the inners and the outers was different.

    Mixing them up, as I did, made the wheel 'unbuildable'.

    Once I realised this, and got them in their correct locations, the wheel went together easily.

    Good luck with your corrections. The wheels looks great, BTW.

    Cheers
    1973 CB200 - Drum brake

  3. #3
    Senior Member Flyin900's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.27.20
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    595
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    100
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    243
    Thanked in
    178 Posts
    It is possible to do that, yet the spokes will not sit in their respective holes correctly given the head angles of the two styles. These are correct in their set up. The front wheel is back today, so I will lace that one and see how things line up and try your suggestion.
    When getting the spokes incorrectly oriented on other rims it is obvious immediately is my experience.
    1966 CL77 - 305cc - Gentleman's Scrambler
    1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
    1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
    1973 CB350F - Flake Matador Red - Super Sport
    1975 CB400F - Parakeet Yellow - Super Sport
    1976 GL1000 - Goldwing Standard
    1978 CB550K - Super Sport

  4. #4
    Senior Member Flyin900's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.27.20
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    595
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    100
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    243
    Thanked in
    178 Posts
    So after much work I managed to get the wheel trued within 1.5 - 2.0 mm of runout. Which based on what I started with this is excellent and I will call it good. The bad news is 26 of the spokes are through the nipple heads and into the rim strip area.
    The rim is correctly laced with the right spoke orientation and the lengths of the new spokes matched the old ones, so I am at a loss to understand that outcome. The only difference is the 18 washers that the original spokes used and it could have been 36 washers, I don’t recall if each hole had a washer. The CMSL parts fiche shows original Honda spokes available and only 18 on the B set show as supplied with the washers.
    I will contact Scrambler Cycle for some feedback on those spoke kits. Yet something is off for sure.

    Any suggestions on dealing with cutting down 26 spoke on the nipple heads while installed in the rim?
    1966 CL77 - 305cc - Gentleman's Scrambler
    1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
    1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
    1973 CB350F - Flake Matador Red - Super Sport
    1975 CB400F - Parakeet Yellow - Super Sport
    1976 GL1000 - Goldwing Standard
    1978 CB550K - Super Sport

  5. #5
    Senior Member Flyin900's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.27.20
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    595
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    100
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    243
    Thanked in
    178 Posts
    I picked up and laced the front wheel yesterday and trued it today. It was much closer to true and none of the spokes came through the nipple heads into the rim interior.

    I looked at the rear rim again feeling that for sure there is something off lacing wise. I do have pictures of the original rims prior to removing them off the hubs. When looking at the spoke pattern and placement the new spokes they match 100% the old/new spoke pattern and placement. Yet 26 protruded through the nipples. I ground them off today with a grinder wheel and it wasn't pretty, yet too many to fuss with otherwise.

    I guess not a lot of people spoke rims themselves and even my machinist friend rarely spokes his own rims which was a surprise. It seems like a black art to most and not a favorite job of mine either. If you do it regularly, I am sure it is second nature to a bicycle or repair shop tech who does it quite often.

    I painted the rear rim strip area as the nipples had some grinder marks that the steel was showing through the cadmium plate and will rust eventually. Black Tremclad is my friend here.


    P1080481.jpgP1080482.jpg
    1966 CL77 - 305cc - Gentleman's Scrambler
    1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
    1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
    1973 CB350F - Flake Matador Red - Super Sport
    1975 CB400F - Parakeet Yellow - Super Sport
    1976 GL1000 - Goldwing Standard
    1978 CB550K - Super Sport

  6. #6
    Benevolent Dictator ancientdad's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.21.20
    Location
    Nature Coast, FL
    Posts
    16,314
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,692
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4,068
    Thanked in
    3,198 Posts
    In long-ago, rare occasions I laced a wheel or two. I ended up with a few spokes that protruded and I ground them off as well. Not the prettiest solution but smoothing them off with a wire wheel and then a shot of paint to keep the rust away, it all worked out. I'm not fond of the job either and prefer to use them just cleaned up if possible, there's plenty more to do on bikes like ours to keep us busy. Looks like you took care of it well.
    (move along, nothing to see here)

  7. #7
    Senior Member Alan F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    06.01.20
    Location
    Haverhill, MA, USA
    Posts
    1,252
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    765
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    309
    Thanked in
    260 Posts
    Late to the party but I agree with grinding off the protruding spokes, I haven't had to do this yet myself but I've read it many times over on one forum or another.
    Free Fork Swap & Upgrade info parked at: http://sites.google.com/site/alansdocuments/
    '65 CB160 https://tinyurl.com/Black-Friday-a-red-65-CB160
    CB250 Nighthawks 92,93,92
    SOHC CB750K 73, 78
    Boston,MA USA

  8. #8
    Senior Member ballbearian's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.21.21
    Location
    Hagerstown MD USA
    Posts
    1,875
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,114
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    639
    Thanked in
    528 Posts
    Those are 40 spoke wheels. I didn't know that CL's had them ( I can tell at a glance but counted to be sure) . Rim washers are not used on steel rims. Perhaps the wheels were previously repaired with different spokes and they were added to "make it work" or the rim holes were worn/stretched and they were added to help with that.
    Another reason for poking through spokes is that the hub holes have become elongated from stress and a little variation there can mean a mm or two at the nipple.
    Spoke head diameter and nipple head profile can also vary, even in the same gauge or manufacturer.

    Looks good overall. Grinding a mm or two is no big deal.

  9. #9
    Senior Member mike in idaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.17.20
    Location
    Orofino Idaho USA
    Posts
    866
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    280
    Thanked in
    245 Posts
    The later,big brake, rear wheel had 36 spokes with 40 spokes in the front. The early, small braked wheels used 40 spokes, front and rear. Every CL77 wheel i've ever taken apart used washers on the spoke nipples.
    '66 CL160
    '66 CB160
    '67 CL77
    '79 XS650
    '69 T100R
    '68 TR6R
    '69 T120R
    '72 750 Commando

  10. #10
    Senior Member Flyin900's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.27.20
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    595
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    100
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    243
    Thanked in
    178 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by ballbearian View Post
    Those are 40 spoke wheels. I didn't know that CL's had them ( I can tell at a glance but counted to be sure) . Rim washers are not used on steel rims. Perhaps the wheels were previously repaired with different spokes and they were added to "make it work" or the rim holes were worn/stretched and they were added to help with that.
    Another reason for poking through spokes is that the hub holes have become elongated from stress and a little variation there can mean a mm or two at the nipple.
    Spoke head diameter and nipple head profile can also vary, even in the same gauge or manufacturer.

    Looks good overall. Grinding a mm or two is no big deal.
    The front wheel is a 40 spoke and the rear is 36 spoke and both are 19”, or I would have replaced them with an aluminum aftermarket. I couldn’t find any from the searches I did for the odd front rear spoke quantity difference. They were silly expensive to have refinished and chromed again, so I was thinking they maybe damaged. I didn’t really check them before taking them apart.

    They did come with those washers from Honda, as CMS has replacement original OEM “B” spokes that have the washers included with the spoke and nipple. I don’t recall if there were only 18 washers, or 36 on the rear rim. Lesson learned here, as I have been proceeding with too little knowledge and history to refer back to months later, when I encounter a problem such as this one.

    It seems odd to me to have to cut 26 of the 36 spokes down to size flush with the nipple end. A couple maybe but 26???
    1966 CL77 - 305cc - Gentleman's Scrambler
    1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
    1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
    1973 CB350F - Flake Matador Red - Super Sport
    1975 CB400F - Parakeet Yellow - Super Sport
    1976 GL1000 - Goldwing Standard
    1978 CB550K - Super Sport

  11. #11
    Senior Member ballbearian's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.21.21
    Location
    Hagerstown MD USA
    Posts
    1,875
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,114
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    639
    Thanked in
    528 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by mike in idaho View Post
    The later,big brake, rear wheel had 36 spokes with 40 spokes in the front. The early, small braked wheels used 40 spokes, front and rear. Every CL77 wheel i've ever taken apart used washers on the spoke nipples.
    Thanks. I'm always learning here. I've only seen washers on alloys.

  12. #12
    Senior Member ballbearian's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.21.21
    Location
    Hagerstown MD USA
    Posts
    1,875
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,114
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    639
    Thanked in
    528 Posts
    Yeah, kind of odd, but not unheard of. I've seen alot of weird stuff in the many hundreds of bicycle wheels I've dealt with since '75. Might be the holes in the hub are tiny bit off. Another reason I'd never cut spokes under full tension, especially if re-using rim.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Flyin900's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.27.20
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    595
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    100
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    243
    Thanked in
    178 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by ballbearian View Post
    Another reason I'd never cut spokes under full tension, especially if re-using rim.
    I think you mean in taking the rim apart initially. I know some guys just take a bolt cutter and hack away. In my limited rim work I have taken the spokes out correctly, by releasing the nipples around the rim to remove the hubs.

    In hindsight I should have researched the rims and checked the runout on the assembly before taking them apart. I don't own a truing stand and borrow a friends who is local and convenient. If I had one on hand, I would have likely checked the rims first before sending them out for refinishing all the rusted areas and then new chrome plating.
    1966 CL77 - 305cc - Gentleman's Scrambler
    1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
    1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
    1973 CB350F - Flake Matador Red - Super Sport
    1975 CB400F - Parakeet Yellow - Super Sport
    1976 GL1000 - Goldwing Standard
    1978 CB550K - Super Sport

  14. #14
    Administrator LongDistanceRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.22.20
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,886
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,232
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,453
    Thanked in
    1,924 Posts
    Too late to make a difference probably but is it possible the spokes are too tight? It's the only reason I can come up with that there's excess threads. But I have never laced a wheel so take that into consideration.
    Jim O'Brien
    1979 CM400T aka the Roadbike, 1978 CB400T1 semi restored, 1972 CL350K4 restoration and the 1971 SL350K1 disaster zone.
    Plus 2 SL350K0's , 2 SL350K1's, 1 CL350K0 and 1 CL350K1 waiting for space and time
    Contact: 408-239-9580 or [email protected]

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    07.23.20
    Location
    Davis,CA. USA
    Posts
    1,065
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    564
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    196
    Thanked in
    181 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by ballbearian View Post
    Those are 40 spoke wheels. I didn't know that CL's had them ( I can tell at a glance but counted to be sure) . Rim washers are not used on steel rims. Perhaps the wheels were previously repaired with different spokes and they were added to "make it work" or the rim holes were worn/stretched and they were added to help with that.
    Another reason for poking through spokes is that the hub holes have become elongated from stress and a little variation there can mean a mm or two at the nipple.
    Spoke head diameter and nipple head profile can also vary, even in the same gauge or manufacturer.

    Looks good overall. Grinding a mm or two is no big deal.

    This seem like good reasons.I'm inclined to think that the new spokes were not 'shouldered/butted' where they fit into the hubs like the OEM spokes are which fit tighter,that makes them fit loose in the hub holes which keeps them pulling-up further.The new spokes may also be a smaller O.D. wire diameter.I like using stock Honda spokes the best because of this,even used ones..
    When you laced them up,a full set of spoke nipple washers would have taken-up the slack in the length;did they originally have washers ?

  16. #16
    Senior Member Flyin900's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.27.20
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    595
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    100
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    243
    Thanked in
    178 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by LongDistanceRider View Post
    Too late to make a difference probably but is it possible the spokes are too tight? It's the only reason I can come up with that there's excess threads. But I have never laced a wheel so take that into consideration.
    LDR the spokes protruded through the nipples at hand tight, no adjustment was started at that point. It usually is a sign that the wheel isn’t laced correctly. That is what I have experienced when I did my first wheel a few years ago.
    1966 CL77 - 305cc - Gentleman's Scrambler
    1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
    1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
    1973 CB350F - Flake Matador Red - Super Sport
    1975 CB400F - Parakeet Yellow - Super Sport
    1976 GL1000 - Goldwing Standard
    1978 CB550K - Super Sport

  17. #17
    Administrator LongDistanceRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.22.20
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,886
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,232
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,453
    Thanked in
    1,924 Posts
    That's what I figured but had to ask.
    Jim O'Brien
    1979 CM400T aka the Roadbike, 1978 CB400T1 semi restored, 1972 CL350K4 restoration and the 1971 SL350K1 disaster zone.
    Plus 2 SL350K0's , 2 SL350K1's, 1 CL350K0 and 1 CL350K1 waiting for space and time
    Contact: 408-239-9580 or [email protected]

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •