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Blue Dream CA78

That's interesting as the gear dogs seem to be straight cut on that transmission and the 1966 CL77 motor used a back cut dog. What year is the motor that you have there? It seems many changes took place over the span of the production of these bikes and motors.

It is 1964. CA77E 104540. Seems many changes were begun between '63 and '65. BTW, thanks so much for yours and TomF's threads showing engine work.
 
Yes, just took the bottom off. It feels better than the first engine but is so blackened with oil, I will share some cleaned up pics for sure. Having more parts options is a plus for sure but also means double duty at the parts cleaning pot:cry:
 
First off, gotta say, it's nice to listen to classic radio when working on vintage Hondas.
WJEJ 1240 AM Listen Live - Hagerstown, United States | Online Radio Box Seems to fit right in.

#11 is the damaged gear. The left edge is partly engaged when running in 2nd gear, according to the diagrams in the FSM. I don't think any load is on it then but that is where the wear is.
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The dogs look OK on all but the C bushing (14mm) sheared it's middle rib off and there was a missing roller bearing (11/12). The shaft looks OK, not sure what to check for wear on it.

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There is bad wear on the spare engine countershaft. There was a thin shim on the first shaft between the rachet and the large low gear that is not on the spare and is not on the diagram. Hmm?

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So hopefully you have another good gear on the spare motor to replace the damaged #11 gear. That thin bushing maybe a factory installed item to compensate for a space alignment issue on that shaft. I thought it was possibly that the ridge sheared off the bronze bushing #17. Mine had that ridge piece totally sheared and floating around on the shaft. It fooled me initially, until I realized where it came from when looking at the replacement bushing I had purchased.

I believe they are recommended to be replaced, as mine was worn internally too with play on the end shaft that was noticeable.
 
So hopefully you have another good gear on the spare motor to replace the damaged #11 gear. That thin bushing maybe a factory installed item to compensate for a space alignment issue on that shaft. I thought it was possibly that the ridge sheared off the bronze bushing #17. Mine had that ridge piece totally sheared and floating around on the shaft. It fooled me initially, until I realized where it came from when looking at the replacement bushing I had purchased.

I believe they are recommended to be replaced, as mine was worn internally too with play on the end shaft that was noticeable.


I should have used a different pan for the spare engine countershaft. Only the bottom picture is the spare parts. At least the spare gave me a decent #11 gear. The spindle shaft from the spare shows serious wear (a burr prevents removal of the C bushing), even though the spare had all it's roller bearings (12 of them). By contrast, the top pic shows a good spindle where the rollers run, although there was 1 roller missing.
 
That wear on that place on the countershaft is Very deep.

Caused by the roller bearings, all 12 in place. Weird. Raised a burr at both edges of damage and damage is only on the side you see, not all the way around. Something odd caused this, I'd like to know what.

It might be bent. This is from the spare engine, I'll use the other one.
 
That shaft with the spacer looks good, yet the bronze bushing has the raised ring sheared off like mine was too. Possibly that allowed the excessive edge wear on that gear that is damaged.
Check the shaft play around the bushing with the raised edge and the bronze bushing on the very end of the shaft. Both of mine were worn and needed replacement.
Lucky you have a spare set of parts to possibly use vs buying replacements which are expensive.
 
That shaft with the spacer looks good, yet the bronze bushing has the raised ring sheared off like mine was too. Possibly that allowed the excessive edge wear on that gear that is damaged.
Check the shaft play around the bushing with the raised edge and the bronze bushing on the very end of the shaft. Both of mine were worn and needed replacement.
Lucky you have a spare set of parts to possibly use vs buying replacements which are expensive.

Thanks for chiming in. This is new and full of things to check out. When you said the bronze bush at the end of the shaft, did you mean the one opposite end from the rachet pawl, i.e., item #1 which rides against the ends of the loose roller bearings? Mine is steel, not bronze, I believe. I know I will need the C bushing (#17) for sure, as the one which did not shear it's ridge is almost sheared anyway. Also, where did you obtain your bushings?
 
I used a variety of suppliers as I replaced both those end bushings and the #17 ridge bushing sleeve. DSS or CMS were suppliers and an Ebay vendor had a new replacement for the #2 piece made in Italy from a reproduction parts maker. Check these numbers as these are CL77 parts fiche numbers.

#1 bushing is part # 23931-259-010
#2 " " " # 28258-259-010
#17 sleeve bush # ?
 
That's interesting as the gear dogs seem to be straight cut on that transmission and the 1966 CL77 motor used a back cut dog. What year is the motor that you have there? It seems many changes took place over the span of the production of these bikes and motors.

Just between these two engines, only 2000 units apart, they changed the oil filter cover, making it much larger access.
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I used a variety of suppliers as I replaced both those end bushings and the #17 ridge bushing sleeve. DSS or CMS were suppliers and an Ebay vendor had a new replacement for the #2 piece made in Italy from a reproduction parts maker. Check these numbers as these are CL77 parts fiche numbers.

#1 bushing is part # 23931-259-010
#2 " " " # 28258-259-010
#17 sleeve bush # ?

DSS has the #17 bushing C or sleeve bushing for $54 then there is shipping. My end bushes seem pretty decent. I'm going to probably go with Jensen's suggestion, it looks pretty comprehensive and cost effective, considering all it covers.
 
Just send G-man a pm, he has some interesting solutions..

Thanks a bunch. Graham responded with a link to his instructions for a well thought out comprehensive solution. I'm sold, just need to get back to him. Has anybody here used his kit? I don't mind being the first, it looks good.
 
Thanks a bunch. Graham responded with a link to his instructions for a well thought out comprehensive solution. I'm sold, just need to get back to him. Has anybody here used his kit? I don't mind being the first, it looks good.

I will follow this too, as he did send me some info on the kit. I had already bought most of the parts noted from various suppliers already and soldiered on with those.
 
I will follow this too, as he did send me some info on the kit. I had already bought most of the parts noted from various suppliers already and soldiered on with those.

I'm sure what you did will cause your bike to outlast us probably. I saw Bill Silver on FB looking for some re-pop bushings and Graham (G-man) was explaining his kit. I could get by with what I have as the ridge on the sleeve bushing is only .75mm anyway, but I just think it's cool what Graham came up with.
 
The good C bushing is not much worn on it's ridge, according to Bill Silver's book it is only .75. I guess this one is just barely usable as a spare.
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The cotters look OK. 1 flat set, 2 sets .020" offset, and 1 set .040" offset. Hopefully all will work with G-man's kit.

Also found another extra non- Honda part, this 2mm copper shim which has become domed. It was next to the mainshaft bearing on the sprocket end.

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Also a shot of the thin .34mm shim next to the rachet, also not Honda. All these extra parts cause me concern, but I'll work it out in the assembly.
 
At first I thought some was funny with the rachet on the first engine. I saw the problem when I checked the spare. The pawl was in upside down and wore at an angle.
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This is correct.
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Shift forks seem straight, nothing rounded, some scuffing in the center. Not sure what side clearance in the gear grooves should be. The guide pin rollers look OK, I think (oops, no pic).
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I didn't pay much attention to what G Man had since I had already bought and received the parts for the build. Nice if you can get something that does it all from one supplier. That ridge on the bushing I would consider a replacement piece, since they shear off as you have seen on yours and mine did too. Too sketchy to reuse a part that is close to worn out and that could suffer the same fate.
 
I didn't pay much attention to what G Man had since I had already bought and received the parts for the build. Nice if you can get something that does it all from one supplier. That ridge on the bushing I would consider a replacement piece, since they shear off as you have seen on yours and mine did too. Too sketchy to reuse a part that is close to worn out and that could suffer the same fate.

About how thick was the ridge on your replacement bushing?
 
Shift forks seem straight, nothing rounded, some scuffing in the center. Not sure what side clearance in the gear grooves should be. The guide pin rollers look OK, I think (oops, no pic).

I wouldn't use those shift forks. Anytime you have that much scuffing and gouging it generally means they're bent, even if only slightly, and it's apparent these transmissions are easily forced into poor gear engagement. I realize they will be hard to find but the amount of gouging on them, particularly the bottom left, is not a good sign.
 
Welding up and grinding down can be done, so look for a nice set, and keep these, so you can work on them without the pressure of the build.
 
About how thick was the ridge on your replacement bushing?

I didn't measure the new bushing, as mine had severed the raised lip as noted. There was also some play on the old one when it was installed on the shaft to indicate internal rotational wear on the inside of the part. It was suggested to replace that bushing, as it seems to be a known wear problem with people who know these bikes better than me in these transmissions.

These are 60 year old parts too. Where the new part is a reproduction piece, that maybe has better metallurgy than the original part.

Regarding the shift forks they are identical, so there is no left or right piece, just the orientation on the shift drum. I would look for a better set and if no luck pick your best ones with the least wear. I did find a used shift drum and was able to use two decent ones from the two sets.

There's also the Cappellini reproduction ones at $299 US a set on Flea Bay... LOL. Non starter for me with the exchange rate and shipping to Canada.
 
I didn't measure the new bushing, as mine had severed the raised lip as noted. There was also some play on the old one when it was installed on the shaft to indicate internal rotational wear on the inside of the part. It was suggested to replace that bushing, as it seems to be a known wear problem with people who know these bikes better than me in these transmissions.

These are 60 year old parts too. Where the new part is a reproduction piece, that maybe has better metallurgy than the original part.

Regarding the shift forks they are identical, so there is no left or right piece, just the orientation on the shift drum. I would look for a better set and if no luck pick your best ones with the least wear. I did find a used shift drum and was able to use two decent ones from the two sets.

There's also the Cappellini reproduction ones at $299 US a set on Flea Bay... LOL. Non starter for me with the exchange rate and shipping to Canada.

Yes, those Capellini are too dear at $399. I have not measured the internal wear on the C bushing but you are right. The internal wear may precede the ridge failure, for all I know.
 
I wouldn't use those shift forks. Anytime you have that much scuffing and gouging it generally means they're bent, even if only slightly, and it's apparent these transmissions are easily forced into poor gear engagement. I realize they will be hard to find but the amount of gouging on them, particularly the bottom left, is not a good sign.

I was loathe to trust the speedos on machines this old but it seems that all in all the spare engine does have about 1/2 the mileage as the original, 10K vs. 20K. It may come down to using the two best but I have time to mull it over and keep hunting.
 
I was loathe to trust the speedos on machines this old but it seems that all in all the spare engine does have about 1/2 the mileage as the original, 10K vs. 20K. It may come down to using the two best but I have time to mull it over and keep hunting.

Here's an eBay listing for a low mileage complete transmission that looks really good and clean. No apparent wear on the shift forks and possibly lots of other good parts. Asking $98.US for the set or best offer.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/294821149301?hash=item44a4b5ba75:g:tmAAAOSw4rhiBsEy
 
I've purchased from that seller Dewey in the past;his parts were correctly listed and he has good seller communication.
 
I got it coming. Thanks for help in the hunt.

Good choice with only 5000 miles indicated on the motor its pretty new. There are likely parts in there that you can used beyond the shift forks. The kick starter pawl looks excellent vs yours. The gear sets and rollers are all in great shape it seems. The ridged bushing may also be good to use too.

Worth the price of admission I would think.
 
Good choice with only 5000 miles indicated on the motor its pretty new. There are likely parts in there that you can used beyond the shift forks. The kick starter pawl looks excellent vs yours. The gear sets and rollers are all in great shape it seems. The ridged bushing may also be good to use too.

Worth the price of admission I would think.

Definitely. Now that I'm waiting for parts, I began the upper end triage.
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Testing old, gunk filled engines is probably not telling me much, but I needed to have a reason to not just stick it in and nurse a sicko engine (or worse).
 
Still seeing double

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Looks like standard pistons to me. No markings for OS.

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Bores smooth, no ridges, scratches. Under 60, pistons crowns at 59.9. Ordered the last set of std rings. I'm feeling positive until I pull the jugs. Heads look good, maybe I'll get off easy.
 
None of those shift forks in the picture look usable, you don't see rub marks in the center unless they are bent.
Shift forks seem straight, nothing rounded, some scuffing in the center. Not sure what side clearance in the gear grooves should be. The guide pin rollers look OK, I think (oops, no pic).
vCRUjKH.jpg
 
Replacements on the way. I'll hang on to all the rejects and scheme a way to refurbish or donate to someone who can. Capelini sent me a discount offer for $379 a pair!
 
Re-pop tensioner wheels ?

Surely someone makes these wheels. Trying to understand why the pivot/rivet head looks so weird. An oval allen and nut would have plenty of room.

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Surely someone makes these wheels. Trying to understand why the pivot/rivet head looks so weird. An oval allen and nut would have plenty of room.

That is an odd head on that riveted shaft. I've always been reluctant to try replacing the roller, you can't be sure what other rubber would hold up under the constant use against the cam chain and we've seen some use a sprocket instead but have never known what their reliability has been. It's a lot easier to find decent used tensioners for the later twins, not so much for the 305. Did you PM Bill Silver to see what he might have available? or email [email protected]
 
I went through this recently with mine as the tensioner was in the same shape as yours is presently. No luck on a NOS part anywhere so I kept looking on eBay and found a used one that looked pretty decent and bought it. You can never tell though and when it arrived it was quite good, so it is going into my motor build. I did consider Cappellini, as they have a gear wheel and a replacement shaft that the gear rides on for a solution. It looks like you would have to have the existing shaft area machined out to remove the old part. Then the supplied new shaft has a bolt/screw affair to attach the gear wheel part into your old assembly.

I think the part was around $120US for the basic kit as described above. If you wanted the complete turn key assembly with all the parts it was quite a bit more like $350US. I will try to find the seller and the part again to give you an idea. They are in the LA area, as I bought a few items from them already and good to deal with... just expensive parts.

There are two sizes of the rubber wheel on that tensioner, so two kits are available depending on the rubber wheel/gear size.

Here's the link to Cappellini in italy and their website with Euro prices. I tried to buy direct, as they are way cheaper and phoned them. No cigar!

They use a European distributor and a US distributor and they both upcharge big time based on their website's Euro prices. Those shift forks are 150 Euros which would be about $200.00 Canadian.
The US distributor is $512.00 Canadian with todays exchange rate, plus shipping and Canadian taxes would be well over $600.00. :angry:

;)I'm in the wrong business it appears.

http://www.cappellinimoto.it/catalog/motorbike/CB72/product


Here's the US based stealer....I mean dealer on eBay. https://www.ebay.ca/usr/valtermotousa

At least your paying in US currency so that helps a lot.
 
That is an odd head on that riveted shaft. I've always been reluctant to try replacing the roller, you can't be sure what other rubber would hold up under the constant use against the cam chain and we've seen some use a sprocket instead but have never known what their reliability has been. It's a lot easier to find decent used tensioners for the later twins, not so much for the 305. Did you PM Bill Silver to see what he might have available? or email [email protected]

I was perusing Bill's repair guide and he mentioned some possibilities in the "performance modifications" section pg.74. He recommended either a Z-1 Kawasaki (or CB450) or custom made steel or hard nylon/teflon roller. Think I'll measure up and check ebay for CB450 rollers. Staked nut and bolt. Done.
 
If you find something please post a link here. The two sizes of the rollers are 35mm or 39mm from what I can tell. I just looked at mine again and while it is good with the raised middle edges on the wheel still present from the factory, the roller is petrified rubber for sure.
 
I was perusing Bill's repair guide and he mentioned some possibilities in the "performance modifications" section pg.74. He recommended either a Z-1 Kawasaki (or CB450) or custom made steel or hard nylon/teflon roller. Think I'll measure up and check ebay for CB450 rollers. Staked nut and bolt. Done.

That tuff polyurethane stuff that 4x4 suspension bushings are made of would be great. Here is the specs from my pretty good one.
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Probably a 6mm bolt and nut or even a 10mm OD sleeve and then n&b. I'll tear one apart. Also measured chain at 5mm inside.
 
If you find something please post a link here. The two sizes of the rollers are 35mm or 39mm from what I can tell. I just looked at mine again and while it is good with the raised middle edges on the wheel still present from the factory, the roller is petrified rubber for sure.

Ridge is about 2mm high, so 2(2)+35=39 overall dia.
 
S'cuse my drawring. I took it apart and updated my specs. The weird rivet catches and funnels oil into the bearing sleeves. The swaged tabs broke, of course, so maybe drill and tap a short screw for re-assembly if re-using the sleeve bearing and rivet. I did not measure the fixed/cast in place/ pressed in steel outer sleeve but retaining that is probably smart, even with Delrin.

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This kind of a side project because I have 1 useable tensioner right now and I have bigger fish to fry.
 
Ringsgone

Both motors attacked by metal mice. only one top ring intact. I could barely feel any wear with finger so I ordered std rings. My plans belong on the comedy channel. Clean, measure, weep.

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