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Blue Dream CA78

Interesting considerations Jensen. The truth is, like many things, I've never done it and probably don't know what I'm missing. True, 80+mph is rare on a Dream for me but the new Yuanxing YX-P22 tyres in 3.50x16 may be not as consistent in their mass. I've got 185.2cm circumference. Not sure how significant a change from standard full size wheels this would cause if unbalanced to a significant degree. Something to consider, nonetheless. Do you use the internal beads in the tube for balancing or another method?
Thanks for the primer.
 
ballbearian said:
I've never even really seen the need to add balance weights but I'm not on the strip or track either.
Click to expand...

I was speaking more to the flat spots in rims that can be mostly straightened, but to your point I haven't had to balance many wheels either if the balance mark on the tire was aligned with the valve stem. I find that if they're that close to balanced without a weight, even at speeds up to 100 mph I've not felt any detectable wheel hop or imbalance. Though I like to do things right and as correct as possible, sometimes there's no need to overthink things.
 
Maybe it has something to do with doing it yourself versus it's done by the tire-shop. Balancing wheels is standard (dynamic), and always included in the process of changing the tires, just as adjust the tension of the spokes. A friend of my changes my tires, and for the price of the tires, he's doing all those things while he's in there.
 
ancientdad said:
I was speaking more to the flat spots in rims that can be mostly straightened, but to your point I haven't had to balance many wheels either if the balance mark on the tire was aligned with the valve stem. I find that if they're that close to balanced without a weight, even at speeds up to 100 mph I've not felt any detectable wheel hop or imbalance. Though I like to do things right and as correct as possible, sometimes there's no need to overthink things.
Click to expand...

No discernable balance mark on these chinese tyres. They mounted pretty good, even all around the bead. All I can do now is hand spin once in the frame and hope the bearing seals don't drag enough to find out if there is a 'heavy' spot. I gave the rim work my best shot, but will be awhile before a top speed test run.
 
Would warming the hub with a heat gun be useful to reduce bearing seal drag?

My Slovenian made moped tires also had no discernible balance Mark.
 
jensen said:
Maybe it has something to do with doing it yourself versus it's done by the tire-shop. Balancing wheels is standard (dynamic), and always included in the process of changing the tires, just as adjust the tension of the spokes. A friend of my changes my tires, and for the price of the tires, he's doing all those things while he's in there.
Click to expand...

Yes, all DIY by necessity and choice. If I feel anything amiss riding I will seek out a dynamic machine test. Being an old bicycle mechanic, I've built many hundreds of bicycle wheels, but this is my first complete motorcycle wheel build (except for a few moped wheels).
 
Yes, all DIY by necessity and choice. If I feel anything amiss riding I will seek out a dynamic machine test. Being an old bicycle mechanic, I've built many hundreds of bicycle wheels, but this is my first complete motorcycle wheel build (except for a few moped wheels).
Click to expand...

Nice, everyday you learn ! Since this is a merely US located website (most members are US citizens) I see that the way people looking at doing things themself or outsource work is different. I can change tires myself, but if there is a shop on the opposite of the street I'm living in, is doing it for me, and at the same time I help my "neighbour" financially a bit by ordering tires and outsource the work to him. In these harsh times, small family businesses are struggling to survive against the big company's, one way to help those small and knowledgeable company's is to outsource work to them.
 
The front was a lot easier. Less rust. I clear coated the hub centers and the spokes. Laced up symetric again. The front bearings seemed fine so I didn't even remove and repack with fresh grease. Figured I'd better post something shiny so nobody thinks I'm slacking.
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I went for the Niche Cycle tytronic unit as it seemed the same as others I've seen and the price was cheaper, $120.
 
Mmm. Nice spoke spanner Mr Ballbearian! I'm making do with a 4" shifter - or 'adjustable wrench' in USA parlance!

Also impressed with the electronic ignition. I've seen reference to these, but not paid a lot of attention. Sure, points are simple to adjust and replace as required, but I suspect the timing could be made much more accurate with electronic, AND be more stable during higher revs. Will await your road test when the time comes.(y)
 
Hondaholic said:
Mmm. Nice spoke spanner Mr Ballbearian! I'm making do with a 4" shifter - or 'adjustable wrench' in USA parlance!

Also impressed with the electronic ignition. I've seen reference to these, but not paid a lot of attention. Sure, points are simple to adjust and replace as required, but I suspect the timing could be made much more accurate with electronic, AND be more stable during higher revs. Will await your road test when the time comes.(y)
Click to expand...

Thanks. The nipple gripper is marked 5.0 but has been filed out to 5.68 to fit these 60's-70's Honda spokes. After years of repetitive motion injuries from wrenching with the typical doughnut type, I gave myself a treat.

The NOS points are ridiculous if you can find them for the US market bikes and cost more than half what this EI did. If it functions better as you say at WOT then all's good.
 
Since my points perform perfectly up to over 10,500 rpm I don't know that it will function any better on yours at high revs, but I'm sure it will help the idle and make starting easier as well, most who install one report that. I'm sure there are more, but I know of at least one member who bought a Tytronic and was not overly impressed with it... but I'm considering the source in that case. More good looking work on the shiny stuff, prettier than it came from the factory.
 
I remembered to get the taillight wires routed up the fender and inner fender panel before getting the rear wheel in place. I also put in a separate ground wire as I rubber mount the light with a piece of inner tube due to the common stress fractures that seem to plague all these CA type bodies at the bolt holes, which I did tact weld before paint.
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Had to pause long enough to do a hurried job of emblem paint to go with all the polishing of the fender braces. Had to sand away the extra paint from trying to use a craft syringe instead of a fine brush and found out that you can't polish after you paint, the buffer takes out the paint.
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The rear shocks have pretty pitted chrome but will match the handlebars so this bike will still tell the tale of being "rode hard and put away wet" as my Grampa used to say.
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I found that the dremel with a scotch brite wheel was about right for knocking of the grey stains and remnants of clearcoat on the front brake plate. Glad I've got useable brake shoes all round as well as a tolerable rear sprocket. Soon to be a roller after cleaning the speedo drive and last polishing chores.
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Thought I would drop by and see how you are doing. Looking good. so far. Just for info the clutch adjuster on the 77 is on the right but works the same as the 95 and others.


Bill H
 
It's a roller!

The front wheel came together a lot easier. The bearings were good, I didn't even pop em out and regrease. The front brake pads were 2/3 good, so that was a happy find. Putting the front fender on required dropping the front suspension due to that one piece arm. I could have hoisted the whole front up 3 feet in the air, but I opted for juggling the fender and suspension together to put it in. Did I scratch the fender? Of course!

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I did clean and grease the speedo drive. I left out the felt seals on the rear pivots of the link arm. I hope that does not come back to plague me. I thought of sticking some nitrile O rings in there but forgot. I noticed that these Dreams squeak a lot from the front suspension, both this one and my buddy Charles' 65. There are plastic sleeves under the springs on the dampers that get gritty and dry, so I cleaned and oiled as best I could. Seemed to work, nice and quiet.

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I think I'm liking these YuanXing tyres, they are 3.50 x16, not 3.25 stock but they fit good. no clearance problems and sturdy 6 ply, probably some of the best China's got. They came spiral wrapped with spacer blocks to keep their shape in shipping/storage, not bad for $53 a pop and they were available on ebay. Probably end up getting a set for Charles so he can get off of his original ribbed 57 year old tyre. I'll put his 3.25 Duro 308 on the front of the Benly 150 to match it's rear. Should fit, the fenders are not the same and definitely skinnier on the Benly.

I may keep dithering around with the electrical stuff and controls but, I want to get the motor squared away too, before it's reunion with the bike. Either way, I'll be spending a king's ransom on kerosene or it's single digits temps, then I give up.
 
The cold has definitely slowed me down. I drug a few small things inside to clean up, like the speedo, light sockets and ignition switch.

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I used a paint can opener to ease off the bezel cover on the parts bike speedo that had some rust dust in it. I figured it would be good practice before I open my 'good' one. The clock part seems ok but the odometer drive worm gear is toast. I t is an early one that does not have a high beam indicator. Thought I'd post a pic of the guts here in case anyone is curious about what is inside a Dream speedo.

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Still need to clean up the starter solenoid and test the two coils I have. Replace coil leads, if good. Also finish the petcock and tank.
 
Too cold in the garage so I brought in some of the small stuff. The speedo, light sockets and ignition switch were needing attention and LED bulbs. I pried open the bezel on the extra speedo, as it had some rust dust come out of it when I took it off of the parts bike.

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The odometer drive portion of this speedo was toast even though the clock part freed up.

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The starter solenoid and coils are next.
 
Eek! Got some work ahead on that speedo/odometer.

Must concede that I'm also partial to occupying the kitchen bench with Honda parts!!:biggrin:
 
Headlamp reflector surgery

I actually have a working OEM headlamp, 35-20 watt. Since I have a few dead, crusty ones, I thought I'd like to have a replaceable bulb, brighter LED light and a decent reflector. To kill two birds with one stone, I bought a cheap 5 3/4" round lamp with H4 socket. I cut the edge and lense off the new donor with a dremel cut off wheel and cut the center of a rusty stock reflector out. Used JBweld to glue the new reflector into the old square reflector frame.

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A little rattle can of the most reflective spray I could find.

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I posted a question in the 305 Electrical section to find out the wiring on these LED bulbs. It's not really the same as the OEM incandescent bulbs.

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The LED is rated at 55 watt and it is very much brighter than the original. The OEM is 55 watt total so I hope this will be within stator capabilities. Since my electrical skills are novice level, I may have to wait until the bike runs to see if it will work ok. Any feedback, criticism or expertise is appreciated.
 
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I Very Much like that improvement on the stock headlight with an LED ! :cool:
I hope the LED bulb is the brightest one you can find because it never hurts to
See and Be Seen on a bike.

Do you plan on giving a little more power to the engine also :) ?

These are very good pictures:Imgur ?
 
bilbikek411 said:
I Very Much like that improvement on the stock headlight with an LED ! :cool:
I hope the LED bulb is the brightest one you can find because it never hurts to
See and Be Seen on a bike.

Do you plan on giving a little more power to the engine also :) ?

These are very good pictures:Imgur ?
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yes, Imgur. Ask Ancientdad if you need an excellent tutorial set up.

The engine should be running but, I don't really know if it needs any rebuilding. Even so, Dreams are not going to be real power houses with only one carb.

The LED is 55watt, the original incandescent is 35+20=55watt. I don't want to exceed my stator output.
 
ballbearian said:
Thanks. Yes, Imgur. Ask Ancientdad if you need an excellent tutorial set up.

The engine should be running but, I don't really know if it needs any rebuilding. Even so, Dreams are not going to be real power houses with only one carb.

The LED is 55watt, the original incandescent is 35+20=55watt. I don't want to exceed my stator output.
Click to expand...


I was curious what the LED draws compared to the amount of light it puts out.
 
Longdistancerider says that 55watts is too much for charging system. If I had to guess, he's probably right because he always is. Another thing he steered me to is that the two lighting circuits (high and low) are not on at the same time. IOW, either 35watts or 20watts are drawn not 55watts. Here is a pic of the 55watt LED on the left and the incandescent OEM on the right. Note: the OEM has both circuits connected for 55watt total, not the way the Dream switch functions.

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Another shot of the back side of my converted reflector. This job was the largest time consumer. vintagehondashop.com has a 'kit' for $55 that includes the LED bulb (watts not stated) and a LED tailight bulb. Converting an original Dream lamp requires a donor bulb reciever as well and is stated to be a simple job with a dremel. I easily spent 2-3 hours, first, finding a suitable round container for a pattern to scribe a 118mm circle on the old reflector, second, cutting the maximum 126mm reflector out of the new ebay 5 3/4" round headlight, third, lining up and JBwelding the 10mm overlap (it's on an angle). Not too simple but, I'm happy. Now to find an appropriate bulb, this time, with 2 circuits so I can have separate high and low beam functions.

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Big Clear Hooters

Clear Hooters made in England! I love it, reminds me of the high quality that my old Raleigh's have, solid, great chrome and finish. No idea how old they are. Boy, do they work, loud as a Canadian Trucker protest. One has a "L" and the other a "H" and they claxon in harmony. They came on the bike,. mounted to a crash bar and only one was hooked up. Maybe drew too much power and blew the neighbor's eardrums.

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I've got an OEM on the way. I just don't know if the Hooters would scare the fellow travelers. Honk Honk.
 
I like that wheel truing machine. Did the Dream come with those raised flange wheels? The CL77 has them and mine need a full on plating restoration and will be going to the chrome platers shortly. I have looked for other replacements in the same design to avoid replating them, since it will be expensive, yet the aluminum rims are also quite expensive. The Borrani ones are crazy expensive and even the knock off ones are not cheap.
 
Flyin900 said:
I like that wheel truing machine. Did the Dream come with those raised flange wheels? The CL77 has them and mine need a full on plating restoration and will be going to the chrome platers shortly. I have looked for other replacements in the same design to avoid replating them, since it will be expensive, yet the aluminum rims are also quite expensive. The Borrani ones are crazy expensive and even the knock off ones are not cheap.
Click to expand...

Thanks, but my truing jig is just the spare rusty swing arm(rear fork) from the parts bike with a clamped on bar for the clothes pins to set against the rim. Primitive but it works. Not sure what raised flanges you mean. They are stock aluminum hubs and stock chromed steel rims that have a lot of elbow grease in the cleaning and shining. See posts #52 and #62 therebouts to see the orange fiber abrasive wheel in electric drill used to de oxidize the hubs (used on the steel rims too). They were also sanded, polished on the buffer and the center ribs clear coated. Glad you liked the look, a lot of work went into them.
 
ballbearian said:
Thanks, but my truing jig is just the spare rusty swing arm(rear fork) from the parts bike with a clamped on bar for the clothes pins to set against the rim. Primitive but it works. Not sure what raised flanges you mean. They are stock aluminum hubs and stock chromed steel rims that have a lot of elbow grease in the cleaning and shining. See posts #52 and #62 therebouts to see the orange fiber abrasive wheel in electric drill used to de oxidize the hubs (used on the steel rims too). They were also sanded, polished on the buffer and the center ribs clear coated. Glad you liked the look, a lot of work went into them.
Click to expand...

They look excellent:very nice from before.. to After ! :cool:
 
Warming the Wiring in Winter

Temps above freezing let me warm the shop enough to get up from the cozy kitchen table cluttered with sub- assemblies like headlamp, handlebar switches, speedo and it's indicator lights. Every little thing on this bike is either rusted, bent or worn. I'm not complaining, it has kept my primary contact point warm. Cold, stiff wires are not very cooperative for re-installing the main harness. All contacts and connections cleaned, dielectric greased, and most soldering done. Sheathing repaired.
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My early '64 has it's wiring harness sub contractor manufacture date tag of 1963. Besides a few frayed bullet connector conections, it was in good shape, beside the usual cracked sheathing at the steering area, which got a careful gray tape overwrap. The OEM wiring was pretty high quality materials and workmanship, IMO. I remembered, this time, there is a spring clip bracket inside the headlight bucket to hold the 6 pin connector block fixing the key switch to the harness.
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Even the starter solenoid got overhauled. The electromagnetic push rod inside should move free with your finger and clean up the fat flat contacts which are the copper bolt connections to the battery and starter cables. Goobers of dielectric grease on the contacts for sure. Original selenium rectifier was working but I had a new silicone unit ready and I want full charging capability. Also made a spot for a winker relay, which the bike never had. I'm still fooling with the coil.
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Pulling the control switches wiring through the handlebars is fun (this time I remembered to deburr the sharp edges of the handlebar wiring holes, especially at the bottom/center, where they always get cut) and you can still see the pull wires I used to get them through, because.......
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I'm putting the winkers on the ends of the bars

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They don't mess with the looks of a Dream like most add-ons do. Not as bright and not so noticeable in daylight as separate mounted type but they are cool at night because they have a constant white running light (yellow blink) that is quite distinctive from the rear. Following my friend Charles's '65 on dark rural twisty roads is sweet cause I can see exactly his handlebar movements and and outline of his body positions.
They don't draw squat power and are cheap, so maybe put another set to the rear if I can find a way that blends with the Dream.

Sub assembly distractions are fun (to me), but I need to get cracking on the Honda Motor Company motor.
 
ballbearian said:
Temps above freezing let me warm the shop enough to get up from the cozy kitchen table cluttered with sub- assemblies like headlamp, handlebar switches, speedo and it's indicator lights. Every little thing on this bike is either rusted, bent or worn. I'm not complaining, it has kept my primary contact point warm. Cold, stiff wires are not very cooperative for re-installing the main harness. All contacts and connections cleaned, dielectric greased, and most soldering done. Sheathing repaired.

My early '64 has it's wiring harness sub contractor manufacture date tag of 1963. Besides a few frayed bullet connector conections, it was in good shape, beside the usual cracked sheathing at the steering area, which got a careful gray tape overwrap. The OEM wiring was pretty high quality materials and workmanship, IMO. I remembered, this time, there is a spring clip bracket inside the headlight bucket to hold the 6 pin connector block fixing the key switch to the harness.

Even the starter solenoid got overhauled. The electromagnetic push rod inside should move free with your finger and clean up the fat flat contacts which are the copper bolt connections to the battery and starter cables. Goobers of dielectric grease on the contacts for sure. Original selenium rectifier was working but I had a new silicone unit ready and I want full charging capability. Also made a spot for a winker relay, which the bike never had. I'm still fooling with the coil.

Pulling the control switches wiring through the handlebars is fun (this time I remembered to deburr the sharp edges of the handlebar wiring holes, especially at the bottom/center, where they always get cut) and you can still see the pull wires I used to get them through, because.......


I'm putting the winkers on the ends of the bars

They don't mess with the looks of a Dream like most add-ons do. Not as bright and not so noticeable in daylight as separate mounted type but they are cool at night because they have a constant white running light (yellow blink) that is quite distinctive from the rear. Following my friend Charles's '65 on dark rural twisty roads is sweet cause I can see exactly his handlebar movements and and outline of his body positions.
They don't draw squat power and are cheap, so maybe put another set to the rear if I can find a way that blends with the Dream.

Sub assembly distractions are fun (to me), but I need to get cracking on the Honda Motor Company motor.
Click to expand...

So basically you'll have a restomod because of those slick turn signals and the high performance cable adjusters, LOL

It's coming along well. Vintage Connections has OEM style gray sheathing for the harness if you were inclined.
 
If I do the sheathing the rest of the herd might get jealous. If I don't find a battery/tool tray, I may make one out of WOOD, then it'll be more resto-rat, and the paint too, that's some high end ghetto work there.
I think the adjusters add a little corona virus motif also.
 
ancientdad said:
So basically you'll have a restomod because of those slick turn signals and the high performance cable adjusters, LOL

It's coming along well. Vintage Connections has OEM style gray sheathing for the harness if you were inclined.
Click to expand...

Yes they have a great selection of wire and connectors and I just bought a bunch of the grey and black sheathing and the quality is good just like OEM. They also have the grey and black tape for the wiring and I attached the old Honda part# tag off my old wiring harness on the CL77 onto the new OEM style harness I bought for this build.

Your work on the bike is very good given the starting state. I didn't see your post on this initially, yet now I have looked through the compete file it is impressive. One suggestion is if you have buffing machines, then Caswells sells a razor buff that I bought a few months back and it polishes the inner sections of the hubs with those raised ridges in short order. It is a 1/8" thick X 6" round sisal material style buff.
An aircraft paint stripper from Dominion Sure Seal also makes quick work of old clearcoat, so when buffing the hubs or motor cases it is a breeze too.


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That is good to know about the thin sisal (I have a 1 inch). With the level of corrosion/oxidation on the hubs I've found little resistance to remove any surviving traces of clear coat. Those abrasive fiber wheels are as aggressive as a course wire wheel. I did not sand the center ribs, only clear coat. Outer surfaces were sanded then buffed, no clearcoat. I still have an un-opened can of aircraft stripper.

That new sheathing does look nice. If I were to repaint later, I definitely would.
 
Coil testing

Armed with my cheapo HF meter, set at 200 ohms, and member nabs post
ignition coil testing question (vintagehondatwins.com)
along with expert guidance from 66Sprint. I tested the primary winding at 7.7 ohms. Then performed the two taped plug test and got spark as well as the needle gap test at 6mm. Both, main and spare coils seem good.
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Question, I have is how to check the secondary winding resistance? I put the probes every which way I could think of but my electrical skills suffer from riding on the short bus there.

Also had no luck testing the OEM spark plug caps (non-resistor, I believe) but they must work because the two plug test worked. I don't know if the pair from the parts bike can be saved. The wire clip inside was pretty rusty. I got one unscrewed and would have to fab a new clip wire but at least I've got a good pair.

I'll replace plug wires per member ashimoto's post and dropbox later.

Ignition coil fix.doc (dropbox.com)
 
The primary coils are in the low ohms scale as you noted usually 4-8 ohms, while the secondary's are in the K ohm scale usually 12-15K, so you need to be on the 20K ohm setting or higher. If your still on the low ohm setting you will get no reading.
As an aside, personally I would replace the spark plug caps regardless of the measurement. They are cheap to buy new and the resistance caps have a habit of the internal resistor failing at some point and then your chasing your tail.
Not worth using old caps IMO.
 
One thing to be sure of when measuring resistance with this specific meter, before measuring resistance of anything touch the two test leads together. Subtract resistance measured with both test leads touching each other from any other resistances measured. This will help your accuracy with an inexpensive meter.
 
Does it matter which probes are used i.e. is there a polarity to be mindful of? I would go from spark plug wire to bracket (ground) for checking the secondary, correct?

Also, here are the caps. One pair disassembled and no resistor visible.

7EWyqCsh.jpg
 
No polarity here, imagine it's just a spool of wire inside and you're measuring both ends of the wire.
Most every coil has two little wires, that's the primary winding. Some have two high tension leads, some have one. Your coil has 2 so put your Ohm meter on those. The bracket shouldn't be connected to any of these wires.
 
When I pulled the outer covering off the coils, I saw some datings on the wires. The one from my 64 had 1963 but the other one from the older parts bike had 1970, which is after the Dream production ended. I guess that bike had a post production OEM replacement coil at some point.

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Engine work

Ugly oil, mismatched plugs and missing crank stud nut and wrong bottom case bolt gives me a not too warm feeling.

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The front most studs are a little bent at the tips. I could fix that but why are they bent there? A lot to check out here for me. I didn't pull the heads yet because I ran a cold compression test and got 75 lbs. both sides. Not sure which way to go from here. Have the spare engine to explore too. Any advice appreciated.

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I've been reading the Engine and Transmission section on these types here. Good stuff. Opened up the bottoms of this engine and the spare to have a look and clean up. Got some gear tooth damage on the countershaft 3-gear (lower 2nd from right) and the kick start pawl flange looks a bit bent. I will get better pics once cleaned up. Low compression (75lbs.) means I'll be assessing the top ends too. I've not much experience at this but it's fun to teach an old dog new tricks.

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That's interesting as the gear dogs seem to be straight cut on that transmission and the 1966 CL77 motor used a back cut dog. What year is the motor that you have there? It seems many changes took place over the span of the production of these bikes and motors.
 
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