Ethanol: the carb killer

[jkv45]

If you are near an airport (even a small one) you can typically get Avgas which is non-ethanol and has high octane also (100+)
Avgas also has high lead content which is beneficial to our engines.

https://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html


You'll want 100LL and not Jet A.

My son runs it in his SuperMoto CRFs with higher compression pistons.

Works well.

[jstrummer]

I guess I'm just a cranky old man, "hey, get off my...," but I don't know why people include gifs in their posts. Am I supposed to read the post, or watch at the gif? Like music on youtube videos, while someone is talking about how to overhaul a Keihin 723 carb. Anyway, if you're using firefox and want to turn off gifs-

• Type "about:config" in the address bar.
• Click "I accept the risk!" when it comes up.
• Find "image.animation" using the search box (just type "anim")
• Double-click "image. animation_mode."
• In the next box, type either "once," so the animated GIFs only get one chance to play, or "none" so they never can.

(Thanks, google)

And by the way, thank you Nick_Brox for an very informative post. I'll be using non-ethanol fuel in the bike when I get it on the road. Fortunately, there's some about two miles away.


Cheers

[jensen]

Our problems with ethanol are far worse than what's been brought up so far.
The stuff is death to our valves and valve seats, they get decayed like bad teeth after a while.
Now seats can be reground of course, but on one beloved model (CB/CL450 DOHC) this often times leads to worse issues of valve extrusion.
At least 50% of the 450's I've seen have (probably) ethanol related damage in this way.

Most problems with Ethanol are due to not riding the bike regularly and avoiding costs to adept the bike to new fuels. If you want to ride these bikes, change the rubbers and gaskets in your carbs with ethanol resistant rubber and replace the valve seats for Ethanol resistant ones.

Problems solved.

I added over 20.000 km's on my bomber after rebuild including replacing the seats and valves, no issue's with Ethanol (10-15 %). We are not allowed to ride the bike in winter, so I add a stabilizer before parking the bike with a full gas tank to avoid rust.

It's almost impossible to get ethanol free patrol in the Netherlands, and I think that now the US signed the Paris Climate Agreement, it won't be long that the US faces the same situation under the flag of environment and sustainability (and this is not a political statement, just an observation).

[tbpmusic]

Problem is that replacing valve seats will cost around $135-$150 per valve - if you can find a machinist willing to do it......

[jensen]

Replacing mine costed me 100 euro per valve, not that expensive taking into account that you upgrade your bike and make it withstand modern gas. It also depends what your intention was for buying a bike this age. If people thought it was a cheap ride, they're wrong. Riding a classic bike as being a modern bike will cost you. Buying them cheap doesn't mean you don't have to spend money.

For some reason people think that parts and work on a classic bike should be cheap because the bike is old (nice if possible !), but the reality is different. Look at the prices of parts of modern bikes, if someone thinks that 800 euro is expensive for a set of NOS mufflers of a 450, take a look at a modern muffler system of any given Japanese bike today.

[oupa]

I am far, far from even a novice on this subject. Carburetors and I generally speaking, do not have good relationships. It is a subject I've gone back on forth on though, mostly due to the doom and gloom predictions that seems to follow it. Always with boo coos of "personal experiences" attached to each story. I'm not doubting ANY of that. I'm not suggesting that anyone else should, but... here's another view. Offered simply to show there IS another view. You'll have to be the judge. Me? I STILL haven't decided if it's the worst things that ever happened to gas, or something else. What I do know is that usually, it's the only thing available today.

https://motorcycleproject.com/

Scroll to near the bottom under the "Tech Articles" heading, then scroll to "Ethanol good or bad?"

[msanford]

Hey, is ok to go back-n-forth from VP Vintage Fuel then to 100LL Jet fuel then back or mixing when going from one to the other? Thanks

[LongDistanceRider]

Not sure why you would run 100+ octane fuel in an engine designed for 86. But there shouldn't be a problem other than a light wallet.

[J-T]

100LL is aviation gasoline, not jet fuel (that would not work). Not aware of problems with high octane causing damage but it provides no benefit either if your engine doesn't require it. The lead content could be beneficial in bikes older than mid 70s, someone may have experience with lead in newer bikes.

[msanford]

Not sure why you would run 100+ octane fuel in an engine designed for 86. But there shouldn't be a problem other than a light wallet.

Not doing it for the 100 octane, but rather the no ethanol. I know folks on this string earlier said to just use regular gas plus Stabil. I was certainly going that way. Then I worked out all of my carb issues that drove me crazy for the past year. I finally replaced the carbs and now the bike runs great. The mechanic I worked with and some others swear by the VP Vintage fuel stuff. But Geez that stuff is crazy high (~$93 / 5 gal drum). @76Twin said on page 1 of this string that 100LL AV is a good option. I live really close to a small airport and the gas is only a $1/gal more than car gas. Others have suggested this plane fuel too in other groups and local friends. I think I am moving that direction. It's hobby gas, not commuting gas, so I guess I am okay with the cost for now.

I have to re-read all the other responses and maybe it's already been commented on but is ok both 100LL and VP vintage get sloshed together in the tank at the same time? Or do I need to burn one all the way down before mixing in the other? Thanks

[LongDistanceRider]

I can't see any issues with a blend of the 2 fuels.

[Richard Pitman]

In the UK I've switched over to Esso E5 fuel, which currently has zero ethanol content.

Our Synergy Supreme+ 99 petrol has more cleaning power than our regular petrol – and includes molecules whose job it is to reduce the friction in your engine helping the moving parts work more efficiently.*Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.


There’s currently no requirement for renewable fuel, like ethanol, to be present in super unleaded petrol although this could change in the future, in which case we would comply with any new legislation.

[Maraakate]

I wouldn't put 100LL specifically in there if you don't have to. The lead content may end up fouling your spark plugs in the long run. Hope you keep spares just in case. Otherwise, it's probably OK.

There are two sites that track ethanol free gas stations. Maybe there is one closer to you than you think and you can avoid putting the aviation fuel in your bike. One is Pure Gas, https://www.pure-gas.org/, the other is Buy Real Gas https://www.buyrealgas.com/.

[Maraakate]

Project Farm did a comparison of the lucas ethanol fuel stabilizer product over the span of a year with various ethanol fuel grades to see if it had any effect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvS_D4_lF5U

I can say from personal experience, that product did not help as well I would have liked it to. Stabil Marine worked somewhat well. I've found, strictly by accident, that ethanol gas mixed with two stroke oil seems to hold up quite well. I had mopeds where I was lazy and forgot to drain their tanks and they sat for over a year and they were still able to start and run. Not sure if this would have the effect of potentially fouling the plugs on a 4T engine if you continually used 2T oil mixed in with the gas. So do this at your own risk.

[msanford]

vp gas.PNG

I wouldn't put 100LL specifically in there if you don't have to. The lead content may end up fouling your spark plugs in the long run. Hope you keep spares just in case. Otherwise, it's probably OK.

There are two sites that track ethanol free gas stations. Maybe there is one closer to you than you think and you can avoid putting the aviation fuel in your bike. One is Pure Gas, https://www.pure-gas.org/, the other is Buy Real Gas https://www.buyrealgas.com/.

First, thanks for the websites! I continue to keep my eyes open for a gas station that sells no ethanol gas. I'm in a bit of desert for those gas stations apparently being in Delaware. Gotta get further out in Central PA or down in MD.

What I don't understand from your message is the lead and spark plugs. The really good fuel VP Vintage, currently ~$25/gal :o has lead. So I thought lead is good?

[stl360+450]

First, thanks for the websites! I continue to keep my eyes open for a gas station that sells no ethanol gas. I'm in a bit of desert for those gas stations apparently being in Delaware. Gotta get further out in Central PA or down in MD.

I used an Android app called Pure Gas to locate gas stations with no ethanol options in my area. The closest is about 40 miles away, so I fill up two gas cans at a time. If I were riding the same bike every day, I wouldn't worry as much about the ethanol, but if a bike might sit for a week or two at a time, I prefer to use pure gas.

[msanford]

if a bike might sit for a week or two at a time, I prefer to use pure gas.

Why is this? I hear this all the time. Even if the bike is running a lot, the carbs and all the seals, jets, etc would still be in contact 24/7 with the ethanol. How does very regularly riding with ethanol gas limit problems or damage? Thanks

[stl360+450]

if a bike might sit for a week or two at a time, I prefer to use pure gas.

Why is this? I hear this all the time. Even if the bike is running a lot, the carbs and all the seals, jets, etc would still be in contact 24/7 with the ethanol. How does very regularly riding with ethanol gas limit problems or damage? Thanks

My experience has been that E15 sitting in the fuel lines and carburetor tends to gel very quickly. I would notice this through either buildup in the float needle/seat or blockages in the idle circuit. I haven't experimented with fuel additives or stabilizers, but I've been using the pure gas since last summer and I feel like it's been worth my effort to drive the 40 miles to buy it.

[ballbearian]

Why is this? I hear this all the time. Even if the bike is running a lot, the carbs and all the seals, jets, etc would still be in contact 24/7 with the ethanol. How does very regularly riding with ethanol gas limit problems or damage? Thanks

Somebody correct me if wrong but, alcohol is hydrophilic (absorbs water) this is the main problem as it then turns to a gel, plugging tiny passages like idle jets.

[ckahleer]

keeping ethanol gas shakin up and moving through the carburetors helps. Here in Virginia it is possible to go for a quick ride every 2 weeks. I never winterize my bikes, just keep riding them. In 11 years, I have never had the carburetors off my V65 Magna. I'm sure if I would let the bike set all winter with ethanol gas in it, I would be cleaning gunk out of the carbs every spring.

[ballbearian]

keeping ethanol gas shakin up and moving through the carburetors helps. Here in Virginia it is possible to go for a quick ride every 2 weeks. I never winterize my bikes, just keep riding them. In 11 years, I have never had the carburetors off my V65 Magna. I'm sure if I would let the bike set all winter with ethanol gas in it, I would be cleaning gunk out of the carbs every spring.

Me too. I get nervous if one sits for more than a month. The bad one is the Suzi GS750L that has a vacuum petcock and literally no room for a cut off. All the others I shut the gas and run dry in case I don't get to them.

[Maraakate]

vp gas.PNG


First, thanks for the websites! I continue to keep my eyes open for a gas station that sells no ethanol gas. I'm in a bit of desert for those gas stations apparently being in Delaware. Gotta get further out in Central PA or down in MD.

What I don't understand from your message is the lead and spark plugs. The really good fuel VP Vintage, currently ~$25/gal :o has lead. So I thought lead is good?

Lead in gas does lead to a dirtier spark plug and the lead is conductive and can bridge on the spark plugs after some time. How much is it really an issue if you stay on top of your maintenance is hard to say. But if you start fouling plugs and the only thing different is the lead content then that would be a good place to start.

[ckahleer]

I found this.
“Tetraethyl lead” was used in early model cars to help reduce engine knocking, boost octane ratings, and help with wear and tear on valve seats within the motor. Due to concerns over air pollution and health risks, this type of gas was slowly phased out starting in the late 1970’s and banned altogether in all on-road vehicles in the U.S. in 1995.

Back when cars were carbureted and had points and condensor, tune ups were required every 10,000 miles or so. Each tune up included replacing spark plugs. Todays clean burning cars and unleaded fuels make plug replacement almost unnessary. At 150,000 miles, I was going to replace spark plugs on my wifes 2012 Nisson Rogue. After pulling a couple easy front plugs, they looked so good, I put them back in.

[msanford]

keeping ethanol gas shakin up and moving through the carburetors helps. Here in Virginia it is possible to go for a quick ride every 2 weeks. I never winterize my bikes, just keep riding them. In 11 years, I have never had the carburetors off my V65 Magna. I'm sure if I would let the bike set all winter with ethanol gas in it, I would be cleaning gunk out of the carbs every spring.

So you use ethanol gas but ride every 2 weeks and no issues for 11 years, wow! I guess the shaking up has something to it or maybe just constant fresh gas has not had time to absorb water and is burned before new gas gets put in. That's great. I doubt with my mechanical skills when something goes wrong with my bike I can keep the bike on the road every 2 weeks . . . . certainly not with Delaware winters. I am not into riding when it falls probably below 45.

I will stay with Pure Gas, Leaded, 100 octane AV Gas with my only reasonable pure gas nearby being the airport. I do close my petcock and burn the gas down in the carbs even with the Pure Gas between every ride now. If this is absolutely not necessary with Pure Gas, please let me know. No reason to annoy my neighbors longer than absolutely necessary.

I saw the messages below on the reasons spark plugs and lead cause fouling, thanks. It doesn't sound like they will be a mess too quick. Call me wasteful but I could see putting new plugs in every spring as routine bike prep for the season.

Thanks again to all the messages. I am learning a lot!

[Maraakate]

I have used ethanol plenty of times in the bikes and have had it last longer than two weeks. It seems like it could go about 2-3 months before it starts really going bad. At least in all my bikes.

With that said, I stopped using ethanol when possible except filling up out of town mainly because of the gas mileage and in case I am lazy and forget to drain the carbs and the gas at the end of the season.

[ballbearian]

So you use ethanol gas but ride every 2 weeks and no issues for 11 years, wow! I guess the shaking up has something to it or maybe just constant fresh gas has not had time to absorb water and is burned before new gas gets put in. That's great. I doubt with my mechanical skills when something goes wrong with my bike I can keep the bike on the road every 2 weeks . . . . certainly not with Delaware winters. I am not into riding when it falls probably below 45.

I will stay with Pure Gas, Leaded, 100 octane AV Gas with my only reasonable pure gas nearby being the airport. I do close my petcock and burn the gas down in the carbs even with the Pure Gas between every ride now. If this is absolutely not necessary with Pure Gas, please let me know. No reason to annoy my neighbors longer than absolutely necessary.

I saw the messages below on the reasons spark plugs and lead cause fouling, thanks. It doesn't sound like they will be a mess too quick. Call me wasteful but I could see putting new plugs in every spring as routine bike prep for the season.

Thanks again to all the messages. I am learning a lot!

They put carb bowl drain screws in for grumpy neighbors.

[Maraakate]

They put carb bowl drain screws in for grumpy neighbors.

Hah, yeah. But I've been in situations one too many times where it's October or November and it's starting to get cold, but not too cold that I won't ride anymore. I park the bike and then it gets cold for a few days, then warm enough to ride again, off and on for a few weeks. Then it's just too cold where I won't do it any more and I totally forget to drain the carbs until like January or February. So, I'd rather pay that additional expense of the ethanol free fuel so I'm not totally screwed in that situation.