PLEASE DO NOT use videos for repair directions

[LongDistanceRider]

I know that if it's on the internet it must be true. Reality is very different.
I've recently watched part of a video on disassembly of a DOHC 450 engine. I couldn't watch the whole thing because I wanted to throw up. There's the right way and then there's the video way of performing diagnosis and repairs. There's a popular series of videos being viewed made by a currently popular parts supplier who has access to the FSM's and the tools to do the work correctly. Sadly they choose not to do that and provide a video in this case that is close to destroying parts while doing permanent damage.
This forum exists to give you all the information to diagnose and perform repairs that will last without ruining hard to find parts. We will walk you thru repairs using the forum, PM's, emails, text and in some cases telephone.

Thanks,
Jim

[76Twin]

Amen to that. A chisel has no business in the disassembly of an engine.

[Nick_Brox]

Exactly!

My entire career is interpreting drawings and telling people how to do a job based on years of technical experience. There is a good reason that FSMs are written the way that they are. I have seen a lot of damage done by people who refuse to follow a process because they think they know better, or it worked before without causing a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[frogman79]

As I will continue to say, take everything you see on the internet with a grain of salt. Do not take it for the man's bible truth, we all have access to said bible its called a FSM. We also have the addendum to that which are parts fiches.

I have seen a lot of damage done by people who refuse to follow a process because they think they know better, or it worked before without causing a problem.

I still tend to cringe every time I see someone tearing apart a perfectly working engine just to 'refresh" it. I guess the policy of fix it till it breaks is a thing that is accepted even though its a joke.

[ancientdad]

Exactly!

My entire career is interpreting drawings and telling people how to do a job based on years of technical experience. There is a good reason that FSMs are written the way that they are. I have seen a lot of damage done by people who refuse to follow a process because they think they know better, or it worked before without causing a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OR, they got started with the help of someone who learned on their own or from someone else who did not know the proper method, and the ignorance was passed on. I'm sure we all know who we're talking about here, and it seems to me that it all began with one person with a little knowledge, and has grown into the improper methods being passed on to those who their shop helps and advises because the methods, though not technically correct, work well enough to get by like so many backyard hack "techniques". It's the equivalent of the statement "repeat a lie often enough and it becomes truth"

[ancientdad]

To expound, for those who have not seen any of these videos utilizing such poor techniques, here are a couple of screenshots (edited to avoid maximum embarrassment, though they know who they are)

bad method2.jpg bad method1.jpg

For those who may not be familiar or do not realize the implications based on the visual, in the first picture the red arrow points to the cam chain still connected while they are forcing the cam bearing off the camshaft. The cam chain should be broken at the master link and the head removed, then the cams turned to the point where no valves are open, before proceeding with disassembly of the cylinder head.

In the second picture, they are using a brass drift and hammer to hit the upper case in an attempt to disassemble the bottom end of the engine - despite the shift shaft still being in the lower case and engaged with the shift drum, and despite the simple fact that the lower case lifts off the upper case when done correctly because all the internal components stay in the upper case (not the least of which is the crankshaft, which is bolted to the upper case with a 4 bolt cap)

[Brownrecluse]

Good to know!

[Nick_Brox]

OR, they got started with the help of someone who learned on their own or from someone else who did not know the proper method, and the ignorance was passed on. I'm sure we all know who we're talking about here, and it seems to me that it all began with one person with a little knowledge, and has grown into the improper methods being passed on to those who their shop helps and advises because the methods, though not technically correct, work well enough to get by like so many backyard hack "techniques". It's the equivalent of the statement "repeat a lie often enough and it becomes truth"

Yup,

We call that ‘Tribal Knowledge’, and you wouldn’t believe the amount of money that can be saved by making sure that it gets eliminated and a good process is put in place.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nabs]

I really liked an earlier suggestion of a thread about oft repeated but wrong advice found on the internet (perhaps anonymised to save blushes?) , assuming the experts could spare the time.

Perhaps luckily for me, no one has bothered to do any videos about the poor old CA95 so I have no choice but to read the FSM, but I can confirm that when you don't really know what you are doing it is quite possible to read the manual and still do the wrong thing! Getting to watch someone do the procedure is therefore very appealing and it would be good to learn more about which bad practices to look out for.

[ancientdad]

Though a screenshot from a recent video (same source) would not show anything visually obvious or useful, another egregious error promoted by them recently in a series of rebuild videos is the use of a drill to lap valves. The proper valve lapping procedure is done by hand, working a manual lapping tool (basically a stick with different sized suction cups at both ends) back and forth while lifting and turning periodically. Excessive force applied, like pushing on the valve while spinning it in one direction with a drill, will cause excess wear on the hardened surface of the valve face and reduce the life span of the valve significantly. After a fair amount of searching while disregarding the many backyard YT videos out there, I found an article online that explains the various methods to properly accomplish valve lapping. It may not be the most authoritative, but it does explain the correct method.

https://goodson.com/blogs/goodson-ga...ve-lapping-101

[ancientdad]

I really liked an earlier suggestion of a thread about oft repeated but wrong advice found on the internet (perhaps anonymised to save blushes?) , assuming the experts could spare the time.

Perhaps luckily for me, no one has bothered to do any videos about the poor old CA95 so I have no choice but to read the FSM, but I can confirm that when you don't really know what you are doing it is quite possible to read the manual and still do the wrong thing! Getting to watch someone do the procedure is therefore very appealing and it would be good to learn more about which bad practices to look out for.

We are slowly working on a list of poor practices that are being widely shows in videos on the internet.

[frogman79]

Lapping with a hand drill also can cause ridges/grooves on the end of the valve if you chuck it up too tightly which can/will cause damage to the valve guides when you pull them through.

[LongDistanceRider]

I really liked an earlier suggestion of a thread about oft repeated but wrong advice found on the internet (perhaps anonymised to save blushes?) , assuming the experts could spare the time.

Perhaps luckily for me, no one has bothered to do any videos about the poor old CA95 so I have no choice but to read the FSM, but I can confirm that when you don't really know what you are doing it is quite possible to read the manual and still do the wrong thing! Getting to watch someone do the procedure is therefore very appealing and it would be good to learn more about which bad practices to look out for.

When in doubt, ask. The only stupid question is the one that's never asked.
There's centuries of real life working experience available on this forum by asking questions. Even if you think it's dumb we may save you from making mistakes that are costly or fatal.

[LongDistanceRider]

I haven't lapped a valve since 1972 when I was taught how to do a 3 angle valve seat grind to set the position, margin and width of the seat to the valve.

[ancientdad]

Unfortunately, I was never taught how to do it and have never owned the proper tools for it either. I've always relied on a machine shop or simply lapped the valves myself.

[Nick_Brox]

When in doubt, ask. The only stupid question is the one that's never asked.
There's centuries of real life working experience available on this forum by asking questions. Even if you think it's dumb we may save you from making mistakes that are costly or fatal.

I cannot stress this enough! There are no stupid questions. I have been in a very dangerous industry for all of my adult life, and used to be crew on test and experimental aircraft. Now the best part of my job is coming up with ways to make people safer in the job that they do, and the customers that fly our helicopters. It’s easy to forget that what you are doing could potentially become life threatening if not done correctly. Especially when there is pressure to meet deadlines, or get something done. Don’t take shortcuts when it comes to safety, and if you don’t know, ask! If someone is unwilling to help you, I would be cautious of the work they are doing.

[1969 CL350]

I just responded to the perfect setup on a Honda 350 Facebook site...lol
9261DB37-470B-4964-82BC-BC678147CC25.jpg

[briandel]

Ouch. :)

[bilbikek411]

Ouch. :)

+1 Doing it the wrong way to begin with hurts later on.

[tbpmusic]

.........
There's centuries of real life working experience available on this forum ........

Hey, I resemble that remark !!

[ancientdad]

Hey, I resemble that remark !!

LMAO!

[12ozPBR]

I just responded to the perfect setup on a Honda 350 Facebook site...lol
9261DB37-470B-4964-82BC-BC678147CC25.jpg

Well played Sir! Definitely some idiots on many FB groups. It always amazes me some of the short answer, simple-minded, misinformation I read on there. Really makes me appreciate what we have at VHT.

[ancientdad]

While curiously watching a Harley YT video about removing the cams from a modern V-twin, I saw a really good comment that is already obvious to everyone here.

"Do what any tech does who wants to beat flat rate and GET PAID. Study everything you work on at leisure and in depth. Visit FORUMS. Youtube is inferior to the info you can get in good forums (for ANY vehicle)."

[76Twin]

Well played Sir! Definitely some idiots on many FB groups. It always amazes me some of the short answer, simple-minded, misinformation I read on there. Really makes me appreciate what we have at VHT.

LMAO I just snorted my coffee.

[film495]

I still like videos, because you can see the parts and pieces as they come apart, like a walk through before trying to do it yourself. They are like most anything that is displayed on screen these days, be skeptical. Really thought, if I can watch a video of someone doing something before I do it I will. They also sometimes are good, say if you weren't sure how something is supposed to fit or align, often times - seeing someone do it in a video shows the little wiggle or tap or angle that you need to get just right or it ain't going to fit.

It would be reasonable if this site - scrubbed videos, and listed ones that show decent methods.

For example, I randomly found this guy putting a gasket on his tank cap, and I would not have know I could pop that piece right out of the cap, and I did it and it worked, and made the whole job way easier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

Chances are you'll never steer the majority of people away from video. It is the way of the now and future.

[ancientdad]

Chances are you'll never steer the majority of people away from video. It is the way of the now and future.

I get what you mean about seeing the parts disassembled and reassembled. The point here is to not subscribe to the methods being used in many, if not most, cases.

I'm not going to spend the hours it would take to go out looking for every jackleg's videos to ascertain if they're doing it by the book or not. I'm trying to run a forum here and it takes a lot of hours of participation every day as it is. Besides, I'd be so disgusted with watching so many of them that I'd probably come close to losing my voice from yelling at my computer screen. And, it's only the way of the future for 2 reasons: people want everything freaking NOW today without having to think for themselves anymore, and because the art of learning these things on your own with a little guidance from older, more experienced mechanics is an era long passed as the last few generations felt it was beneath themselves to learn a trade instead of going to college and working a white collar job.

[film495]

I get what you mean about seeing the parts disassembled and reassembled. The point here is to not subscribe to the methods being used in many, if not most, cases.

I'm not going to spend the hours it would take to go out looking for every jackleg's videos to ascertain if they're doing it by the book or not. I'm trying to run a forum here and it takes a lot of hours of participation every day as it is. Besides, I'd be so disgusted with watching so many of them that I'd probably come close to losing my voice from yelling at my computer screen. And, it's only the way of the future for 2 reasons: people want everything freaking NOW today without having to think for themselves anymore, and because the art of learning these things on your own with a little guidance from older, more experienced mechanics is an era long passed as the last few generations felt it was beneath themselves to learn a trade instead of going to college and working a white collar job.

Didn't mean to rub you the wrong way, although - my reply was honest, I'm not unaware I was playing devil's advocate a little. The number of times the talent on this website will have to undo something someone saw in a video is mind boggling, I'll certainly give you that 100%

[ancientdad]

Didn't mean to rub you the wrong way, although - my reply was honest, I'm not unaware I was playing devil's advocate a little. The number of times the talent on this website will have to undo something someone saw in a video is mind boggling, I'll certainly give you that 100%

Wasn't rubbed the wrong way at all, just wanted to emphasize the point that the internet is a cesspool of misinformation and the glut of bike repair videos are a large part of it, including many of the well-documented and slick videos made by CMC that are so wildly popular. It would be a massive undertaking to try to vet every halfway decent bike repair video to pick and choose the ones we believe someone could subscribe to, and my life is far too busy with helping keep this project moving in a positive direction to even begin to have the time to do it, much less the desire. Bottom line is this: if someone wants to watch the many repair videos out there and employ any of the methods they tout as being great, do so at your own risk... and know that when you come back here needing help afterward and mention the method you used, where you found it and the (hopefully not) poor results you've suffered, you're likely to hear the many reasons it wasn't a good idea - again. Not speaking to anyone in particular, just answering the idea of being the gate-keeper of validation for all the videos from backyard hacks out there who want to see themselves on YT.

[film495]

my favorite CMC video, is them showing how to time a CB350 and set the points etc. when he says the point gap doesn't matter, watching the video I was sort of like, is this the first time the guy has ever done this? video not bad, interesting to see the components ... thinking the point gap doesn't matter, and leaving a video that says that up for years and years, kind of amazing. I'm no expert, but dwell time matters if you care about spark and ignition, and a running motor.

[ancientdad]

^^^Absolutely correct, but imagine the noobs out there listening to the "Honda Wizard".

[66Sprint]

my favorite CMC video, is them showing how to time a CB350 and set the points etc. when he says the point gap doesn't matter, watching the video I was sort of like, is this the first time the guy has ever done this? video not bad, interesting to see the components ... thinking the point gap doesn't matter, and leaving a video that says that up for years and years, kind of amazing. I'm no expert, but dwell time matters if you care about spark and ignition, and a running motor.

Now you know where the inspiration/necessity for some of the "66Sprint's Classroom" lectures originated........

[ancientdad]

Now you know where the inspiration/necessity for some of the "66Sprint's Classroom" lectures originated........

And the funny part about that is this: for those who don't know, Brendan of CMC was a member at HT, joined in 2011 using the name ZephyrKing, and had every opportunity to ask the collective knowledge base of a rapidly growing and popular site for vintage Hondas anything he needed to know in order to make the best and most accurate vintage Honda repair videos he possibly could. When I first saw the CMC 450 top end teardown video, I found his profile and PMed him asking why he didn't run the video and methodology he used by the Moderators at HT before posting it on the internet... and of course, he never answered me. And, now that he is no longer a sponsor of HT, you can't look at his profile either. His posts are still there, which is a surprise to me since those posts are often ads for CMC products with still-functional links to CMC and the product. A couple of geniuses right there, the corporately-run down site and the guy hawking parts making misleading and incorrect repair videos.

So there are two inspirations for VHT right there - a backyard "Honda Wizard" selling high-priced parts and misleading the noobs of the vintage Honda world with bad repair videos, and a corporate-run website that can't see itself clearly enough in the revenue-fogged mirror to figure out how to properly take care of its own community so they lock the barn door after the fact.

[mike in idaho]

I especially like those videos where the camera moves so much that you get motion sickness from trying to see what's going on.

[ancientdad]

I especially like those videos where the camera moves so much that you get motion sickness from trying to see what's going on.

Yeah, it's tough to focus on parts while battling 6 to 8 foot swells... LOL where's my Dramamine??

[ChapRick]

my favorite CMC video, is them showing how to time a CB350 and set the points etc. when he says the point gap doesn't matter, watching the video I was sort of like, is this the first time the guy has ever done this? video not bad, interesting to see the components ... thinking the point gap doesn't matter, and leaving a video that says that up for years and years, kind of amazing. I'm no expert, but dwell time matters if you care about spark and ignition, and a running motor.

I saw that video and my first thought was "Have you heard about proper dwell..." I admit to watching their videos but I am not one to take everything they say as gospel.... You do have to have some "common" sense and some experience to know when someone is blowing smoke. I agree with those who have said "Ask experienced people before diving in..."

[ancientdad]

Another log for the CMC dumpster fire. I never dreamed anyone with any real Honda shop experience would endorse this idea, but then again consider the source.

Sealant on dowel pin seals

The potential for introducing excess sealant into the wrong place doesn't get any closer to the oil passages than that.

[birdland]

And the funny part about that is this: for those who don't know, Brendan of CMC was a member at HT, joined in 2011 using the name ZephyrKing, and had every opportunity to ask the collective knowledge base of a rapidly growing and popular site for vintage Hondas anything he needed to know in order to make the best and most accurate vintage Honda repair videos he possibly could. When I first saw the CMC 450 top end teardown video, I found his profile and PMed him asking why he didn't run the video and methodology he used by the Moderators at HT before posting it on the internet... and of course, he never answered me. And, now that he is no longer a sponsor of HT, you can't look at his profile either. His posts are still there, which is a surprise to me since those posts are often ads for CMC products with still-functional links to CMC and the product. A couple of geniuses right there, the corporately-run down site and the guy hawking parts making misleading and incorrect repair videos.

So there are two inspirations for VHT right there - a backyard "Honda Wizard" selling high-priced parts and misleading the noobs of the vintage Honda world with bad repair videos, and a corporate-run website that can't see itself clearly enough in the revenue-fogged mirror to figure out how to properly take care of its own community so they lock the barn door after the fact.

This is how greed works. Commoditize information and present it for mass appeal/use. Also, it's robbing people in more than one way. It takes away the pleasure of learning the Zen of the application of mechanical concepts (a type of language and behavior that CAN be learned) and replaces that with 'quicker methods' that 'do the same thing'.

It's justified by asserting that people won't know the difference. And they won't. Until something breaks.

It's actually a deeper problem than folks wanting to make money. It's a societal thing now. You've alluded to that in your comment. But there are also lots of good people out there (kids included) who light up when presented with the opportunity to learn the right way.

Strange world. Glad I'm in it.

[ancientdad]

Another installment of this series... I just stumbled upon this video from CMC and rather than link to it because we all know that you can't "bench sync" separated carbs, here's a screenshot to show something interesting that resulted - finally. Too bad this doesn't happen more often.

[rscottp]

Thanks to Mike Nixon(someone who actually knows bikes and carbs) for his comment on above video.

[Nick_Brox]

Yes. Always, always, ALWAYS Follow the FSM. I am a Manufacturing Engineer for Sikorsky/Lockheed (previously a lead mechanic with A&P certification), and I can’t tell you how many millions of dollars I’ve seen thrown away because someone didn’t read the damn manual. I will admit that sometimes things could be written better or made more clear, but the people that wrote them know what they are talking about. The most dangerous thing in my career has always been a technician that thinks they know what they’re doing.