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Finally back to work on the 450. Cam chain timing.

duane

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2020
Total Posts
21
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Location
WASHINGTON
When I assemble the cam chain the the timing mark on the intake cam is about 1/8 inch off, while the exhaust cam is right on and the LT mark is right on. Does this seem like a problem to anyoje. Thanks in advance.
 
Moved this post to start a new repair thread in the DOHC 450 Engine section.

Duane, in cases like this pictures always help. Are you referring to the intake cam not sitting still on the mark because it's starting to open a valve? Or are you aware of that and you levered the intake cam up to the mark but after connecting the chain the mark is off? An 1/8" is a significant amount, roughly one tooth distance.
 
Thanks for the replies. The chain is the same as the original chain. When the LT and exhaust cam marks are dead on, the closest the mark gets is about 1/8 inch. The tooth gap is .308 inches. I've had it on both sides of the mark and the 1/8" is the closest.
 
Thanks for the replies. The chain is the same as the original chain. When the LT and exhaust cam marks are dead on, the closest the mark gets is about 1/8 inch. The tooth gap is .308 inches. I've had it on both sides of the mark and the 1/8" is the closest.

Are you sure you're looking at an actual timing mark? Many cams have "ghost" marks that are similar and can be deceiving
 
Thanks for the replies. The chain is the same as the original chain. When the LT and exhaust cam marks are dead on, the closest the mark gets is about 1/8 inch. The tooth gap is .308 inches. I've had it on both sides of the mark and the 1/8" is the closest.


Got a link of where you bought the chain from?
How can you tell the chain is the same as the original?
 
I rechecked for timing marks, but there is only the one mark.

IMG_20210625_090946_9.jpgIMG_20210625_090943_0.jpgIMG_20210625_090943_0.jpg

I'll check with common motors to see if they have an idea. Thanks a lot.
 
Thanks for the pictures Duane. They're pretty blurry but in one of them the mark is fairly clear, looks like some I've seen with a round dot instead of a line. Common Motor isn't going to have any better answers and since this is all we've gotten to see of your rebuild, it's difficult to be of any more help than asking questions about how you set the cam timing. A repair thread when you began the top end rebuild would have helped all of us watch your progress and offer advice and thoughts along the way, and more pictures (particularly clearer pictures) is always helpful for us.
 
Based on the evidence presented thus far and my personal experience I suspect it is an EK brand chain. 76Twin is correct, if you got your chain from CMC it is most likely NOT the original D.I.D.
Answering the question of where the chain was purchased or giving a link to it would easily solve that mystery.
Here is a good thread that discusses the problems of the EK brand chain: https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/f...9-Will-the-EK219H-cam-chain-affect-the-timing
 
Yes it was 1 tooth off. While moving the chain to check it's location I must have jumped 2 teeth instead of one. Temps have been 25-30 deg above normal so Seattle had 3 days over 100 in a row when past record is 100 day in a row. My shed has been up to 114 and just cooled off today. Plus I put off getting the shingles vaccine and have been paying for that for the last 3 weeks. Believe me get the vaccine, it can hurt pretty bad. So today I just sat down and reset the chain and the intake mark is within .020. Thanks for the help
 
The chain is an EK29H. When I got the teeth lined up right it worked just fine. It is the same as the last chain I had. (Maybe the original)
 
I had a similar experience with a CB450, and finally got it right after a bunch of trial and error. It's just super important that all the slack is in the run between the crankshaft and the intake camshaft. If you try and set it right with even a little slop in the run between the exhaust camshaft and the crankshaft as soon as you put on the tensioner everything will be wrong.
 
The chain is an EK29H. When I got the teeth lined up right it worked just fine. It is the same as the last chain I had. (Maybe the original)

The OEM chain is a DID 219T so any 219H chain is not the original. The difference between the 219T and the 219H is in the size of the link rollers, the H version rollers are slightly larger which causes the chain to ride up in the sprockets a bit higher and it can make setting cam timing a bit more challenging. Glad you got it worked out, this is one of the things many find very difficult about the DOHC 450.
 
I hope reply is the way to continue the saga. After screwing up the address sending my cam for grinding to Common Motors the post office claims to have delivered it to an address that has no place to receive mail. I tried to have USPS find out where they delivered it, but they just said it was delivered. Then the wonderful people at Common Motors found me a cam and lifters and it finally came back. Cold weather, so I waited till summer got here to install the cam. The cam went in, the chain went on and I adjusted the lifters. I used a come-along to lift the engine and lower it into the frame. That took 15 minutes, then it took a day to get it bolted in place since I had to remove a bunch of the little stuff I had mounted while waiting for the cam. (ignition switch, coil, horn) Then I put the carbs in place. I had to pick up a test light to set the points and when I got it I turned the key and none of the electrical components that worked fine last fall work now. No headlight, brake or signal lights. This will be fun?
 
Dead battery?..... Bad fuse?

Pics too blurry and distant to check your wiring connections........
 
Power goes through the ignition switch. The connections are the same as they were last fall when the lights worked. I'll need to check through the harness trying to follow what there is of a schematic.
 
Sounds like a terrible saga to go through with USPS over losing your cam, Duane. And utterly ridiculous with today’s scanners and tracking.
Glad you got it back together thus far, sure looks good all cleaned up and ready waiting for you to complete!


Tom - 1982 CM450E
 
Power goes through the ignition switch. The connections are the same as they were last fall when the lights worked. I'll need to check through the harness trying to follow what there is of a schematic.

Bad ground?......Did you paint the frame?
 
Had power but low battery voltage. Jumped lawn tractor and got lights. Thanks.
 
I was head of quality control in a couple of aircraft machine shops and have the tools to measure parts. The chains are the same.
 
They may measure the same but we've seen plenty of people have difficulties getting the timing correct using a 219H chain and it was our understanding the roller size was slightly larger on the 219H compared to the OEM 219T chain. Did you measure the individual roller diameters?
 
I'm waiting for the next week for new coils and a new battery. I have decided to rebuild my air filters. Has anyone else done this? It should be more cost effective than 150 bucks for replacement filters. Also, is there a place to find vintage bike parts or after market parts other than ebay or amazon? I'll probably start on my Honda 650 custom when I finish the 450.
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air filter.jpgair filter.jpg
 
I'm waiting for the next week for new coils and a new battery. I have decided to rebuild my air filters. Has anyone else done this? It should be more cost effective than 150 bucks for replacement filters. Also, is there a place to find vintage bike parts or after market parts other than ebay or amazon? I'll probably start on my Honda 650 custom when I finish the 450.

Moved to Duane's existing "Cam chain timing" repair thread.

Yes, others have cut off the old dirty paper and replaced it, some with automotive paper air filter sections and others have used green Unifoam glued to the factory air filter frames.
 
I can't locate a source for the green unifoam. Does anyone know where i might find it? Thanks
 
I can't locate a source for the green unifoam. Does anyone know where i might find it? Thanks

Somebody here just did this; and in the meantime maybe someone else knows, but I’ll try to find the other thread.


Tom - 1982 CM450E
 
It’s like magic. You barely have to think the thought “where can I get unifoam” and POOF! Nice work, gents.


Tom - 1982 CM450E
 
Well it’s been awhile. I assembled the engine and put it in the frame and hooked up wiring and set the ignition timing last spring and was hit with shingles. Let me tell you, you don’t want to get it. Get the vaccine. I didn’t feel like doing anything for most of the summer and the bike sat and now I can’t stand to work in the cold so I went all winter without working on the bike. This spring I started again and got air filters and pulled the carbs and decided to rebuild them and did so. Put gas in the tank with new fuel hoses and tried to start the engine. I got a couple of pops and then it sounded like the starter clutch slipped. I replaced the starter clutch springs and it seemed to work, but the engine would not fire, I rechecked the timing, checked for spark and drained the battery trying to get it to start. Thought I would try the kick starter and found out it is not connected. That is the only part of the engine I did not redo when putting the engine together this time. I don’ think I’m getting fuel, but am not sure. I tried a few shots of engine starter, but that didn’t even fire. Now it’s cooled off outside and I don’t feel a lot like going out in the cold shed to try to figure it out. I have a portable heater but I get condensation on all of my other tools when I use it. Everything wants to rust.
I’m unsure why it won’t even fire with the starter fluid. Getting a bit discouraged.
 
Thought I would try the kick starter and found out it is not connected.


Just spitballing here, but could your issues be explained by a bad clutch adjustment. You said you checked for spark, so perhaps it can't be that, but clutch-in and neutral disconnects the kick starter.
 


Just spitballing here, but could your issues be explained by a bad clutch adjustment. You said you checked for spark, so perhaps it can't be that, but clutch-in and neutral disconnects the kick starter.

Yes, the kickstarter drives through the clutch so if the clutch lever is pulled the kickstarter will not turn the engine. Also, once the battery is low due to cranking the chance of getting spark from both plugs is less, typically a low battery situation will result in only one coil firing if at all. When the advancer was removed from the camshaft during disassembly, did the breaker cam lobe that opens the points come off the advancer center shaft? If so, it can be put back on 180° out and it will not run that way, at best only pop back through the carbs if anything.
 
Thanks for the ideas. The cam on the timing advance is properly aligned. You can't set the timing if it is reversed. I checked. If I shift out of neutral the kick starter will engage the drive shaft, but it did not engage the engine in neutral. Thanks again.
 
Thanks for the ideas. The cam on the timing advance is properly aligned. You can't set the timing if it is reversed. I checked. If I shift out of neutral the kick starter will engage the drive shaft, but it did not engage the engine in neutral. Thanks again.

WRONG!....
The breaker cam CAN be installed 180 out on the advance unit, and while you can APPARENTLY set the gaps and timing, the engine won't start or run.......
Feel free to phone......
 
WRONG!....
The breaker cam CAN be installed 180 out on the advance unit, and while you can APPARENTLY set the gaps and timing, the engine won't start or run.......
Feel free to phone......

Would be easy enough to test this out too. Just swap your spark plug wires and if the bike starts then you know that's your problem.
 
Since it's pretty easy to reset the breaker cam 180 degrees, that's what I'd try.

I bought a very nicely rebuilt CB360 that wouldn't start from a guy who was completely frustrated. It was very cheap. The whole problem was that cam.
 
Would be easy enough to test this out too. Just swap your spark plug wires and if the bike starts then you know that's your problem.

NO...... When Crank turns 180 to alternate which piston gets spark, breaker cam turns only 90 and it is 180 out......
 
Setting points with advance cam 180 deg off would be awkward, but there are timing marks to get the orientation right. Photo attached, I hope.
 

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If I shift out of neutral the kick starter will engage the drive shaft, but it did not engage the engine in neutral. Thanks again.

FWIW, that is what my bike does. Clutch+N and the kick starter does not engage. Clutch+ anygear and the kick starter engages the drive shaft. You may be right that it is disconnected inside (which I have no experience with), but what you've said is consistent with a bad adjustment, which seems more likely.

As far as the bike not firing, my only thought is to recheck the point to coil connection, left point to left coil. It's the only thing that makes sense, since you had timing, spark, and fuel. Also, top off your battery before trying again. Good luck! You got this.
 
timing marks

Setting points with advance cam 180 deg off would be awkward, but there are timing marks to get the orientation right. Photo attached, I hope.
 

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I couldn't find it on the page so I sent it again. I didn't realize that there was a second page. I've been trying to find out how to add a picture to a reply, it's not real clear that you need to go to advanced something.
thanks
 
I couldn't find it on the page so I sent it again. I didn't realize that there was a second page. I've been trying to find out how to add a picture to a reply, it's not real clear that you need to go to advanced something.
thanks

You don't have to go to the advanced area to post a picture with a reply, the same toolbar is shown above the simple reply area just like when you create a new post or reply with quote as I did just now. Also, always look at the bottom right to see if there's another page. I set my posts per page number at 50 in the settings for my profile so I don't have to change pages as often.

pyN4XvN.jpg
 
It looks as his advancer is correct, the pips align.
I guess the clutch adjustment (at the side cover) may be okay??? But, if the clutch is still slipping in neutral with kickstart, the clutch is either still needing adjustment or the clutch itself is toast. It is possible the clutch cable, or lever (or both) is sticking, it could keep the clutch engaged enough to slip? (spit-balling here)
 
Can we state what the "today" problem is?

Originally it was cam timing, seems resolved.
Then, timing the spark, not running.
Next, kickstart isn't working, not running.

Is that where we are?
 
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