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Will the EK219H cam chain affect the timing?

greenjeans

Well-known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
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Location
Denton, TX
Installed an EK219H cam chain on a 72 CB450. Parts were bought (not by me) before I found this site. Anyway, I installed the chain and both timing marks on the cam were just slightly off, about 1-1.5mm each cam.

Will that make a difference when timing the motor? I set the timing with a test light first, then checked with a timing light. Left was spot on - advance as well. Right needed a little adjustment.

Is it worth worrying about? Would you advance or retard the timing to compensate?
 
Adjusting the ignition timing won't compensate for the cam to crank timing error caused by using the wrong timing chain......
I'll be happy to discuss/explain in a phone call, but it's too much for me to type......
 
I can tell you that when I had the EK219H chain on my bike I could never get the timing marks to line up and while the bike ran, ignition timing on the right cylinder was always off a bit no matter what I tried.
The proper chain to use is the DID 219T
 
Just to make sure that you're not off one tooth. Post #34 of my build thread gives you an idea of how much one tooth is at the timing marks. It's not much really and not far from 1,5mm...
I would also recommend to use the proper cam chain as suggested by 76Twin. Why making things more complicate?
 
Parts were bought before everything got to me. I got it on before finding this site. It does start, idle, and run pretty smoothly. Never had a 450 to compare it against.
66sprint - I’ll PM my phone number.
 
greenjeans said:
Parts were bought before everything got to me. I got it on before finding this site. It does start, idle, and run pretty smoothly. Never had a 450 to compare it against.
66sprint - I’ll PM my phone number.
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Or just call him at his phone number shown in his signature. If you're doing mobile and it doesn't show, go to his profile.
 
76Twin said:
I can tell you that when I had the EK219H chain on my bike I could never get the timing marks to line up and while the bike ran, ignition timing on the right cylinder was always off a bit no matter what I tried.
The proper chain to use is the DID 219T
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I have in the past been one of the doubters on the “EK chain won’t work on a DOHC 450” bandwagon because I have successfully used one on a previous rebuild. However with very recent first hand experience I am revising my opinion of the EK cam chain. Just in the past week I struggled for more than an hour trying to fit an EK 29H (219H) cam chain on my current 450 rebuild. No matter what I did it simply did not fit correctly. I could get LT on the rotor and the the exhaust cam marks to line up but could never get the intake mark lined up correctly, not to mention the chain seemed way too tight, to the point of having to force it all together. Nothing about the experience seemed right.
Fortunately because I keep extra parts on hand I had a new DID 219T already in hand so I chose to stop, thread it through, and see if there were any similar issues. All I can say is the proof is in the result. The DID fit PERFECTLY. I had no issue whatsoever getting all 3 marks lined up on the first attempt and when I laid the ends of the chain in the intake cam the teeth meshed easily, making joining the 2 ends of the chain a simple task.
I could make a separate thread detailing some other observations I made during this process but suffice to say anyone in the future doing a DOHC 450 rebuild should spare yourself the grief and just use the DID cam chain. I am done wasting my time and money fooling with the suspect and unreliable EK chain.
 
Just got off the phone with 66Sprint. I've ordered a new, correct D.I.D. chain. I'll be very familiar with this motor by the time I'm done.
 
greenjeans said:
Just got off the phone with 66Sprint. I've ordered a new, correct D.I.D. chain. I'll be very familiar with this motor by the time I'm done.
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That is a very wise decision. Please post back here with your results as I am curious if your experience will be the same as mine. BTW, did you get a DID chain that comes with the master link? Some do, others do not I believe.
 
Comes with a master link. Not sure what kind. Looks like a std press on. I have a good little chain tool that works great for those. I need to talk myself into taking the motor back out instead of trying to get the chain in there while it’s in the frame
 
It CAN be done but it's a bit of a PITA. I've done it twice on my red 450 but for other reasons having nothing to do with the choice of cam chain, and I went through the PITA to avoid pulling the engine out of a freshly powdercoated frame.
 
This discussion has me thinking that with the 350's they should be using the 219T chain and I think most of the chains being sold are the 219H. Almost every 350 has the cam timing off just a little bit when assembled, slightly advance @2-3 degrees.
 
That's a good point Jim, since Steve alluded to the larger link roller size causing a different fit in the sprockets. Probably the cause all along
 
KnuckleBustingTwin said:
Oh ****! ... I just had the EK219H installed on my 500T ... am I screwed?
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Perhaps not if the marks lined up correctly and you didn’t have to struggle to fit the ends together. As I mentioned previously, I have been able to use the EK chain before. I am beginning to wonder if the ability to fit may have something to do with how much wear the cam chain sprocket teeth have on the particular motor being worked on?
 
12ozPBR said:
Perhaps not if the marks lined up correctly and you didn’t have to struggle to fit the ends together. As I mentioned previously, I have been able to use the EK chain before. I am beginning to wonder if the ability to fit may have something to do with how much wear the cam chain sprocket teeth have on the particular motor being worked on?
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AND the presence of the rubber/plastic damper rings in the cams on either side of the sprockets, as I believe the wider side plates on the EK chain contact them
 
ancientdad said:
That's a good point Jim, since Steve alluded to the larger link roller size causing a different fit in the sprockets. Probably the cause all along
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In my recent experience I found no appreciable difference in the roller diameter of the EK chain vs. the DID. If I remember correctly they were within .0001”. Even with that small difference there would still be a cumulative effect, but I will leave that to the mathematicians. There was a noticeable difference in the overall length (3mm) of the 2 chains however.
 
ancientdad said:
AND the presence of the rubber/plastic damper rings in the cams on either side of the sprockets, as I believe the wider side plates on the EK chain contact them
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Excellent point Tom. In both of my cases I installed the cam chain on cam sprockets MINUS the rubber dampeners.
 
12ozPBR said:
In my recent experience I found no appreciable difference in the roller diameter of the EK chain vs. the DID. If I remember correctly they were within .0001”. Even with that small difference there would still be a cumulative effect, but I will leave that to the mathematicians. There was a noticeable difference in the overall length (3mm) of the 2 chains however.
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I suspected any difference in roller diameter might be larger than that, but the overall length difference is surprising in itself - EK shorter by that amount?
 
Yes the EK chain was shorter
09D8F3D3-7014-4CD6-81E3-E3DD2F7D3201.jpg
Both of the chains were brand new out of the original labeled boxes. Chains were hung vertically from a common point to make the photo.

I think I am correct on the .0001 roller difference measurement. I made some some notes at the time but won’t have access to them to verify for another couple of weeks at this point.
 
Well, there's the answer we've long wondered about, clearly the reason those who buy EK chains have the issues they do with them. Once again, it proves that in the most critical and important areas, OEM is still the best.
 
That would be a slightly different PITCH dimension, from one roller centerline to the next. In the spec sheets both chains are listed as having the same pitch, sounds like someone's manufacturing process is a bit off. Would I be correct in assuming EK chain is manufactured in a certain very large asian country?
 
46317ED3-F448-4C08-99B8-EE6441257FAB.jpg
Both are made in Japan, but it does seem there could be some sloppiness in manufacturing standards. It would be interesting if anyone else had both chains and could make similar comparisons. What is strange to me is the fact that the EK chain is offered by so many vendors as the one to use. With the problems we are acknowledging how are so many others seemingly using them without issue?
 
12ozPBR said:
With the problems we are acknowledging how are so many others seemingly using them without issue?
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I'm sure there are many problems that never get mentioned in a public forum because some may feel they'll face criticism (gee, what a surprise on most forums), but it's a good point you make.
 
12ozPBR said:
What is strange to me is the fact that the EK chain is offered by so many vendors as the one to use.
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This probably has to do with the pricing breaks offered by EK. In the parts business there are multiple price levels depending on all sorts of criteria like quantity, frequency of orders, gross business volume, etc. Most business decision's are based on profit margin rather than quality.
I used to buy NGK plugs for $.59 when retail was $.99 in quantities of 500/month, at 1000/mo the price dropped to $.55.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
This probably has to do with the pricing breaks offered. Most business decision's are based on profit margin rather than quality.
I used to buy NGK plugs for $.59 when retail was $.99 in quantities of 500/month, at 1000/mo the price dropped to $.55.
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I would hope those NGK plugs were the real thing and actually worked as expected though :rolleyes:
 
LongDistanceRider said:
This was in the 80's and directly from the NGK importer in L.A. I did a couple of 10,000 orders for wholesaling and the price dropped to $.19 each, sold them at $.50 and made a good profit.
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Wow! The good old days. Now it is quickly being that we are lucky to find those plugs at all. Is that where things are headed for the DID 219T cam chain? Not trying to start a run on those by any means... no reason to horde.
 
^^^Good job. It's a shame Frank stopped shipping to the US, his was the best price. I wonder why that happened...
 
I’ve fitted both chains. The pins on the EK are larger diameter. An EK chain link will not fit into a D.I.D. 219T chain - larger diameter pins. Both bikes ran with either chain, but the marks on the cams will not line up with an EK chain.
 
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Having never bought or tried an EK chain, hearing these things make me glad I always stuck with OEM
 
Would anyone like to hear the explanation as to why the EK chain doesn't allow all three simultaneous index alignments?
 
OK then....Let's start with the known fact that the EK chains rollers are very slightly larger in diameter than the DID chain's.....
Since the roller diameter increase actually decreases the inner distance between any two rollers, the teeth of the sprockets can't fit (insert) as deeply into those gaps between the rollers, meaning that the chain rides ever so slightly higher on the sprockets.....When an idler/guide sprocket is positioned between the two cam sprockets, the chain now is forced into a deeper "V" shape (Original path shown as green "V" , deeper V in red).....Since the pitch length (pin to pin) is the same, this has the effect of rotating BOTH the cams slightly towards the idler sprocket....
The exhaust cam however is also rotated in the opposite direction by similar effect of the several idler/guide wheels/sprocket connecting it to the crank....which rotates the intake cam even further CCW...
Assuming you've assembled and run the chain in the normal exhaust cam to crank (front run tight first) sequence and managed to get those two index marks properly aligned, you will find that the toothing of the intake cam now prevents correct alignment as well....It will either show as slightly past the index (which would be due to the "further " rotation explained above, or it will be late (if you skip a link), OR, set to the index, there will be slack in the top run, automatically making the cams out of sync with each other......

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Clear as mud? Or did my assessment of what is occurring make sense to you guys?........
 
Yes, but the exhaust cam to crank has already been similarly slightly advanced by the cam to crank run and its idlers, and although it can end up appearing nearly exact, the top run of chain will then further advance the intake cam....In reality, with the EK H chain, only one of the index marks can be at "perfect" alignment at a time....They are ALL slightly "out of sync" rotationally.......Close enough so it will/can run but not anywhere near to its potential.....
 
ancientdad said:
^^^Good job. It's a shame Frank stopped shipping to the US, his was the best price. I wonder why that happened...
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I wrote to Frank to check on this and he said that he didn't quit shipping to the US, but was told to stop due to to extreme back ups caused by Covid-19. I can vouch for the backup as I have been waiting for two lousy washers coming from Germany for 3 months now. I would avoid buying anything from overseas right now unless you can wait indefinitely (at least don't try to ship via USPS).
 
KnuckleBustingTwin said:
I wrote to Frank to check on this and he said that he didn't quit shipping to the US, but was told to stop due to to extreme back ups caused by Covid-19. I can vouch for the backup as I have been waiting for two lousy washers coming from Germany for 3 months now. I would avoid buying anything from overseas right now unless you can wait indefinitely (at least don't try to ship via USPS).
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Good to know, Frank has the best price. I've bought probably 3 from him and I'm going to need another one
 
So with my newly rebuilt engine I beleive I added a EK chain from 4into1. Should I swap out to a DID chain or run what I have? I still have carb issues and it back fires through them.
 
Based on the fact that we know it does alter the cam timing a little bit, it could be what is contributing to your situation. Are you running stock air filters or pods? Ignition timing or a lean condition can also cause backfires through the carbs
 
The bike has pods on it. The timing seems to be stable. The after the first few fire ups it needed to be adjusted like the chain was stretching a bit.

It does hang at higher RPM when I start. It's about time to get it some professional help.

The timing marks did appear to be on. I tried rotating the engine back and forth and they lined back up. I did replace the cam cushions when I rebuilt it.
 
If the timing marks all lined up then you should be fine with the EK chain. I never could get that chain to work on mine.

Have you tried running the carbs without the pods at all and see how it does?
 
76Twin said:
If the timing marks all lined up then you should be fine with the EK chain. I never could get that chain to work on mine.

Have you tried running the carbs without the pods at all and see how it does?
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It doesn't really run with the pods on. Only off. I have something going on there. I have never had this trouble with the CB360 but it's a different set up.
 
Matt S said:
It doesn't really run with the pods on. Only off. I have something going on there. I have never had this trouble with the CB360 but it's a different set up.
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Are you running with the OEM points ignition or electronic? IF EI then what brand?
Did you swap out any jets or needles from the carbs using aftermarket kits?
In fact you should tell us exactly what has been done on the bike since you got it.
 
I'm running a Charlie's ignition.

I used the parts in the carbs that were on the bike when it siezed.

I've got the bike not running and had to rebuild the engine with new pistons and boring the cylinders.
 
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