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CB175 Moss Grower

cleaned up both sets of casing bolts in the parts washer
PXL_20230121_190107775.jpg

Interesting that the bolt heads were different on the two motors. The one from the left is the Orig (1970)

bolt heads.png

I decided to use as many of the original parts as possible, but I did swap out a few. I got the rust and dust off, but did not take to bare metal because I think these bolts earned that patina over the last 50 years. The Moss Grower is never going to be on the showroom floor lol.

PXL_20230124_044344905.jpg

Next time I do this Ill clean all the bits first. Cleaning in stages is a momentum killer. (and I didn't want to clean two engines)
 
Boy, can I ever relate to this. Double duty on everything is a buzz-kill but it's nice to have choices. At least all yours are hex heads, mine are flared out cross heads that have to be peened flat then the cross reformed with a hammer to a JIS driver bit, then a buff with the wire drill wheel. Probably about a 95% survival rate and I find out if the wrong screw in the wrong hole was done by the previous whoever (aluminum threads in the cases need all the help they can get). Sometimes the spray carb cleaner and compressed air don't get it and I have to run a tap first.

I guess we could blow our time and money ordering replacements but this is a more archeological approach.
 
Thanks ballbearian I appreciate your story about the cross heads, makes me feel lucky having proper bolts! Good luck with those!

Like ancientdad, your comment about the archeological approach resonated with me. I sometime think about the last person that touched some of these components. I envision a tech in a Japanese factory over 53 years ago working on it. I can spend a long time looking at old diagrams like these that I assume were hand drawn since CAD wasn't a thing yet I don't believe.

engine.JPG

engine2.JPG
 
I can spend a long time looking at old diagrams like these that I assume were hand drawn since CAD wasn't a thing yet I don't believe.

I have to assume the diagrams and exploded views back then were done on a draftsman's table, as you said it's very likely there was no CAD or similar program available. Computers were rare in businesses then, though Honda would have had the money to afford them if they were involved.
 
Thanks Steve. Your project most closely resembles my own efforts. So much has changed since my first bike in 1970. When I entered highschool the pre-engineering students wore hog leg holsters for their slide rules but by my 1975 graduation they had traded them for the new Texas Instruments calculators. Then again we had a 22 caliber rifle range for the ROTC kids in the school basement. Sorry to digress.

I'm really enjoying your build and process. Keep up the great work.
 
Cases are assembled! (a major milestone for me)

Brushed on a thin layer of high temp Honda Bond
PXL_20230127_042121720.jpg

PXL_20230127_043457819.jpg

Typo in the parts site I was looking at showed the shorter of two bolts going into the front, but looked to me like the longer one goes there:
part typo 1.png

part typo 2.png

Torqued to spec. I could not find any torque values in the K4 manual and the K5 manual has a typo! The bolts marked as 8mm are 6mm and vice versa!
typo manual.png

PXL_20230127_051439387.jpg

So hopefully it's all correct. The kickstarter engages and disengages easily. I have not tried the shifting yet lol

PXL_20230127_052039175.jpg

I know the side gasket surfaces look terrible, but they are smooth....
 
I envision a tech in a Japanese factory over 53 years ago working on it.

I watched an interesting Youtube video yesterday, Allen Millyard rebuilding the engine in his Pan European, because he was concerned about a slight knocking noise from the V4 1100cc. Engine had not been apart before, and showed some assembly errors. Rubber seal on sump oil pickup pipe not fitted correctly, possibly causing lack of oil pressure, also ( hope I heard this correctly ) wrong bearing shells fitted to the con rod that was causing the knocking sound.

So even Honda techs are not infallible ...
 
Steve, those gasket surfaces may feel smooth, but the dark spots are old gasket remnants that really need to be cleaned off if you don't want leaks.

I have never worked on a 175, but don't you need to install the cam chain around the crankshaft sprocket before you marry up the crankcase halves? I'd be happy to be corrected about this.

Ray
 
. . . I have never worked on a 175, but don't you need to install the cam chain around the crankshaft sprocket before you marry up the crankcase halves? I'd be happy to be corrected about this.

Having rebuilt my own CB175, I am happy to advise that these use a 'joining link' chain so it can be (with patience) manoeuvred with wire through the crankcases and onto the crankshaft sprocket.

I think most of us would install first and secure the ends with wire, but I am confident that Steve will successfully install, BEFORE placing barrels onto crankcase.(y)
220625 2.jpg
 
This is about as far as you can go while it is still easy to get the cam chain over the crank sprocket and threaded through the tensioner assembly.

duLnyEi.jpg
 
Steve, those gasket surfaces may feel smooth, but the dark spots are old gasket remnants that really need to be cleaned off if you don't want leaks.

Completely agree Ray, and I was going to mention it myself. Clean and shiny, so as Jim says "your mother could eat off it"
 
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the feedback. This forum is fantastic. Looks like I have some more gasket surfaces to clean!

For the cam chain, Ive been hesitant to commit to the one I bought because I need to break it, remove some links, and more importantly, because Ill need to use a rivet style master link (as discussed in this thread).

Forgot to mention in my previous update that I replaced all the seals, and when I initially reinstalled the Oil Separator plates in the bottom case the separator bars slid out easily, so I ended up bending the plates a bit so they exerted 'upward' force against the bars.

oil seperator.JPG
 
Yes I did! I paid special attention to that per your earlier comment.

I'm just always concerned when a picture of an assembled bottom end isn't large enough for me to see if the upper crankcase shows the pin popped through... glad you were diligent. (y)
 
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the feedback. This forum is fantastic. Looks like I have some more gasket surfaces to clean!

For the cam chain, Ive been hesitant to commit to the one I bought because I need to break it, remove some links, and more importantly, because Ill need to use a rivet style master link (as discussed in this thread).

Forgot to mention in my previous update that I replaced all the seals, and when I initially reinstalled the Oil Separator plates in the bottom case the separator bars slid out easily, so I ended up bending the plates a bit so they exerted 'upward' force against the bars.

If you have a endless loop RK brand cam chain then this Honda part is a split cam chain link and fits the RK 219 chain perfectly. I sourced these from EBay when I was doing my CL77 which uses the same chain, as does the CB350F. Likely different lengths than yours, yet the link is correct and fits the RK chain.

Honda part # 14411-235-003 Split link for 219 RK chain. EBay listing presently https://www.ebay.com/itm/175415394919
 
Thanks for the link Flyin900. Unfortunately that appears to be a "flat sided" version and my new chain (and the original chain) have hour glass shaped links (EK?). The PO of the spare motor used a flat sided cam chain and early on sprint66 warned me against using one like that on the 175.

Also, AncientDad, I uploaded a bigger pic of the bottom case here: https://i.imgur.com/o1NmPEj.jpg in case you want to check for damage! (let me know if you need a different angle)

Cheers,
Steve
 
Also, AncientDad, I uploaded a bigger pic of the bottom case here: https://i.imgur.com/o1NmPEj.jpg in case you want to check for damage! (let me know if you need a different angle)

Steve, it's the inside of the upper case on the clutch side and the outside of the upper case on the sprocket side where the damage would occur if the locating pins aren't in the bearings. Can't see it from the bottom.

Like this

PyG04Zs.jpg


If you know you aligned them and the bearing caps dropped over the pins, you should be golden.
 
Steve, it's the inside of the upper case on the clutch side and the outside of the upper case on the sprocket side where the damage would occur if the locating pins aren't in the bearings. Can't see it from the bottom.

Like this


If you know you aligned them and the bearing caps dropped over the pins, you should be golden.




Isn't that what Duct Tape is for??? Add a little silicone over the tape to keep the oil in there! ;)
 
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Thanks for the link Flyin900. Unfortunately that appears to be a "flat sided" version and my new chain (and the original chain) have hour glass shaped links (EK?). The PO of the spare motor used a flat sided cam chain and early on sprint66 warned me against using one like that on the 175.

Also, AncientDad, I uploaded a bigger pic of the bottom case here: https://i.imgur.com/o1NmPEj.jpg in case you want to check for damage! (let me know if you need a different angle)

Cheers,
Steve


I'm confused, Did you get the rivet style link that Dime city showed at the bottom of the page you linked to? I would have. Shortening that chain is pretty easy. And for the record, I'm pretty sure the split type links are all like the one Flying 900 linked to (looks flat sided) and is the correct one for the non flat sided chains.

The 305's use the same, here is a pic of the split master on 219H.

b9v02jS.jpg


I'm not much impressed with DID (especially for more $) but did put a cut down one on my CB160. That EK looks just fine and if you want the rivet type master, go for it.
 
Thanks ballbearian, I think Im the confused one lol.

I just checked and my orig cam chain (that I had to break to remove) indeed has a flat sided master link.

orig master link.png

I was thinking the replacement should be hour glass shaped like the rest per the CMNSL pic..but I was not looking at both sides apparently:
master link.png

Anyhow, I did order this rivet link from dime city when I got the chain, and since I have it I might as well try it.

master link new.png

But good to know I have options. Thanks Flyin900 for posting the source for the ebay link - I just confirmed it is the same honda part number as listed on CMNSL for my bike. Much appreciated.
 
Thanks ballbearian, I think Im the confused one lol.

I just checked and my orig cam chain (that I had to break to remove) indeed has a flat sided master link.

View attachment 20038

I was thinking the replacement should be hour glass shaped like the rest per the CMNSL pic..but I was not looking at both sides apparently:
View attachment 20039

Anyhow, I did order this rivet link from dime city when I got the chain, and since I have it I might as well try it.

View attachment 20040

But good to know I have options. Thanks Flyin900 for posting the source for the ebay link - I just confirmed it is the same honda part number as listed on CMNSL for my bike. Much appreciated.

As a suggestion you may wish to invest in the split link too as a backup. Personally I have never done a peened cam chain link, yet my machine shop guy has done lots on his Yamaha bikes. He indicated that he always buys extra of the peened links, as it is a bit of an art to getting them right. Over peening and the link is too tight and under peening risks it coming apart at the wrong time.

Others who have done peened cam chain links may have some suggestions on getting that sweet spot correct. ;)
 
I've used this type of rivet link. It has shoulders on the pins, so it is impossible to make the link too tight by peening it too much. Hopefully these pics will explain.

8GF3ZOR.jpg


fMdUVF0.jpg


sMUK3zp.jpg


JWG18vp.jpg
 
Apologies for banging on, but there is another type of link where the side plate is an interference press fit, not peened over. I personally found fitting this type impossible to do, although of course it must be possible.

Its the middle part in this photo, link with shouldered pins at the top.

c9Wot34.jpg
 
Yes, excellent close-ups and I agree with Richard. Though I've never tried to use one, I just don't feel comfortable with the idea of a pressed-on side plate with nothing keeping it from potentially working loose and seemingly no shoulder to limit the distance the side plate is pressed onto the link pins. I prefer the stake/peen style links, I've been using them since the first DOHC 450 I rebuilt and have never had one fail.
 
Thanks Richard Pitman for the detail! I just confirmed my new one is a press-fit type - bummer. Next time im in the shed/shop Ill remove my orig cam chain link and confirm it fits my new chain..and if it does, probably order the one Flyin900 suggested. (The peen style seem hard to come by for the 219H)

Cheers
 
Thanks Richard Pitman for the detail! I just confirmed my new one is a press-fit type - bummer. Next time im in the shed/shop Ill remove my orig cam chain link and confirm it fits my new chain..and if it does, probably order the one Flyin900 suggested. (The peen style seem hard to come by for the 219H)

Cheers

I have a dimpled peen style link for a DID 219 chain and it doesn't fit the RK 219 chain properly, so even if you found one you may find it doesn't fit the EK brand of chain. Hopefully the one I listed will fit your EK chain properly. It won't cost you a lot to order it and find out.
 
Good idea Flyin900, I think Ill do that.

BTW, because I saw more options available for the 219T, and never knew the difference between the T and H varieties, I just asked that fancy new chatbot (ChatGPT) what the difference was between a 219T and a 219H chain and it replied:

"The 219T and 219H cam chains refer to the pitch (distance between chain rollers) and width of the chain. The difference between 219T and 219H is the height of the chain's rollers. A 219T chain has taller rollers and a 219H chain has shorter rollers. These chains are commonly used in motorcycle engines, and the specific chain needed depends on the engine design and the manufacturer's specifications. It's important to use the correct chain for your motorcycle to ensure proper fit and performance."
 
Good idea Flyin900, I think Ill do that.

BTW, because I saw more options available for the 219T, and never knew the difference between the T and H varieties, I just asked that fancy new chatbot (ChatGPT) what the difference was between a 219T and a 219H chain and it replied:

"The 219T and 219H cam chains refer to the pitch (distance between chain rollers) and width of the chain. The difference between 219T and 219H is the height of the chain's rollers. A 219T chain has taller rollers and a 219H chain has shorter rollers. These chains are commonly used in motorcycle engines, and the specific chain needed depends on the engine design and the manufacturer's specifications. It's important to use the correct chain for your motorcycle to ensure proper fit and performance."

I find that info about the differences to be clear as mud. Pitch is always defined as the distance from center to center of the pins, "distance between chain rollers" is vague as larger diameter rollers will of course be closer. And what is a "taller" roller? I'm guessing that the diameter is larger on one type and the pitch remains the same, after all they are both designated 219. It is possible that there are differences in the diameter of the pins that would not make the master links interchangeable. Also if the width of the rollers (and thus the distance between inner side plates) was different, then the masters would not swap.
I wish I had both in front of me.
 
It is possible that there are differences in the diameter of the pins that would not make the master links interchangeable.

That is certainly true. Apologies for my vagueness, just can't remember the actual chain numbers, but I do know that one cam chain that I purchased was not compatible with the split link from the existing cam chain, pins on the split link too 'fat' to fit the links on the other chain.
 
That is certainly true. Apologies for my vagueness, just can't remember the actual chain numbers, but I do know that one cam chain that I purchased was not compatible with the split link from the existing cam chain, pins on the split link too 'fat' to fit the links on the other chain.

No, no apologies needed. I was just going off on the chatbot info being somewhat imprecise in terms used. Thanks for the pin difference info. None of my bikes (that I know of) use the type T chain so it's academic for me, until it isn't. ;)

I know, for sure, I don't know enough.
 
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