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A 1975 CB400F high mileage complete engine rebuild

Interesting. I couldn't find a picture of the internals of that caliper, but it looks like a single piston caliper. Does that mean you plan to mount two? Will the disc itself require any machining (is it thin enough)?

Edit: I think I finally found a picture of that caliper that answers my question. It looks like it has opposing pistons rather than side by side pistons as in some other calipers. Is that correct?
 
Indeed, two opposing pistons, diameter 38 mm each, the original piston is 42 mm. Below a calculation of the impact:

caliper size.jpg
Since the piston of the brake reservoir stays the same, the travel will be smaller, but the applied force larger. At the moment I have Ferodo brake pads in the original set-up, but still I like to have more brake power. Also thinking of changing the disc itself, but that's another path I like to avoid.

The article number of the caliper is: p2f08/3 raid w 07bb1410
 
Hello,

disc brakes are calculated/selected usually by braking force/torque and disc heat capacity/dissipation. I'm curious about Your considerations on this second matter.
 
Hello,

disc brakes are calculated/selected usually by braking force/torque and disc heat capacity/dissipation. I'm curious about Your considerations on this second matter.

Good question. I'll be curious to hear what Jensen has in mind as well. I suppose it may be a good thing that the original rotor/disc was not drilled, because that leaves a fairly easy upgrade that could help with heat dissipation.
 
The main reason for the low break force lays in the difference between the two pistons (lever versus caliper). Honda was experimenting in that era, this was one of the first disc brake setup, and is actually the same as on all 450's from 1970 and up. The disc itself is very thick and heavy, the mass alone will make it difficult to heat it up quickly. Eventually, it will heat up, but that takes a serious amount of breaking, way more then everyday usage (at least that is my experience wit this bike). The disk itself has a smaller diameter then modern set-ups, resulting in a lower torque-arm with respect to the centre.

Perforated disks don't brake better, probably worse, because there is less surface to be used. For breaking in a wet environment the perforation will help to get rid of water and dirt. Most brakes from cars are fat disks, not perforated and enclosed by the mudguard and wheel, more or less the same as the Honda CB400f. Most cars have multi piston calipers, which making the friction surface larger, resulting in more stopping power.

btw, I made some pictures of the wires from the generator after cleaning:

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Overview of the generator wires after cleaning and repair

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Close-up of the generator wires. Not happy jet, can be cleaner. Now soaking in silicon fluid, tomorrow they will be cleaner.

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One out of 4 boxes of Honda wires, taken from harnesses like explained earlier. Also a few modern wires in the Honda colours, mainly High temp wiring for generator repairs.

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Orange winker wires with bullet contacts (male and female)

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Light blue winker wires, also with a choice of connectors

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Complete sets for certain older Honda's

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CB450 K1-K7 wire harness parts

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Very rare woven umbilical for the plus wire for older Honda's (CB450 K0, CB72 etc..)
 
I was under the impression that the woven stuff is fibreglass? Matt at VC sells it: http://vintageconnections.com/Products/Detail/169 , but with you being in NL doesn't make sense to source it from him. Also, the colour is incorrect for your bikes which matters for your restoration.

With that said, I don't see a reason why you couldn't source the same stuff Matt has and then dye it. But, that may not count for your idea of a true restoration and I understand if you must have the true original pieces as much as possible.
 
This is splitting hairs, but I am curious how do you handle a situation like this:

You want to put new bullet or terminal connectors (depending on the year) at the end of the generator harness because the old ones could use replacement. You cut the old one off, strip it back say 0.25" and there's some corrosion. So you trim it back more and more and now you've taken about 2" off in order to get good, clean, copper wire. At this point do you take a wire of the same colour and gauge then solder the two together and use heat shrink tubing and cover it all up from the PVC or fibreglass tubing or would you send the entire unit out to be rewound?

Me personally, I would trim back to good wire then heat shrink and call it a day. But you may be more fussy on this, and I'm curious what you would do. If it's going to be covered like that and nobody will see it and is soldered properly and heat shrinked properly I'm OK with it. Some wires on the generator you can resolder from the coil out to the harness, but some are covered by the compound and it's just out right too dangerous (in my opinion) to change that in order to be more correct. It also becomes kind of pricey at that stage. Over here in the US you could easily spend $200-$300 (maybe more) to get it rewound just because of this.

Either way, I applaud your efforts. There's a point for me where enough is enough and if nobody is going to see it and it works the same or better then I can live with this. But, for others, this is unacceptable and I salute you if you want to go that far.
 
Jensen, I sent you a PM a few days ago.

Off topic here yet I was wondering if in all those bits and bobs you have so carefully stored and documented, if you have a single carb OEM slide needle for the CL77 carbs for my stock set up. I have secured one OEM single needle unit only at this time.
If you can help out I would appreciate it and I do have a number of CL77 carb parts, bodies etc from the set I secured, that I would be willing to offer to trade and ship to you at my expense.

Cheers
 
I was under the impression that the woven stuff is fibreglass? Matt at VC sells it: http://vintageconnections.com/Products/Detail/169 , but with you being in NL doesn't make sense to source it from him. Also, the colour is incorrect for your bikes which matters for your restoration.

The bomber has a red umbilical for the positive voltage wire, the pictured box is for all kind of Honda twins. I have white woven also, for the ignition wires (bomber and CB400f).

battery area overview.jpg

This is splitting hairs, but I am curious how do you handle a situation like this:

You want to put new bullet or terminal connectors (depending on the year) at the end of the generator harness because the old ones could use replacement. You cut the old one off, strip it back say 0.25" and there's some corrosion. So you trim it back more and more and now you've taken about 2" off in order to get good, clean, copper wire. At this point do you take a wire of the same colour and gauge then solder the two together and use heat shrink tubing and cover it all up from the PVC or fibreglass tubing or would you send the entire unit out to be rewound?

Me personally, I would trim back to good wire then heat shrink and call it a day. But you may be more fussy on this, and I'm curious what you would do. If it's going to be covered like that and nobody will see it and is soldered properly and heat shrinked properly I'm OK with it. Some wires on the generator you can resolder from the coil out to the harness, but some are covered by the compound and it's just out right too dangerous (in my opinion) to change that in order to be more correct. It also becomes kind of pricey at that stage. Over here in the US you could easily spend $200-$300 (maybe more) to get it rewound just because of this.

I replace the whole wire, but I won't solder it, I never do. Crimping is much better with the right crimping tools.

11645.jpg

The generator wires are crimped directly to the generator copper winding end, just peel off the coating and go from there. The wires of the early CB72's and CB77's are much more vulnerable, so I have a lot of experience doing so. Repairs on the harness are done in the same way, but always crimping and using shrink tube (the adhesive type). I always place the cut within the harness, never visible. I build up a complete harnesses from scratch, mainly for CB72's / CB77's and dreams, but also for the 450's. At the moment I'm in the process building a harness for a CB450 K1, chancing it from a US harness to an European harness, adding the wires to the harness. I also include the wires for the front fork cable brake switch, it's safer, but never sold in the Netherlands. I also alter the lengths sometimes, and add extra ground wires.

Jensen, I sent you a PM a few days ago.

Off topic here yet I was wondering if in all those bits and bobs you have so carefully stored and documented, if you have a single carb OEM slide needle for the CL77 carbs for my stock set up. I have secured one OEM single needle unit only at this time.
If you can help out I would appreciate it and I do have a number of CL77 carb parts, bodies etc from the set I secured, that I would be willing to offer to trade and ship to you at my expense.

Cheers

Yes, I saw it, and didn't know how to answer, I don't know if the CL parts are the same as CB72 or CB77. In the Netherlands are no CL's, never sold here, so no parts available. Have to look into the part numbers too. Could you send me the part number you have, so I can compare ?
 
Yes, I saw it, and didn't know how to answer, I don't know if the CL parts are the same as CB72 or CB77. In the Netherlands are no CL's, never sold here, so no parts available. Have to look into the part numbers too. Could you send me the part number you have, so I can compare ?

Jensen,

So there are two different slide needles used on the CB77 and the CL77, yet I am sure they are closer than the Keyster kits I just purchased. In the Keyster kits the slid needles are off spec both visually and with a micrometer measurement on the slide needle bodies. They are much thinner with the taper from the top all the way down to the tip.

The part number for the CL77 needle is Honda 16151-278-004 with K24304 marked on the top of the needle round body. I have one OEM needle, yet the numbers are worn down so I cannot read them completely 100%.
The CB77 part number is 16151-275-004 with K24231 marked on the top area too. There are differences in the jetting too, so the CB77 while likely a better choice than Keyster is going to have some differences too.

The CB72 will not likely work as they were 250cc's, so probably quite a different set up on all internal parts.

See what you have in you stock and we can go from there. Thanks for the follow up.
 
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Yes, crimping can be a solid repair when done properly with the right tools.

For what it's worth, Honda's official repair is a special solder "splice". I was unaware of this until I saw it over at Mike Nixon's site, the PDF is here: https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/terminals_Honda_bulletin.pdf and the article is here https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/electrical_terminals.html.

I never peeled back the compound on the stators to see how the wires lead to the coils. I always figured it was soldered directly on one end of the coil. Maybe it is for some of them, and not for other bikes? Or maybe I'm totally wrong and the crimps are used because of the heat in there may actually melt the solder or weaken it enough to become a problem :)
 
Or maybe I'm totally wrong and the crimps are used because of the heat in there may actually melt the solder or weaken it enough to become a problem :)

No, not wrong, the solder doesn't melt at the temperatures applied to the generator. Crimping is a very secure way of connecting. Since these wires are in a environment with a lot of vibrations, fatigue is the enemy of soldered contacts. So, in a case of the generator stator wiring, I crimp. I could combine it with soldering, but I don't see the point.

Most wire harnesses I use for parts are for free, or gotten very, very cheap. This is mainly the reason why I choose for that option. It only takes time, and, on top of that, I can alter wire lengths, add wires, use thicker wires or even create winker versions from non-winker version wire harnesses.
 
As promised earlier, a short description in pictures of restoring a wire harness, or in this case a starter relay of a Honda CB450 K0 with a cut-off wire.

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This is the problem, one of the wires is cut..

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Find a similar wire color and with the correct male / female bullet contact. In this case I needed the female part

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First check if it is possible to replace the whole wire, if not then partly (like in this case)

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Cut the female bullet contact from the wire in the length you want

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Take a correct ferule, in this case 1,5 times the gauge of the wire diameter

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Take off the plastic part, or buy naked ferules. I had these lying around, so taking the plastic part off is mandatory.

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put both sides in the ferule and crimp the ferule with the correct tool

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Check for sharp edges and crimp again if necessary, and use shrink tube to cover the bare metal area

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Done, in this case added a small piece of grey umbilical
 
What sort of crimp tool(s) do you use?

For single line use where the connector fits thru the diaphragm:

zelfinstellende-krimptang-voor-adereindhulzen-met-zij-invoering-knipex.jpg

Or when that's not possible:
KNIPEX-Twistor16-Zelfinstellende-krimptang-voor-adereindhulzen-met-draaibare-krimpkop-(240-mm)-9.jpg
I use the second always, although harder to find. This is a professional and expensife tool, but there are cheaper copy's and work just fine.
 
No kidding about expensive, the cheapest I find for the second(97-52-18) one is $156

I know, I bought one locally in an auction, it was in a complete tool-case with a lot of Gedore and Hazet tools, from a bankrupt company.
Good tools are expensive, and if maintained well, will serve you a lifetime.

workbench.jpg

I always invest in good tools, quality and cheap don't go hand in hand. Most work i can do myself at home, and if necessary I do the work in the workshop at the company I work for, with all the tools you can imagine.

btw, the orange pliers at the top in the middle are the mentioned crimp tools.

This weekend I will have some time to proceed with the CB400f, so on topic again !
 
Today I started to design the brake caliper re-design bracket for the Brembo double piston brake caliper. This bracket has to position the Brembo brake caliper in a way that it doesn't interfere with the mudguard, and align the caliper with the disk and front fork lower. After designing I will 3D print one for fitting purposes, and then from aluminium. In the meantime I use the original caliper for the build. Since I work for a large machine builder, milling machines are readily available, small and large. On the big one I use to flatten the cylinder heads and cylinders.

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Small milling machine, mostly used for milling small parts

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Large lathe, I use this one for straighten front fork legs, polish them etcetera


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Large milling machine, this one I use for flatten heads, cylinders and crank cases. I could actually lay down on the milling bed.

This is one of our machine shop locations, and mainly manual machines, except for the large milling machine, which is CNC. The machine shop in our head office has larger and more modern machines, almost all CNC machines btw. I like this small shop, the large shop is too clean and neat, and doesn't smell (good) like this one.
 
^^^Who wouldn't like that small shop? It must be really nice to have that level of equipment at your disposal. (y)
 
Thanks for sharing both of the crimp tools. I thought I had a pretty nice crimp tool for things like bullet/spade connectors, but I don't think it could produce the splice crimp shown in post #213, so I was curious what you use.

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That small machine shop is a great resource to have at your disposal. I guess the machinists there must be aware of your wrenching! How does one go about programming the CNC mill to deck/flatten a head, for example? Seems like that could be tricky, but I've only used one once. It was much, much smaller and it was in the context of a manufacturing processes class during college some 25 years ago.
 
A CNC machine can be used in semi-manual mode, and that's what I did with the help of the machine-operator. I use a large diameter shell head milling cutter for that. Clamping and aligning the head and cylinder are more work then the milling itself.
 
Tonight, I had some time to spend on the bike, and polishing is what I did. The front fork lowers are presentable again. I really don't like this kind of work, but sometimes you have to do something that is out of your comfort zone.

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Next step is to assemble the front forks and then mount them in the bike. I took took the front fork legs to my work today and did clean and polish them in the lathe. Assembling is more the kind of work I like, so hopefully the bike will be on two wheels after the weekend. Next week the carburettors are scheduled, hopefully I can take the bike for a ride before winter takes over....
 
I'm in total agreement about polishing not being enjoyable, but the fruit of your labor will no doubt make the assembly work that much more satisfying. I usually try to minimize reflections when taking pictures, but I understand why you didn't take that approach with the fork lowers. They are gleaming!

I'm excited about the anticipated return to the road.
 
I usually try to minimize reflections when taking pictures

Me too, and the glare you see are no reflections either. I put a little layer of grease on the lens, all grease lines are in one direction. Within my physics study, I specialized in fotonics :)
 
Me too, and the glare you see are no reflections either. I put a little layer of grease on the lens, all grease lines are in one direction. Within my physics study, I specialized in fotonics :)

Very sneaky lens flare! One can never trust a photographer, especially not one who is well-versed in optics.
 
Slowly, but going somewhere. All those small things cost a lot of effort, and in the end you don't see why it took so much time.

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Mounted the horn, a very complicated way of mounting, this is due to rules in the Netherlands which says that a horn should always point forward. Original the horn is mounted pointing sidewards.

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Assembled one front fork leg and mounted the front brake (still original setup). I ordered the Brembo caliper, delivery time is 6 weeks (four weeks to go).


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Progressive springs and standard springs in one picture.

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Tonight I have to sort out the carburettors. New O-rings (ethanol resistant), new main jets (78 instead of 75) and a few other small parts. I do have 2 complete sets, one of my own bike (high miles) and one from a low miles bike. I will use the one from my own bike for now, but I will clean and build the other set. These carbs are prone for mechanical wear and (air)leakage), this will result in difficult and ever chancing synchronizing issue's. I will rebuild the newer set during the winter after plating all the parts.
 

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Here you see the problem with old rubber, unfortunately, a hard to get part, so still looking for one.



I bought one of those new recently in Canada from Mother Honda and CMS presently shows it available. Sub-ceded part # 70284-538-010 for a few bucks or Euros. The CX650E also uses a strap like that in the rear bin on the plastic storage section behind the seat. It holds the tool roll in place with a little rubber tab attached to grab it easier, so another possible option if your not able to get the correct one.
 
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I decided to replace all NBR O-rings rings for Viton O-rings since the NBR cannot stand high percentage ethanol gas over longer periods. Viton is costly (almost ten times more then NBR), but worth the effort and costs since the ethanol percentage in gas will increase in the near future.
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Since I also want to replace the needle and needle jet, the carbs need to be completely dissembled.
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These little parts are causing the most leakage, I replaced the O-rings not only by Viton, but also by thicker diameter (original is 1.8 mm, now 2.0 mm). The diameter of the part is 6 mm, the ID of the hole they fit in is 9.3 mm, so 2 mm thickness makes the total diameter 6 +2+2 = 10 mm. The deformation of the O-rings are a little larger then should be, but since the width of the slot is 2.6 mm, there is room enough to go to.
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I did make pictures of the settings of the connection parts between the carbs, so I can hopefully assemble the carns without trouble.
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I also measured the protrusion of these little adjusters, since they play a very important role in synchronisation.
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Took two ultrasonic cleaners home from work for a week or two, and started to clean all the carbs, parts and petcocks. One is a low frequency (25 kHz), one is a high frequency (40 kHz). First the parts in the LF cleaner, and after that a bath in the HF cleaner. Since I have a lot of CB450, CB72 and dream carburetors (plus petcocks), it t ook the whole weekend plus the coming week to clean everything. After a few runs I filtered the liquids with a special filter, filtering out particles from 0.1 micrometer. This way the filter fluids (Tickopur R33) keep clean.


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Of the two sets for the CB400f, one set (below, not the original set that came with the bike) has some black area's. This is due to a chemical reaction of some sort. Both sets where cleaned in de-greaser before cleaning them in a ultrasonic cleaner. All the carburetors of other the CB450's and the CB72 and dream (plus all fuel cocks I have) didn't show these black area's, so it most be something in the aluminum in combination with chemicals used by the PO on the CB400f carburetors.
 
I can see the discoloration only on one of the bowls in the lower tray. Was it limited to external surfaces?

Do you know which set has less mileage between? How are you deciding which to use for your build?
 
The one with discoloration is the low miles set (+/- 30K km), and indeed, only external surfaces. I'm gonna use the high miles set body's, and all the parts that interfere directly with the body. All other parts are chosen on measurement results and look and feel. Same with the CB450 and CB72 carburettors.

The low mile carburettors had a hard life, the overall quality is lower then the well maintained set on the CB400f that I'm restoring. The PO where I bought this CB400f from did maintain this bike in a way not many people do. Oil changes, repairs and maintenance are well documented, and is a an endless source of experience on top of the FSM's.

The PO (Hans was his name, and passed away a few years back), did always use Castrol GTX oil and changed the oil on the prescribed schedule over +80.000km. He did maintain his carburettors every 20.000 km, so four times in it's machine life. He wrote that he oiled the felts, and all pivot points with engine oil and /or grease. He also sprayed the carbs with bicycle oil, and later with WD40 when available.
 
I wonder if something could be used to remove the discoloration? Alan F suggested toothpaste for aluminum parts and I did use it for some center ribs on drum brake hubs that were very bad and did have some success. I have heard of some using oven cleaner but have not tried that.
 
I wonder if something could be used to remove the discoloration? Alan F suggested toothpaste for aluminum parts and I did use it for some center ribs on drum brake hubs that were very bad and did have some success. I have heard of some using oven cleaner but have not tried that.
I've had success with aluminum brightener. Multiple light applications.

Doesn't work for all discolorations. But some.

69 CB350K1/68 CB450K0
 
I'll try, but I don't know the exact European replacement name for it.

These pictures are from the most ugly bowl, only the outside is effected, and mainly one side.

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I'm not sure what result you are seeking but the somewhat porous metal has fine pitting that I'm not sure will respond to aluminum cleaning products available to boaters etc. Myself, I would use a small rotary tool with the nylon abrasive wheels to remove the dark oxidation and smooth the surface and then take them to the polishing wheel like a side cover. They would look nice but not necessarily stock.
 
I'm not sure what result you are seeking but the somewhat porous metal has fine pitting that I'm not sure will respond to aluminum cleaning products available to boaters etc. Myself, I would use a small rotary tool with the nylon abrasive wheels to remove the dark oxidation and smooth the surface and then take them to the polishing wheel like a side cover. They would look nice but not necessarily stock.

Well that's exactly why aluminum brightener works. It is acidic and gets into the tiny pores. Sure, almost anything can polished out. But that works by abrasion.

I typically use a fine dremel polishing buffer to remove surface oxidation. Wd40, being a better solvent than anything else, works well to help loosen everything up. So, dremel pad + wd40. Clean it off, and 2-3 brief brightener treatments. Then final polish (to desired sheen).

This isn't a super strong acid. But I'd wear gloves if you have to use it for more than one part. I've never hurt aluminum with this. Worst case if it's left on too long is the metal is more grey. But it polishes out.

Like I said, it only works for some types of stains. In which case, it's back to abrasion. Or live with/replace it.

69 CB350K1/68 CB450K0
 
I'll try on a non visible surface to see the outcome. Meanwhile I ordered a 35 kHz ultrasonic cleaner myself, to finish cleaning the pile of carbs, petcock's, transmission gears, shafts valves cams etc. I'm going for a 10 liter unit.
 
Replacing the needles on a four, and especially the smaller ones, is more difficult then I thought. To replace the needle, you have to take the slide and mechanism apart. To do this, you need to have a JIS screw driver with a thin shaft. I ordered one a few weeks ago, and if finally arrived today. This evening I changed the four needles in a blink, including cleaning in the US cleaner, and lubricate the mechanism. Things go a lot faster when having the right tools.

Finally I can assemble the carbs and install this week.

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Yesterday I finished the carbs at last. It took much longer then planned, but I learned a lot. Plus that almost all my carbs are cleaned with the Ultrasonic cleaner, including the stash of CB450's, CB72's, C77's and a few CB750's. Learned a lot about the CB72's carbs, their differences and their similarities, learned that Tickopur 33 is expensive but worth every penny (used two times 5L can's). Learned that I need an Ultrasonic cleaner in the range of 30-35 kHz, learned with which temperatures the best results are gained, learned to disassemble and assemble CB450's carbs blindly and fast. Able to recognize every CB450 carb part and know where it fits, and many more things. For me it was a trip into an a white area on the map, a steep learning curve.

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Meanwhile, I took all parts that need re-plating from the second set I have, and change these parts over time with the parts on this set. I have a huge set of carb parts for re-plating now, from zinc plating, chrome plating to nickel plating.
 
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