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'Clunk clunk clunk' somewhere in the front end

"Clunk clunk clunk" somewhere in the front end

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Here’s what I got.


All the parts are there (including the second speedo washer that was just smushed so tight I didn’t find it the first time).

The place looks clean. I’ll re-do the brakes so they don’t look so wonky (arms parallel).

Any thoughts? Measurements to take? Obvious “duhs”?


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
I don't see anything obvious, but a bad bearing wouldn't necessarily be obvious in a picture. I did see this though - looks like the tabs from the speedo drive were forced onto the hub and not aligned into the notches. Makes me wonder if that was before the noise or after.

speedohub.jpg
 
"Clunk clunk clunk" somewhere in the front end

Good eyes, Tom! Definitely looks that way. Not sure either, but really hope that was before my ownership of it!!!

How would I go about diagnosing the bearing? They spin freely by hand...

Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
If it was mine, I'd find a way to put the axle back in it, tightened up as before with some arrangement of spacers and the axle clamped somehow so you could try to replicate grabbing the wheel like you did earlier and pulling/pushing it from the side to see if the noise exists without the brake backing plate involved. sometimes spinning a bearing isn't enough. Maybe that shop has a spare swingarm that could be clamped in a big vise with some spacers arranged so you could tighten it all up and try it that way
 
Well, when the axle isn't in it the backing plate (not the hub, which the backing plate is going into) will wobble inside the drum. It isn't fitting over anything or into anything that can keep it centered. The axle centers it and the clamping action of the parts all tightened up together keeps the parts from moving on that center.
 
Good news - clunk is gone.

Bad news - the axle is so tight that I can hardly push the bike.

Torqued to 47 ft-lbs with a crow foot at 90 to the torque wrench...


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
Going to call it a night.

Will try torquing the axle to the lower limit next time I’m here and see if it helps.


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
Good news - clunk is gone.

Bad news - the axle is so tight that I can hardly push the bike.... WHY is this bad?,...The axle itself does NOT rotate at all when clamped in the fork bottom caps.... The wheel spins on the bearings....IF the wheel won't spin with the axle torqued there is a spacer missing (an empty space between parts of the spacing tube created by the collars bearing centers and wheel spacers).....

Torqued to 47 ft-lbs with a crow foot at 90 to the torque wrench...


Ed
1972 Honda CL350

Phone me after verification from this diagram:

350 front hub.png
 
There is only one reason that correct torque will cause wheel to 'lock up, you either have spacer between bearings (part number 5 in diagram) missing or the bearings are not properly seated. In either case, the bearing inner race is being displaced sideways. It will be safest to fit new wheel bearings as they could completely collapse after being stressed in direction they were not designed to move.
Just had another thought, a 360 brake plate will 'lock' on a CB350 hub even though they look the same as 350 ( although I think you said it was fine previously?)
 
"Clunk clunk clunk" somewhere in the front end

Steve, I’ll likely take you up on that tomorrow night. you’re correct I meant to say wheel but I said axle.

PJ and Steve, thanks. I noticed that the distance collar (part 5 in Steve’s diagram) is loose, I can wiggle it up and down about a quarter of an inch either way.

If the bearings were pressed in all the way, could this happen?

I have a spare set of front wheel bearings in case they need to be replaced.

edit: And PJ, I’m almost positive this is the original brake plate. The original brakes were still in there from ‘72.

Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
Bearings are not all the way in hub. Find a piece of pipe to knock the next set in. It's i,portant you only hit the outer edge but not damage bearing bore.
the spacer should be tight between the bearing inner races

Bingo, then.

That’s really unfortunate, but I’m glad it’ll hopefully be a simple fix. Maybe one I’ll have the shop eat as it was their install. Or, maybe better to do the work and make sure it gets done right.

Speaking of done right - anyone have a good how to on how to remove and replace the 350 front wheel bearing?


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
Since the spacer is loose it'll move sideways which will allow a punch or drift to catch the inner race of the opposite bearing. Medium hammer to punch it out.
Or a concrete anchor inserted into the bearing, tightened and the a punch and hammer to drive it out.
Bearings are ruined with either approach.
 
"Clunk clunk clunk" somewhere in the front end

As I wrote before, I’m never saying I’m “done”, but the front wheel doesn’t seem to be all “caddywhompus” anymore, as Steve says.

I replaced both bearings. Chilled them a bit and they punched in fine with a hammer and a 1-1/8” or 30mm socket.

Steve has a good tip - install the first bearing until it can’t go any more, then insert the axle through both the inserted bearing and the axle spacer, driving the second bearing home over the axle, which now acts to align all three components.

I had some difficulty doing this without inadvertently popping the second bearing out just a smidge, but was able to prop a second socket on the other side, and with that the spacer is now tight. Clunk is gone for now, but I will put some miles on the bike before calling it done for sure [emoji6]

Oh, and a side note regarding the speedo gear. I lined the two dog ears of the speedo up with the indents on the brake plate, which made indexing the dog ears into the correct spot on the hub much easier.


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
As I wrote before, I’m never saying I’m “done”, but the front wheel doesn’t seem to be all “caddywhompus” anymore, as Steve says.

I replaced both bearings. Chilled them a bit and they punched in fine with a hammer and a 1-1/8” or 30mm socket.

Steve has a good tip - install the first bearing until it can’t go any more, then insert the axle through both the inserted bearing and the axle spacer, driving the second bearing home over the axle, which now acts to align all three components.

I had some difficulty doing this without inadvertently popping the second bearing out just a smidge, but was able to prop a second socket on the other side, and with that the spacer is now tight. Clunk is gone for now, but I will put some miles on the bike before calling it done for sure [emoji6]

Oh, and a side note regarding the speedo gear. I lifted the two dog ears of the speedo up with the indents on the brake plate, which made indexing the dog ears into the correct spot on the hub much easier.


Ed
1972 Honda CL350

I'm NOT going to say it... :rolleyes:
 
I don't see anything obvious, but a bad bearing wouldn't necessarily be obvious in a picture. I did see this though - looks like the tabs from the speedo drive were forced onto the hub and not aligned into the notches. Makes me wonder if that was before the noise or after.

View attachment 4839

Yep, you can see where it wasn't lined up and dented drive dogs on hub.
. I thought everyone used the axle to line up spacer and second beearing?
 
I’m sure everyone what they’re doing does =)

Once Steve mentioned it, it clicked as a “duh” moment, but someone who’s never done it before might put 2 and 2 together.


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
So, is the consensus that the mystery clunk was the loose bearing spacer tweaking around in there with wheel movement?

Glad it's taken care of.
 
That was the cause of the clunk. What the cause of the spacer being loose is, unclear.

Could’ve been the speedo gear being improperly installed in the hub (see ADs post), could’ve been the bearing being installed incorrectly in the first place.

The right wheel bearing had a rough spot when I went to uninstall them. Again chicken v. Egg, who knows, was the bearing bad first? Or was the spacer loose first?

The world may never know.


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
"Clunk clunk clunk" somewhere in the front end

Well. It’s back. See video below for spacer play.

This is not acceptable, correct?

I when I opened up the wheel again, I checked the feta, they were oiled, and each bearing spins freely, no binding spots that I could feel.

There was some specks of stuff in the hub, but I assume that’s accumulated brake dust?

Can I just tap these bearings back into snug or do they need to be replaced again?


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
How were the bearings removed? If you were tapping on the inner race to drive them out then they are junk. Doesn't take much to put dents in the races or balls.
 
I think I figured out what went wrong. Both of the bearings outer races can’t be driven “home” or the spacer inbetween is going to press out against the inner races more than designed.

The outer bearing (right side of the bike) gets driven home, and the left side (speedo side) gets driven until the inner race contacts the spacer, but gently, just to “lock” the spacer in place.

At least this is what some internet sleuthing has given me.

Took it easier on this set, hopefully it yields good results.


Ed
1972 Honda CL350
 
I've never done this job, but if it was ever assembled wrong, and you cranked up on the races and bearings hard enough to lock up the axle, it is very possible you've crushed a shim or spacer enough to muck up how it is supposed to align. I'd be getting a set of calipers and checking the dimensions on all the shims and spacers. Also, possible someone at some point replaced them with the wrong ones. What bearings are you using? On variuous projects over the years I've purchased good bearings and cheap bearings. A few times, the cheap bearings were worse out of the box than the original ones I identified to be in need of replacement, so - now I just go for a good and obviously more expensive bearing, but - considerinng the cost and time of doing the work, a few extra bucks for a really good bearing is nothing.
 
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