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Replacement airbox ducts for CB900F

ancientdad

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My '82 CB900F has never run properly since I've had it. I knew it didn't run right when we bought it and believed it was ignition (90% of carb problems...), but after putting new plugs in it didn't improve it I came to the conclusion it needed the carbs rebuilt. The bike was one of many owned by a guy in Sebring FL and was the last to be sold off, so it sat longer than all the others. It ran very typical of a bike that needed the carbs cleaned, needed more choke when cold than it should, didn't run well at all until very warmed up and ran poorly above midrange. It had supposedly been jetted for a set of red, cheesy pod filters that were on it (Dynojet sticker under the seat on the inner fender) but with the PO deceased I was unable to get any accurate information.

A local riding buddy with lots of salvage connections both here and in his home state of Wisconsin managed to find a couple of stock airboxes for the CB900C, which uses the same box but with a different top bracket. Unfortunately all the ducts (hoses) to the carbs were long gone. CMSNL did not have originals, but they did sell aftermarket replacements. Not finding anything else anywhere, I ordered them. Not overly expensive and of course, likely much cheaper than NOS had they been available.

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Well, I've never had to use replacement ducts in a used airbox before but they looked the part and were pretty soft and flexible, after all they're new. I never dreamed there would be anything else to consider. And because of the airbox shape, you want it in the frame first before you put the carbs in and with others here having some success moving the ducts into the airbox to make more room for the carb re-installation, that's what I did. Needless to say the carbs were a PITA to get the cables connected and back into the intake stubs, but the real fight was still ahead.

While these ducts look good, they miss the mark on the manufacturing specs. The groove molded into them for the body of the airbox is not the correct width so they are ridiculously difficult to properly seat. It took my buddy and I - yes, all 4 hands, 3 on the outside and one of mine inside the airbox to assist, in order to get them properly seated. After days of trying to get the outer 2 done by myself, it was finally done.

Except it wasn't. The minute I tried to put the battery box back in the bike and it bumped into the back of the airbox, even with the ducts on the carbs and all clamps in place, it shifted the airbox a little and 2 of them popped out.

I didn't go to work on the bike right away after I received the ducts because I was busy with other things, and after looking at them out of the box it appeared they were correct. So now I have no recourse, and trying to slice a millimeter off the width of that groove to make them fit more correctly is NOT an easy task, I've already tried. But short of taking the carbs back out and starting over and somehow gluing them in place, that's about my only option.
 
Aaaaaaargh !

..but I want to repeat here for you and others who read this in the future :

I cringe often when reading around here - the frequency of people joining, excited they've just got a new used bike but it isn't running at all or correctly and they'll have to service the carbs and stress the rubbers on both sides (intakers from airbox & outputters to cyl heads) of them to do so...

..with the state of all things rubber for our bikes being what it is, a DOWNER FOR SURE...

Anyway, I (like you) wouldn't have expected too narrow a groove in those CMS aftermarket boots either, geeeeez !

What I wanted to add is to consider or re-consider next using a rubber cement (Elmer's, Wurth, etc..) or a black silicone adhesive/caulk and letting it cure for a couple of days to help the cause of keeping those rascals from popping out upon re-installation IF you can get to the inside of your airbox to apply the stuff.

ALSO, (and it's been over a year since reinstalling my carb racks and airboxes on my 450Customs) but I remember there being some forward-rearward play ability before final cinching of the 3 bolts that hold my 450 airbox to the frame - just a reminder to see if you can move your SuperSport's box forward at all before final tightening of its mounts.

AND, I still think it's better to install the cyl-head-side intake manifold ducts onto the carb rack, clamp 'em, and then install the rack onto the engine with bolts and then install the airbox and boots onto installed carb rack. Obviously, an extra pair of hands (friend, wife, shopmate back in the day, etc...) does help indeed

I think this because I can't stop thinking that it's got to be easier to bolt the rack (with its manifolds already snapped/clamped onto the rack) onto the cyl head than it is to snap the rack into 4 manifolds bolted to the cyl head.
AND THEN, with the rack firmly mounted to the manifold ducts (which are bolted to the head already), to then push forward the airbox and its boots onto the stationary, installed-onto-cyl-head rack.

This, because the airbox boots are of a more flexible rubber and are constructed without metal, unlike the thicker, rubberized-metal intake manifolds are constructed (on my 450 they are rubberized metal).

That is the crux of my reasoning. And I'm speaking from twins-world, not 4 cylinder world... and I'm feeling your misery and feel it every time I look at th -4 and -6 cyls for sale and bought on auction sites !

Just food for thought, because I'm a disciple of yours (and the other elders and admins around here), and I know it's an unusal day or time when you and the other experts have feel again a little Aaaaaaaargh ! time

Sending you good-karma-wizard wishes for success in round 2 !

Ian C.
 
You could maybe try a few new manicurist fingernail boards in that groove. I'd go for the courser grit. If necessary freeze them hard first.

Was there any forward or backward tension? The bead on the outside looks thicker than the inner one, so I'd think it would pop out to the outside, not into the airbox. If a bump from the back (pushing forwards) popped them out, not in, then maybe some tension pulling back just dislodged them.
If possible to scooch the box forward a couple mm or even ease the carb end off the throat just a skoosh, to get to neutral tension.

The longer they do stay put the more they will adapt after time and heat cycles, but if needed, I'd use the expensive roof and gutter type sealant which has butyl in it, far superior to outdoor grade silicone (I used to do commercial windows and doors). My Suzi GS750 had some warped ones from long time incomplete/incompetent seating that would not stay, or at least seal completely, that I smeared a bead around, inside and out, and it has held up for 5 years so far, even through a couple rack removals, so semi-permanent. I would loosen the rear carb clamps and let that caulk completely harden (5-7days, I think) before stressing much. It even comes in black! Awesome sauce.
 
...IF you can get to the inside of your airbox to apply the stuff.
Only one entry to the airbox, lower left side where the long rectangular air filter slides in. The opening is large enough to get my hand inside, but the airbox is not an open cavity inside - it has an oval hole where the air filter seats/seals and it does not extend the full length of the outer length of the airbox. So, I can easily reach some of the backside of the rear edges of the 'velocity stack' molded into the inner 2 (middle pair) ducts, but nowhere close to the forward area of the airbox where they actually seat. So putting anything on them would require doing it before forcing them into the airbox, which would effectively smear it all over the place and not get any sealant where you actually want it. And the outer pair are completely unreachable from the air filter tunnel inside.
ALSO, (and it's been over a year since reinstalling my carb racks and airboxes on my 450Customs) but I remember there being some forward-rearward play ability before final cinching of the 3 bolts that hold my 450 airbox to the frame - just a reminder to see if you can move your SuperSport's box forward at all before final tightening of its mounts.
It moves forward and backward only about an inch. It almost doesn't even need a mount, it's wedged in between the outer rear frame downtubes and even with the battery box out, moves forward and backward very little at all. But it does move left and right just a bit, which is what little movement caused the never-fully-seated-correctly ducts to come loose.
AND, I still think it's better to install the cyl-head-side intake manifold ducts onto the carb rack, clamp 'em, and then install the rack onto the engine with bolts...
And while I agree, it doesn't work that way with most of Honda's 4 cylinders - the boots connecting to the head are slipped over tubular stubs on the head, plus they're at different angles (#11, 12, 13 and 14).

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But I do appreciate the thoughts and suggestions, and the logic behind it.

I'm afraid I'll have to start back at the beginning with the airbox out again, install the ducts with some sort of adhesive, let them cure/dry, then put the box back in and hope they stay in place while I force the carbs back in between.
 
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The bead on the outside looks thicker than the inner one, so I'd think it would pop out to the outside, not into the airbox. If a bump from the back (pushing forwards) popped them out, not in, then maybe some tension pulling back just dislodged them.
Yes, the outer bead is larger diameter than the inner bead. But, the side force of the forward side of the battery box bumping the wider seam area of the middle of the back of the airbox pushed the airbox sideways just a bit and that is all it took for the ducts to become dislodged, which tells me the groove is not quite wide enough for thew thickness of the body of the airbox where the holes are for the ducts. And it also explains why they were so difficult to seat to begin with - had the grooves been the right width for the plastic thickness they were supposed to fit, they would have eventually popped into place and it should have taken some force to make them come out of the grooves, but they were only pushed in flush on the outside and seemingly locked into the grooves, but not solidly or completely.
 
Not fun. At least with the box out maybe feel inside the boots from the open carb end to feel the inner lip, if it's seated.
 
Not fun. At least with the box out maybe feel inside the boots from the open carb end to feel the inner lip, if it's seated.
Even that would be difficult because of the length of the molded velocity stacks on the end inside the airbox. But I hear you.
 
AD as I noted in the PM I think part of the issue is the inner lip isn’t seated all the way around on the boots. It sounds like the design isn’t correct in the reproduction parts for the slotted groove area. As you noted the air box design isn’t friendly for confirmation of that very easily. The stock boots have the 438 digits with 1 to 4 noted on the top of each boot to verify the correct position and orientation for alignment. I suspect the aftermarket ones don’t have those markings??

You will need to cement the outer large rubber flanges on each one to the air box to help secure them once you confirm they are correctly seated internally. So yes it is carbs out and air box out to resolve the issue, then the few tricks to move the air box as far back as possible.

You shouldn’t need to remove the battery box to get extra room rearward, yet any of the drain hoses that attach to the front or rear can be reattached later to the box and left off during the installation.
If you start with installation of the two outer ones first you should be able to verify through the two empty inner box holes part of the seated inner flanges. You can also buy pretty cheap now those tiny flex cameras that use your phone as the screen for internal viewing as another option.

This tells the tale of woe.


4 cylinder carbs.png
 
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Well this sucks(n):mad:
+100 :( on that. I KNOW the feeling !

I have ordered 2 used airboxes recently;one after the other and had to return both.
They were for a different bike than yours; although I have similar remorse
I ordered them just to get the same type rubber flanges/hoses that you're doing.
Both Times,the used ones were damaged and not useable.
The one I need is NLA but I'm still hunting with a part#.
I'm going to widen my search a bit more. :unsure:;)
 
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I suspect the aftermarket ones don’t have those markings??
And you would be correct. All the aftermarket ducts have on them is 'CMSNL'. Though the part numbers are different and the OEM outers are marked 1 and 4, I personally do not see any visual differences between them (at least in these from CMSNL). It's easy enough to get them properly oriented in the airbox though, because they have flat sides on the inner 'velocity stack' area due to their close proximity with each other, so the flat side plus the angle of the outer ducts to mate with the carbs correctly makes that easy to figure out. I had all 12 clamps in place and all seemed well, and actually might have been had I not disturbed them during the battery box installation. I wonder if once the engine heat got to them while in place if the ducts would have softened enough to finish seating in, but it's academic at this point since it will all have to come out again. I only removed the battery box at the suggestion of Mike Nixon after asking him privately what he could think of to help me gain a little bit of rearward movement for the airbox to help with the duct installation, but in his defense he was not fully aware of my situation and did not realize I was working with a used airbox that didn't have the ducts still in it and was trying to piecemeal together with aftermarket parts as well as a C airbox on an F.
 
AD here are a couple of options for not too much money and the air box already has the tubes installed as factory pieces. Paul just confirmed for sure he sold those stock ones with his CB900C sale so not an option.



 
AD here are a couple of options for not too much money and the air box already has the tubes installed as factory pieces. Paul just confirmed for sure he sold those stock ones with his CB900C sale so not an option.



The top listing you posted looks good.
I would like to find a similar listing for my airbox tube which I've been searching for..
 
The top listing you posted looks good.
I would like to find a similar listing for my airbox tube which I've been searching for..
It maybe just as cheap to find a complete air box. In the above examples there isn't a lot of difference in price between them. These bikes (CB900C) are pretty reasonable for parts overall, where your air box maybe less common.

Try putting a search into EBay for the parts with a notification when a new listing for that part is listed. I have found many parts that way ... even years later.

Does this work for you?

 
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AD as a recommendation on your air box as I am sure it has the same input for the combustion fumes from the engine that is routed directly into the carbs from the hose that connects here. It is a good work around to just vent that hose to atmosphere with a small filter cap on the end. I usually extend the hose to get away from the top of the air box.

The issue is those oil fumes are directly sent right into the carb venturis and bypass the air filter, or any filtration system within the air box. In a short time the carbs get gummy with a black residue around the aluminum slides and in the interior in general. I think Mike Nixon covered this issue on one of his technical papers on his website.

I have encountered this issue numerous times on the dozen CB DOHC bikes I have restored over the years. My current CB1100F had the same black oily deposits when I cleaned them this past fall. I have been doing this mod for years and it will help keep the black muck from the carbs in the future.

Here is the port I am referring to on the top front side of the airbox.


Air box 1.JPG
 
AD as a recommendation on your air box as I am sure it has the same input for the combustion fumes from the engine that is routed directly into the carbs from the hose that connects here. It is a good work around to just vent that hose to atmosphere with a small filter cap on the end. I usually extend the hose to get away from the top of the air box.

The issue is those oil fumes are directly sent right into the carb venturis and bypass the air filter, or any filtration system within the air box. In a short time the carbs get gummy with a black residue around the aluminum slides and in the interior in general. I think Mike Nixon covered this issue on one of his technical papers on his website.

I have encountered this issue numerous times on the dozen CB DOHC bikes I have restored over the years. My current CB1100F had the same black oily deposits when I cleaned them this past fall. I have been doing this mod for years and it will help keep the black muck from the carbs in the future.

Here is the port I am referring to on the top front side of the airbox.


View attachment 29796
Yes,it also gets the pistons and rings carboned-up.
I install a small K&N PVC filter on the hose downstream.
 
AD as a recommendation on your air box as I am sure it has the same input for the combustion fumes from the engine that is routed directly into the carbs from the hose that connects here. It is a good work around to just vent that hose to atmosphere with a small filter cap on the end. I usually extend the hose to get away from the top of the air box.

The issue is those oil fumes are directly sent right into the carb venturis and bypass the air filter, or any filtration system within the air box. In a short time the carbs get gummy with a black residue around the aluminum slides and in the interior in general. I think Mike Nixon covered this issue on one of his technical papers on his website.

I have encountered this issue numerous times on the dozen CB DOHC bikes I have restored over the years. My current CB1100F had the same black oily deposits when I cleaned them this past fall. I have been doing this mod for years and it will help keep the black muck from the carbs in the future.

Here is the port I am referring to on the top front side of the airbox.
Thanks for the thought. Already capped both ports on the airbox and Teed the 2 crankcase breather hoses together into a short road draft tube.
 
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