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Mousetown, my own 73 CL350

Frames do require the frame number to be stamped on the headstock, and in theory at MOT time the inspector should check this. In practice, a cursory glance at the VIN plate is probably all that occurs.

In the example I gave, I got my new V5 issued on the old K4 frame with its stamped frame number. Once I had this, as the bike was MOT exempt it was unlikely that anyone would ever look at it again, unless I suppose in the case of a serious RTA a crash investigator might notice that there was no frame number ( ground away ) on the replacement frame. If I had serious criminal intent I could have bought a set of stamps off Ebay and added the frame number, but I felt leaving it blank was the correct thing to do, as would be the case if I'd got a brand new replacement frame.

Regarding the MOT exemption, I have mixed feelings about this. I'm happy not to have to undergo the annual inspection, I'm confident that my bikes are safe, I'm their only rider and it's my neck on the line. However, it does make me wonder how many of the exempt vehicles out there are unsafe, either through ignorance or deliberate negligence.
 
Richard Pitman said:
Frames do require the frame number to be stamped on the headstock, and in theory at MOT time the inspector should check this. In practice, a cursory glance at the VIN plate is probably all that occurs.

In the example I gave, I got my new V5 issued on the old K4 frame with its stamped frame number. Once I had this, as the bike was MOT exempt it was unlikely that anyone would ever look at it again, unless I suppose in the case of a serious RTA a crash investigator might notice that there was no frame number ( ground away ) on the replacement frame. If I had serious criminal intent I could have bought a set of stamps off Ebay and added the frame number, but I felt leaving it blank was the correct thing to do, as would be the case if I'd got a brand new replacement frame.

Regarding the MOT exemption, I have mixed feelings about this. I'm happy not to have to undergo the annual inspection, I'm confident that my bikes are safe, I'm their only rider and it's my neck on the line. However, it does make me wonder how many of the exempt vehicles out there are unsafe, either through ignorance or deliberate negligence.
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I understand,thanks Richard. ;)
 
Hey Chris, (quote thing not currently working) I found some EMT tubing that I think might work. I know it's got zinc coating but the Hamber Bilt Deox-C says it'll take that off. According to the specs, it's got about a 1/8 wall thickness, which seems about right. Any concerns on using it?

1-1/4 in. x 10 ft. EMT Conduit 101576 - The Home Depot


Or any of you welders out there got a comment? I got a HF 90amp flux wire welder, probably set to low and slow.
 
ballbearian said:
Any concerns on using it?
1-1/4 in. x 10 ft. EMT Conduit 101576 - The Home Depot
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I would be concerned about the strength of conduit, which is not typically used to support anything other than itself and whatever is running inside. I would go for something more like this, possibly with a thicker wall than what I linked. I saw that this supplier near me has wall thicknesses of 0.25", 0.188", and 0.120" among others and sells 1' and 2' pieces online.
 
Remove VIN tag and slide a good frame under it.

Just because it has a title does not make it worth repair. that frame will never be safe structurally no matter how much effort you put into patching it up.
 
Twin Town said:
Remove VIN tag and slide a good frame under it.

Just because it has a title does not make it worth repair. that frame will never be safe structurally no matter how much effort you put into patching it up.
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That's pretty much how I feel too after seeing all those pictures. I think I'd take the risk of re-stamping another frame.
 
The 350 frame has no separate tube to isolate the steering bearing cups. Whatever crap is loose inside the frame can migrate to the bearings. I spent a fun afternoon once with a small wire wheel on a drill extenson grinding away whatever I could reach through the headstock (cups removed). Then I used a shop vac and a long blower tube on an air hose nozzle to remove as much loose rust and dust as possible, turning the frame upside down and thumpling it on the ground. Finally, I taped a small-ish paint brush to a long wooden dowel and painted Rustoleum as far inside the frame as I could reach.
 
ballbearian said:
Hey Chris, (quote thing not currently working) I found some EMT tubing that I think might work. I know it's got zinc coating but the Hamber Bilt Deox-C says it'll take that off. According to the specs, it's got about a 1/8 wall thickness, which seems about right. Any concerns on using it?

1-1/4 in. x 10 ft. EMT Conduit 101576 - The Home Depot


Or any of you welders out there got a comment? I got a HF 90amp flux wire welder, probably set to low and slow.
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Please don't. That stuff is not structural in any sense of the word.
There is too much structural damage to the frame. There's a reason why frame builders use chrome-moly tubing. The only repair that will give the frame it's close to original rigidity is replacement steel, after cutting out any steel that has pits in it. Thin surface rust is ok but the pits create weakness. Patching and filling leaves the rest of the metal compromised.
If you're planning on building this to park as a show piece then fine. If you intend to ride it faster than @20mph you're building a death trap.
Short version of above? You have a titled piece of scrap metal.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
Please don't. That stuff is not structural in any sense of the word.
There is too much structural damage to the frame. There's a reason why frame builders use chrome-moly tubing. The only repair that will give the frame it's close to original rigidity is replacement steel, after cutting out any steel that has pits in it. Thin surface rust is ok but the pits create weakness. Patching and filling leaves the rest of the metal compromised.
If you're planning on building this to park as a show piece then fine. If you intend to ride it faster than @20mph you're building a death trap.
Short version of above? You have a titled piece of scrap metal.
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Thanks, and thanks to everyone else above, at least with the EMT tubing. It was a dumb idea and I'm too old to start a new career as a crash test dummy.(n)
 
Sorry I wasn’t around to follow up and answer in the past day or so but wiser minds chimed in and it seems the right decision has been made. And for the record I winced at the idea of using EMT for the suggested purpose.
For what it’s worth there is a CL350 frame (no title) here in SC that came my way via Ancientdad a year or so ago. I could possibly make that frame available if it would help you and your project and we figured out how to get it to you.
 
12ozPBR said:
Sorry I wasn’t around to follow up and answer in the past day or so but wiser minds chimed in and it seems the right decision has been made. And for the record I winced at the idea of using EMT for the suggested purpose.
For what it’s worth there is a CL350 frame (no title) here in SC that came my way via Ancientdad a year or so ago. I could possibly make that frame available if it would help you and your project and we figured out how to get it to you.
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I'd completely forgotten about that frame, but it would certainly solve his problem. The challenge will definitely be getting it there.
 
I don't think I'd be comfortable letting a bike with this kind of repair get into anyone else's hands, but if you're doing it for yourself and you get a result you trust, I see no harm in attempting the repair with appropriate materials. You seem interested in the learning opportunity and you can reevaluate before committing to a full build. It's not like you don't have other projects...
 
ancientdad said:
I'd completely forgotten about that frame, but it would certainly solve his problem. The challenge will definitely be getting it there.
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Thanks guys but I have other options right here.

Mousetown is now currently condemned, unless, at a later time, a full-on radical surgery along the lines of LDR's direction is attempted. I'm not saying that it absolutely won't happen or whether the Vin # vultures will pick it's carcass clean. I do plan on a consult with my friend Mark, a VW trike and chopper builder, MC drag racer and decades of shop wrenching experience, to consider a proper rebuild.

Or, the untitled CL parts bike ('71?) may assume the Mousetown Vin #. Either way, I will update this thread, as my goal was to do a build and/or to present a cautionary tale.
 
ballbearian said:
Thanks guys but I have other options right here.

Mousetown is now currently condemned, unless, at a later time, a full-on radical surgery along the lines of LDR's direction is attempted. I'm not saying that it absolutely won't happen or whether the Vin # vultures will pick it's carcass clean. I do plan on a consult with my friend Mark, a VW trike and chopper builder, MC drag racer and decades of shop wrenching experience, to consider a proper rebuild.

Or, the untitled CL parts bike ('71?) may assume the Mousetown Vin #. Either way, I will update this thread, as my goal was to do a build and/or to present a cautionary tale.
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Tom,good to hear your options.
 
Dag-gone, it's a plague of mice, the little Philistines! This is the second frame (parts bike) and it has the same area infested. Only about a third as much stuff came out.
Maybe I can get my buddy to use his android endoscope down there. I'm hoping it will be passable.

GM9bPU9.jpg


SJEgvDL.jpg


After I get the headstock vin metal transferred, then there is all the seat hardware fittings to move over. Still, maybe better than the tube replacement on the '73, maybe.

Now I'm a bit worried about the 2 other CB350 projects in the storage trailer :frown:.
 
ballbearian said:
Dag-gone, it's a plague of mice, the little Philistines! This is the second frame (parts bike) and it has the same area infested. Only about a third as much stuff came out.

Maybe I can get my buddy to use his android endoscope down there. I'm hoping it will be passable.
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And of that third, how much would you say used to be part of the frame, as opposed to organic matter that found its way in? Bummer about the seat and tank mount removal, although I'd much rather weld stuff like that on than do reconstructive surgery on the downtube.

Do you have an Android phone? I'd l be happy to loan you my little camera. You saw what it can and cannot do.
 
stl360+450 said:
And of that third, how much would you say used to be part of the frame, as opposed to organic matter that found it's way in? Bummer about the seat and tank mount removal, although I'd much rather weld stuff like that on than do reconstructive surgery on the downtube.

Do you have an Android phone? I'd l be happy to oan you my little camera. You saw what it can and cannot do.
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Not sure how much is rust and how much is rust colored mouse poop.

I bought one that said it would work on my Apple but haven't got it to work yet.
 
ballbearian said:
Dag-gone, it's a plague of mice, the little Philistines! This is the second frame (parts bike) and it has the same area infested. Only about a third as much stuff came out.
Maybe I can get my buddy to use his android endoscope down there. I'm hoping it will be passable.

After I get the headstock vin metal transferred, then there is all the seat hardware fittings to move over. Still, maybe better than the tube replacement on the '73, maybe.

Now I'm a bit worried about the 2 other CB350 projects in the storage trailer :frown:.
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The frame on the right side is the 1971 CL350;where did the seat mounting hardware disappear to ?
 
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That's the same difference with the 175's, K4/K5 has the rear hinged seat, K6/K7 has the (much better, IMHO) side hinged seat with lock.
 
ballbearian said:
I bought it 2 1/2 years ago for cheap but it had a title. No carbs or side covers but not bented and danged. Motor was free and, once home showed 160 and 170 compression. Damp barn storage had supplied mucho patina so I stripped it down to roller with motor in it and it's been hanging out with a hunk of carboard across it as my gasket table. At some point I saw some small holes near the steering neck so I began poking in them and found a lot of debris coming out. After stirring with a screwdriver and suction of shop vac, I had a couple quarter sized holes and a few smaller ones. A pile of pea sized seeds of some sort and lint hunks suggested a rodent redoubt. Now I had an even better reason for procrastinating.
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Everyone's concern for ballbearian's safety in this situation is admirable. This whole story started because he was observant enough to poke at those rust holes and investigate further. It makes me wonder how many of us would cringe if we knew the remaining wall thickness of the frame tubes on our own 50 year old bikes that we ride on a routine basis. As long as no holes have appeared, and it has been blasted and painted (or powder coated) . . .
 
fxray said:
Everyone's concern for ballbearian's safety in this situation is admirable. This whole story started because he was observant enough to poke at those rust holes and investigate further. It makes me wonder how many of us would cringe if we knew the remaining wall thickness of the frame tubes on our own 50 year old bikes that we ride on a routine basis. As long as no holes have appeared, and it has been blasted and painted (or powder coated) . . .
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It is kind of a testament to the uncertainty of barn and field finds, especially those that sat untouched for a decade or more. Plenty of time for all kinds of wildlife to make themselves at home, and it's a good point you make about it Ray. My 450 didn't appear to have sat too long (though I do know it did for some period of time, the rear tire had an area with sidewall cracks from sitting flat for a while) and the frame was blasted and powdercoated. Fortunately the drag bike frame only had rust on the lower parts from sitting in the dirt under Chris' house. I've been fortunate to never come across a frame with the amount of rust that Tom's has.
 
fxray said:
Everyone's concern for ballbearian's safety in this situation is admirable. This whole story started because he was observant enough to poke at those rust holes and investigate further. It makes me wonder how many of us would cringe if we knew the remaining wall thickness of the frame tubes on our own 50 year old bikes that we ride on a routine basis. As long as no holes have appeared, and it has been blasted and painted (or powder coated) . . .
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Thanks again Ray. One doesn't hear of Honda frame failure AFAIK, very often, if at all. Over design for strength is surely a plus for these unforeseen ravages. The 350's in particular are a blessing and a curse, the open hollow headstock is perfect for a mousetown but since the engine is not really a stressed member there may be a lot of half rotted frames still on the road.
Plugging the two channels near the rear of the gas tank mounts, going up the backbone would foil Mr.Bojangles settlement dreams.
 
ballbearian said:
Thanks again Ray. One doesn't hear of Honda frame failure AFAIK, very often, if at all. Over design for strength is surely a plus for these unforeseen ravages. The 350's in particular are a blessing and a curse, the open hollow headstock is perfect for a mousetown but since the engine is not really a stressed member there may be a lot of half rotted frames still on the road.
Plugging the two channels near the rear of the gas tank mounts, going up the backbone would foil Mr.Bojangles settlement dreams.
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I like the idea of plugging-up the two frame channels toward the rear of the fuel tank.
I would consider using restaurant/commercial grade heavy duty stainless steel pot scrubbers;those things are thick stainless steel.
 
Well I just got back from the title service, lighter $172.90, to legitimize my VIN number. I'll feel better now cutting metal.
 
bilbikek411 said:
Please explain the process in MD.
Does that mean an NCIS? check by an officer ?
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Nope, nothing. Just a legitimate title with nothing altered. If it was reported stolen then I assume the state portal they use would flag it. Just pay your money and new title will show up in the mail from the state.

When I go to register and plate it there won't be an inspection because it will be done as a 'historic" plate. I will have to call my insurance co tomorrow because the state now has my multi bike policy number.
 
ballbearian said:
Nope, nothing. Just a legitimate title with nothing altered. If it was reported stolen then I assume the state portal they use would flag it. Just pay your money and new title will show up in the mail from the state.

When I go to register and plate it there won't be an inspection because it will be done as a 'historic" plate. I will have to call my insurance co tomorrow because the state now has my multi bike policy number.
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The $172.90 gets you the bike titled in your name ? the title must have been a MD. title.
I'm glad you will be registering the CL350 & getting it back into road use under you.

I had my small Honda titled and registered in Pa. previously so when I went to register the bike here in Ca. they did their own inspection at the local DMV a 1/2 mile down the road from me and I walked it down the bike path.
I brought my previous state title to them.
They went outside and looked at both my frame stamped VIN & VIN plate# plus engine #.
I had to do this because it was from out of state.
 
bilbikek411 said:
The $172.90 gets you the bike titled in your name ? the title must have been a MD. title.
I'm glad you will be registering the CL350 & getting it back into road use under you.

I had my small Honda titled and registered in Pa. previously so when I went to register the bike here in Ca. they did their own inspection at the local DMV a 1/2 mile down the road from me and I walked it down the bike path.
I brought my previous state title to them.
They went outside and looked at both my frame stamped VIN & VIN plate# plus engine #.
I had to do this because it was from out of state.
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Actually was a Virginia title. I just wanted to make sure this VIN was not stolen, etc., before I put more work into it.

I also took care of my CB160 with the PO's Utah title and did the whole tamale, walked out with registration and new plates. $232.50. Again, no inspection, just give them the money.
 
Part of me wanted to believe that Mousetown would hold up under normal usage, but abnormal usage happens. I could see it folding like a cheap suit too. Even carefully laid out and my pretty many hours with a metal scrollsaw, it was tough to cut a perfect square section from the curved headstock.

DMY7Cli.jpg


I doubt it would have been any better with a cut-off wheel. I just resigned myself to extra time cleaning up with a file.


ZygNyo2.jpg



Ready to weld, grind and blend with the flap disc.


4tofJU2.jpg



Then the seat hinges, lock and helmet hook are next. I might try to swap the longer thread right shock mount too. Then I'll need a chrome rear grab bar that goes around the seat to both sides.
 
ballbearian said:
Part of me wanted to believe that Mousetown would hold up under normal usage, but abnormal usage happens. I could see it folding like a cheap suit too. Even carefully laid out and my pretty many hours with a metal scrollsaw, it was tough to cut a perfect square section from the curved headstock.

I doubt it would have been any better with a cut-off wheel. I just resigned myself to extra time cleaning up with a file.

Ready to weld, grind and blend with the flap disc.

Then the seat hinges, lock and helmet hook are next. I might try to swap the longer thread right shock mount too. Then I'll need a chrome rear grab bar that goes around the seat to both sides.
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Looking Good (y)

Tom,I used to prep my jobs which I sent over to welders in the past,to save some $ so all they needed to do was just weld it;they told me it helped if I would cut the sharp edges down a bit and taper around the edges of the two parts to be welded together. I remember one of the fellows explaining it;he said "use a rotary tool and 'V' it" :lightbulb: They said it would allow more weld to go into the gap much deeper along the edges,rather than having the weld sit only on top. It worked well.
 
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bilbikek411 said:
Looking Good (y)

Tom,I used to prep my jobs which I sent over to welders in the past,to save some $ so all they needed to do was just weld it;they told me it helped if I would cut the sharp edges down a bit and taper around the edges of the two parts to be welded together. I remember one of the fellows explaining it;he said "use a rotary tool and 'V' it" :lightbulb: They said it would allow more weld to go into the gap much deeper along the edges,rather than having the weld sit only on top. It worked well.
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Yep. Better full depth penetration, especially if thicker stuff and using a stick arc welder. My cheapy HF flux wire is good for this thin stuff but I'm sure to make a mess of it anyway. That's why I cut so the VIN would have a 1/2" border around it, less chance of welding over it. We'll see.
 
So far so good, nice work Tom. That's about as clean as anyone could expect given the situation, and with some good welds and proper cleanup it should pass the eye test just fine with the location it will be in and the other stuff in the area like cables and wiring.
 
Excellent, looking forward to seeing how this turns out. My attempts at Mig welding always disappoint me, would love to try Tig welding one day, they make it look so easy in the videos ....
 
Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. My self taught amateur welding skills will be challenged even more now that I've received a very generous gift of an additional damaged frame from VHT member stl360+450. He was on a road trip to visit friends and dropped by to bring it and hang out for a bit. I asked him to sit on a bike for a pic to memorialize the occasion.

SypUpD4.jpg


That frame will get some bits from Mousetown's carcass but will have to be another project in the future. It is another CL and has a title, so it needs to be saved too.


Thanks again Brody. I really enjoyed our visit.
 
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Very cool to see, VHT members from across the US getting together. Doesn't happen often enough as far as I'm concerned, especially here in Florida.
 
ancientdad said:
Very cool to see, VHT members from across the US getting together. Doesn't happen often enough as far as I'm concerned, especially here in Florida.
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He even had his T shirt on and drove quite a bit of extra miles to get here. If I weren't so obliged here, a winter Florida road trip for a visit sounds great.
 
Welded, ground down and smoothed. It took awhile and I had to turn up the power to max and the feed rate. It'll do.

LfuMxuP.jpg



Barely got enough penetration but it's not really structural.


PuPuFf6.jpg




Next, all the rest of the fittings for the seat.
 
Cycleranger said:
That turned out pretty good. A skim coat of bondo and some paint and it's good as new.
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I'm liking that filler primer since I tried it. No mix, just spray, dry, sand, repeat if necessary. I've built up almost a mm before. The PO went crazy with extra thick paint over dirt, rust, whatever so I'm scheming ways to easy strip. I have some aircraft stripper, never tried it, maybe now is the time.
 
ballbearian said:
I'm liking that filler primer since I tried it. No mix, just spray, dry, sand, repeat if necessary. I've built up almost a mm before. The PO went crazy with extra thick paint over dirt, rust, whatever so I'm scheming ways to easy strip. I have some aircraft stripper, never tried it, maybe now is the time.
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I have used Klean-Strip Strip-X Stripper and gotten good results. Paint it on, watch the paint curl, then rinse it off with water.
 
Cycleranger said:
That turned out pretty good. A skim coat of bondo and some paint and it's good as new.
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a light skim coat of bondo with a very small,flexy plastic putty knife in key areas.
The thing with the spray can of filler primer,it will fill-in the VIN #'s too..
 
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