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CD175 engine

No, even with sprockets aligned correctly the chain is still too tight. Using a piece of worn cam chain to make up a new starter chain didn't help either. If only someone made a 219t half link I'd be sorted, but doesn't look as though such a thing exists.

I can only think that when Honda bore the cases for the starter nose on the factory electric start bikes they don't do it exactly concentric with the casting hole but offset fractionally toward the crank centre.
I think you’re onto to something.
Tried posting this photo before, but it wasn’t in jpegs format (took me a while to figure out how to change it)
Note the metal keeper & screw. Your‘s appears as though its out further than the CB175 in the photo.
Also, if I’m interpreting your comment on the concentric bore; measuring the center to center of what you have and a CB175 might shed some light on it.
(Random thoughts from a bored person, -9degF outside)

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Another thought. What if the taper of the crankshaft to stator didn’t allow it to seat further down. This would tighten the chain. Is it possible CB and CD parts are “just” that different?
 
If the rear legs of the starter are shorter it could be pulled out of parallel and levering it tighter. A couple washers under the 6mm bolts might line it up.
 
If the rear legs of the starter are shorter it could be pulled out of parallel and levering it tighter. A couple washers under the 6mm bolts might line it up.
That is actually how I got the chain to be a bit looser on the first engine that I did this mod on, and I will try that here. Means that the starter motor 'leans' inward, out of parallel with the starter clutch sprocket.

I had also already thought about the suggestion Ray made, about measuring one of the factory fitted starters, but at the moment that would involve extracting a bike from a subzero lockup garage, draining the oil then removing the alternator side cover. One of those motors (CB175) is already running same CB200 parts as fitted here, and that chain is fine.

The other more radical idea that occurred to me is to enlarge the mounting hole to move the starter motor inboard a fraction, then using the dreaded RTV to bung up the resulting sloppy fit. As we know from adjusting final drive chains, it only takes a minute adjustment on the chain pullers to go from slack to taut.

All this said, I can get the chain onto the sprockets, just that it is very tight. The stock item has a bit of slack in it. I'm worried that running the chain too tight will put a strain on the crankshaft main bearing on that side - is that a valid concern ?
 
Another thought. What if the taper of the crankshaft to stator didn’t allow it to seat further down. This would tighten the chain. Is it possible CB and CD parts are “just” that different?

Pretty sure that the cranks are same, and rotor tapers are the same. The sprocket on the starter motor is free on its splines, can move in or out a little way to get aligned with the starter clutch sprocket. All just puzzling that this situation has arisen for a second time, wonder how the chap who originally did this mod, and inspired me to have a go, got on.
 
All this said, I can get the chain onto the sprockets, just that it is very tight. The stock item has a bit of slack in it. I'm worried that running the chain too tight will put a strain on the crankshaft main bearing on that side - is that a valid concern ?
I would think the starter bushings and/or the chain would suffer long before the crank bearing would be affected.
 
Your sprocket seems much bigger than the one in the factory CD manual:

View attachment 28622

That looks like a different engine to mine, a sloper 175 perhaps ?

I do have the correct part number for the 13 tooth sprocket, used on a range of engines according to CMNSL. 31202-216-154, which how mine arrived in a Honda bag with this part number on it.
 
I would think the starter bushings and/or the chain would suffer long before the crank bearing would be affected.
Agree, the 219T chain will stretch a bit like any drive chain would and all would likely be well. The starter bushing might wear faster than the chain though, not sure of that.
 
That is actually how I got the chain to be a bit looser on the first engine that I did this mod on, and I will try that here. Means that the starter motor 'leans' inward, out of parallel with the starter clutch sprocket.

I had also already thought about the suggestion Ray made, about measuring one of the factory fitted starters, but at the moment that would involve extracting a bike from a subzero lockup garage, draining the oil then removing the alternator side cover. One of those motors (CB175) is already running same CB200 parts as fitted here, and that chain is fine.

The other more radical idea that occurred to me is to enlarge the mounting hole to move the starter motor inboard a fraction, then using the dreaded RTV to bung up the resulting sloppy fit. As we know from adjusting final drive chains, it only takes a minute adjustment on the chain pullers to go from slack to taut.

All this said, I can get the chain onto the sprockets, just that it is very tight. The stock item has a bit of slack in it. I'm worried that running the chain too tight will put a strain on the crankshaft main bearing on that side - is that a valid concern ?


I believe the starter assembly will freewheel once the Sprague clutch has kicked out and the starter is no longer activated to turn the motor over. It maybe worth just monitoring it since it only engages for a short period of time. The chain may stretch slightly, or the bushings in the starter will possibly wear.

Can you pluck it like a string in the key of "S" ....... or is it just snug and a little taught?
 
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With some washers under the mounting screws, the chain fits with just a tiny amount of play in it, still much tighter than normal. I'll just have to wait until the cylinder head is on, and engine filled with oil, before I can test it. Still waiting on valve stem seals, despite promises that they were posted last Friday. :mad:

Incidentally, I can't understand the purpose of the chain keeper, not fitted ( I don't have a spare one ) in second photo below. Everything is so firmly in place, can't see that the chain or crankshaft sprocket are going anywhere.

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Richard, I don’t want to appear rude, but I don’t like the angle of that top bolt with the washers.
And, if you look back at two of your earlier photos, I wonder if the hole you drilled should have been 1 to 2 mm more towards the engine?

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Richard, I don’t want to appear rude, but I don’t like the angle of that top bolt with the washers.
And, if you look back at two of your earlier photos, I wonder if the hole you drilled should have been 1 to 2 mm more towards the engine?

I know what you are referring to, but no, it's not cross threaded, the screw does indeed enter the case at that angle. I agree, if the hole that I bored was a couple of mm inwards, my chain tension issue would probably be solved. However, as a preliminary to boring the main hole, I established the exact centre of the casting hole by using the next size down hole saw to centralise the pilot drilling, then worked from that. Ensured hole drill parallel to the cases by use of this tool that I made up. Maybe Honda bored the hole eccentrically.

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And at the time I thought you'd done a great job at centering the hole like the factory would have, which to me is what makes this unusual.
 
I've actually got a CB250 / 350 starter motor sprocket sat here in front of me as I type this. It is unfortunately exactly the same diameter as the 175/200 part. It fits the motor splines, but doesn't work on the 175 due to the different offset of the sprocket. It is the same thickness as the 175 part but has the raised centre on both sides, fouling the outer case.

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Just found this photo of my previous attempt, on the SL175 engine. CB250/350 starter sprocket fitted in this photo, sprocket same on both sides ie not fitted back to front. Raised portion prevents outer engine case from being fitted, and of course, chain was just as tight with this sprocket fitted.

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Although the angle is different to service manual pic, the actual sprocket on starter clutch looks smaller in manual?
The outside of teeth look about level with bearing boss but yours look like bottom or middle of teeth level?
As for rotors, put the Guiness down, it's firing before TDC.
The difference is probably due to electric starter, closer to TDC, less chance of a backfire when battery is a bit low which will damage starter clutch.
That would explain a different ATD with limited travel so it won't over advance (Hmm, swapping a CD advancer to get more advance, wonder how much?)
Usually you have fire around 36 deg BTDC, few more degrees could give bit more HP?
Oh, when checking valves, pour into port and not combustion chamber, it's easier and more accurate but does take longer
 
Yes, thinking about it, I do mean that the ignition advance means that it fires before TDC, not after, didn't express my self very well earlier.

I do have the CD175 advance mechanism, but it is currently rusted solid, despite weeks immersion in various solutions, penetrating oil, clock cleaning fluid etc. Might take the propane torch to it, see if that helps.

The starter clutch sprocket is correctly aligned with that case boss, see picture below snipped from Ray's engine. Sprocket teeth higher than boss.

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I gave up on waiting for the missing valve stem seals to turn up, placed a new order with Wemoto and they came within a couple of days. New seals are nice and flexible, slipped easily over the exhaust valves stems, so soon got the head reassembled and dropped into place on the cylinder block. Then realised that I hadn't fitted the tensioner rod and spring, good job I hadn't gone further with the build.

This morning, fun with the endless cam chain, bolt on cam sprocket and cam shaft. At first, seems impossible to slot it all together without using brute force, then suddenly it all becomes clear, and everything drops easily into place. Maybe this is an example of 'Zen and the art' ?

Then several attempts at getting the cam timing right, involves removing the cam journals each time so that the cam drops down sufficiently that the chain can be lifted off the sprocket and moved round one tooth. After going in the wrong direction a few times the stars have now aligned, and it's time to install the rocker shafts and rockers, then refit the journals with gaskets etc, and torque it all down. But that's for later, time for lunch. Must remember to thread lock the cam bolts.
 
A few gratuitous pics, before I get back into it. Last couple of pics were intended to show the cam timing, but the lines on the cam are buried too deep in the head to show. Why they didn't just use the little 'o' as on the earlier 175 cams I can't imagine. Not as if the two lines on the late CD175 / CB200 cam actually line up with anything.

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I bought some nice new shiny screws to fix the cam journals. CNMSL states 6 x 20 for the right side, 6 x 16 for the left side. I got a pack of 10 6 x 20 screws, assuming that extra 4mm would not matter. It does, so it'll be bench grinder time next week to shorten 4 of those screws. I could use the manky butchered originals but I get a bit OCD about knackered screw heads, which reminds me that I must also sort out the screws that hold the starter motor in place. Using my shiny new Laser Tools JIS T handle driver, gets things tighter than my Vessel driver does.

And my gasket set had only 1 correct gasket for the cam journals. Luckily found a spare one in a half used gasket set in the loft.
 
...but I get a bit OCD about knackered screw heads
I agree Richard, I hate seeing JIS screws with ruined heads in a nice clean engine. Most of them in my 450 engine were either very badly corroded or the heads nearly destroyed so I replaced them all for a consistent look. And that T-handle will serve you well, the leverage you get with one is great for working with JIS screws.
And my gasket set had only 1 correct gasket for the cam journals. Luckily found a spare one in a half used gasket set in the loft.
Jeez, the inconsistency in aftermarket parts quality just seems to never end.
 
Nearly all together now. Needs the head to be torqued down, valve clearances set etc. No ignition parts fitted yet, stator wiring needs checking. I've elongated the mounting holes on that clone carb, so that it aligns with the inlet port. No idea how well it is jetted, will suck it and see once ( if ) the engine runs. No rush with this one, just enjoying the build. I did run into one snag this afternoon, old cam seal on the points side was well and truly stuck in position. Wouldn't simply lever or drift out, I had to drill some small holes into the seal metalwork, then rip these apart with needle nose pliers until I had enough metal standing proud to be able to yank it out.

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Nice job. I see your "test stand" is lurking in the background and currently occupied!
Thanks, yes that's the plan. Take out the rebuilt SL175 engine that I couldn't make run last year, get this one going ( fingers crossed ) then dig into the SL175 engine, try and figure what's going wrong. If nothing else, this CD motor is now cosmetically a lot nicer than when received ..

Mechanical tacho not an option on the CD175 motor, hence my interest in finding a cheap electronic tacho that will correctly work with the 175 wasted spark. Test rig will convert the CD to 12 volts.
 
Thanks, yes that's the plan. Take out the rebuilt SL175 engine that I couldn't make run last year, get this one going ( fingers crossed ) then dig into the SL175 engine, try and figure what's going wrong. If nothing else, this CD motor is now cosmetically a lot nicer than when received ..

Mechanical tacho not an option on the CD175 motor, hence my interest in finding a cheap electronic tacho that will correctly work with the 175 wasted spark. Test rig will convert the CD to 12 volts.
Cheap inductive chainsaw tach. No power required.

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Head torqued down, valve clearances set, filled with oil.

Checking oil feed to top end. Had to spin the engine on drills fastest speed to get oil up the right rear stud. Nothing obvious at the left rear stud, so I removed the cam cover to have a look inside. Everything appears nice and oily, on both sides, so I assume ( risky ! ) that when the engine is running it'll be pumping harder and oil will be getting up there. Based on the above, you'd never get oil up to the top end by simply cranking the kickstart. I did take care to check that the oil passages to the left hand cam bearing were clear, very small drilling in engine top case at that side, also very small drilling into the left side cam bearing scroll. Both sides fed from the same main oil gallery in the engine cases. Top cover refitted and torqued down again.
 
How the time flies. Spent several hours yesterday afternoon attempting to sort out the wiring on the stator. PO had cut off the original connector and grafted some horror show plug and wiring onto it. Crimps so badly made they just pulled apart.

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I crimped the correct female spade connectors onto the wires, ready to fit into the correct connector body. The neutral wire is of course obvious, but the other three on this CD175 stator were not distinguishable. Same colour fabric sheath, same yellowed white PVC underneath. I was able to check that stator was OK, no continuity between any of the three wires and ground, but full continuity between all three wires, measured in three separate pairings.

And that is where my expertise with a multimeter ends. I tried measuring the resistance of each wire pair, on the basis that the yellow / white pair could be identified by having the highest resistance, due the longest run of wire in their windings. However, no matter what ohms scale I tried on my meter, readings were all over the place, only consistency seemed to be that the measurements for each pair of wires appeared to be similar. So I either need to go back to school or possibly buy a new meter. I gave up and pushed the new crimped connectors at random into the remaining three spaces in the connector block. I guess I'll be able to measure the outputs once the motor runs, sort them out then.

Spent the rest of the time trying to cobble together a throttle cable for use with the single carb and the twist grip on my test rig, until I realised that the existing twin carb throttle cable worked perfectly well using just on of the carb throttle wires after the splitter.
 
John is comparing apples and oranges.......Manual shows "Sloper" engine which used a different starter-motor.......

Still catching up on many threads.....:oops:
Bugger, only just noticed the manual I took that from was using the sloper engine!

luckily I’m using the right owner’s manual and parts book 🙄

The work I did when I had the engine out did come from that sloper manual…. This one:

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No recent progress, apart from connecting the battery and testing the electric starter, which turns the engine over nicely, without any nasty sounds from the starter clutch. Just need to fit some ignition parts and hook up the fuel line now. Real life and laziness keeps interrupting ...

Wasted hours this last couple of days, on the telephone fraud line at my bank, reporting some quite large unauthorised debits from my bank account. Bank have stopped my debit card, replacement on the way, ' 5 working days ' without a working debit card. :eek:
 
Wasted hours this last couple of days, on the telephone fraud line at my bank, reporting some quite large unauthorised debits from my bank account. Bank have stopped my debit card, replacement on the way, ' 5 working days ' without a working debit card. :eek:
SO much fun, I feel your pain Richard. Even our forum bank account has been a victim of unauthorized charges, twice, and that debit card never leaves my house. But they've made it right both times happily, once while my wife and I were shopping and I got a fraud alert text from them. I suspect your bank might outsource the support based on your description of the phone call. Ours (amazingly) has US-based support and the calls were far less painful than others I've had to make.
 
Two of the support staff that I spoke to were very clear spoken, possibly UK based, but the other two that I spoke to were had very heavy accents, difficult to understand what they were saying at times. Seems ironic that some of these call centres are possibly located in the same regions that the scammers are based. Doesn't look as though I'm actually going to loose any money over this, just my time and temper.
 
Two of the support staff that I spoke to were very clear spoken, possibly UK based, but the other two that I spoke to were had very heavy accents, difficult to understand what they were saying at times. Seems ironic that some of these call centres are possibly located in the same regions that the scammers are based. Doesn't look as though I'm actually going to loose any money over this, just my time and temper.
Agree, time and frustration are the things that annoy me as well, it's usually a phone call you hate to have to make. When I get someone on the other end who I can't understand because of a language barrier, I first try hard to listen more carefully and if that doesn't do it, I politely ask for someone who speaks better English. At this point in my life I do not care if someone gets offended by it, I realize it isn't their fault but the fact that the corporation they indirectly work for is doing it that way isn't mine either. Usually the next person speaks clearer English, often a supervisor. If all else fails, I simply tell them I'll call back and that often results in a clearer-spoken person first. My mortgage servicer was the most recent incident that went that way, and the supervisor was easy to understand - despite her not at all agreeing with my reasoning about our escrow situation (ridiculous situation due to large yearly homeowner's insurance price increases).
 
I don’t know if you did, but NEVER use a debit card online, only a credit card and preferably PayPal.
My wife used to have to deal with the fallout of trying get peoples money back who had their debit cards cloned/scammed/used online etc.
 
I don’t know if you did, but NEVER use a debit card online, only a credit card and preferably PayPal.
My wife used to have to deal with the fallout of trying get peoples money back who had their debit cards cloned/scammed/used online etc.
I just learned a difficult lesson on that.. :cry:
 
I don’t know if you did, but NEVER use a debit card online, only a credit card and preferably PayPal.
My wife used to have to deal with the fallout of trying get peoples money back who had their debit cards cloned/scammed/used online etc.
That's useful advice. I do use Paypal most of the time, but some sites, like Amazon, store your debit card details, as does this wretched Ringo parking app nonsense. Just wish I could still pay for parking by coin or debit card in the parking machine reader, rather than faffing around looking for a mobile signal and then having the 'app' crash on me. I suppose I should substitute a credit card for my debit card in the Amazon scenario ?
 
I suppose I should substitute a credit card for my debit card in the Amazon scenario ?
Yes. John's advice is good, debit cards of course give the thief direct access to your money. With our forum bank account we don't have a choice, the bank gave us a debit card and unless I wanted a credit card from them in my name (which I do not need), that's all we have so I tied it to my PayPal account for added security. I've never actually had any trouble from purchases through Amazon with my wife's and my credit cards stored, they seem to be pretty strong on security. It's like pay-at-the-pump gas stations, I only use a credit card there as well and ALWAYS grab the snout of the card reader to be sure there isn't a fraudulent reader added over top of the real one. While it's inconvenient to have to pay the credit card bill, even if you don't carry a balance, it provides that extra layer of security as well as the option to dispute any charge you did not make. The oddity of our forum card being compromised is that we've only used it for two or three direct purchases with large, reputable companies like hosting services and yearly domain payments, so it's as if someone stumbles upon the opportunity somehow (or God forbid, inside information from one of those).
 
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