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CD175 engine

Better safe than sorry for sure.

I wonder as I previously noted since there is mains power on the pump and as you noted vapours with flammable liquid. I have used both materials (Varsol) and (Citrus based degreaser) in mine and the volatile liquids work best, yet I am always outside in an open gazebo, so no burning the house down.

Given the country of origin for manufacture of the device too, it could be dicy indoors for sure.
With the HF wash tank, the lid has a safety release on it that reacts to heat and is designed to release and let the lid close. Again, I have this exact unit and have used (and left in it the entire time) 2 different petroleum-based solvents since buying it over 6 years ago. I close the lid when I'm not using it and despite that, of course, the solvent does slowly evaporate, but the pump works as well today as it did when I bought it. It's had some portion of a 5 gallon pail of solvent in it all year round, including during 90+° heat in the summer. Like many pieces of electrically-powered equipment in shops, I've worked around parts washers most of my life and I've never seen one catch fire for any reason. The solvent has a fairly high flash point, it isn't at all like gasoline or even diesel fuel.
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Product Overview​

The CENTRAL MACHINERY™ 20 Gallon Parts Washer with High-Flow Pump circulates at 315 GPH (gallons per hour) for a fresh supply of solvent. This parts washer has a conveniant flexible spigot that allows you to direct solvent flow over parts. A parts basket and removable parts shelf are included.
  • Heat resistant lid with fusible link arm closes automatically in case of fire
  • Flexible nozzle directs solvent flow over parts
  • Heavy duty welded steel construction
  • Conveniently placed on/off switch for easy access
  • 20 Gallon tub with steel drain plug
  • Removeable parts shelf and parts basket
  • Includes heavy duty steel stand with storage shelf
 
What marketing genius thought it would be nice to add a rose scent to a bike cleaner:unsure:
Seems to be a trend over here, all sorts of 'fragrances' added to bike cleaning products.


I blame the hipsters ...
 
Richard, is your transmission a 4 speed or a 5 speed with the 3 shift forks on the drum? I need a shot of the 3 shift forks on the drum, if you have that available in your cases if possible please.
 
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The CD is a four speed, with two selector forks, but I have plenty of shots of previous 5 speed boxes.

Coming up ....

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So those are the guts one needs to do G-man's 4 to 5 speed conversion on the 160's. I wonder if that conversion would work on the CD 175 sloper too.
 
On the upright 175 engines the parts look to the interchangeable - the two gear clusters and the selector drum and forks.

I had thought about fitting the five speed trans from a CB200 into this motor, but I'm not sure if the CB200 main shaft is drilled to take a clutch pushrod. I really don't want to fit a CB200 clutch lifter - pure prejudice - the CB200 outer cases are really ugly, and the CB200 clutch lifter mechanism looks like a nasty kludge IMHO.
 
On the upright 175 engines the parts look to the interchangeable - the two gear clusters and the selector drum and forks.

I had thought about fitting the five speed trans from a CB200 into this motor, but I'm not sure if the CB200 main shaft is drilled to take a clutch pushrod. I really don't want to fit a CB200 clutch lifter - pure prejudice - the CB200 outer cases are really ugly, and the CB200 clutch lifter mechanism looks like a nasty kludge IMHO.
Plus, the entire right crankcase cover has to be removed to clean the oil filter.
 
But back to the strip down. I finally got that valve cap off. Heat, penetrating oil and vice grips all failed, so I broke out the power file and ground the rounded hex down so that a 17mm 6 six sided impact socket was an interference fit ( aka hammered on ), then the mains impact driver got it unscrewed easily.

Removed all four tappet adjustment screws, to unload the cam shaft. Took the eight screws out of the two cam journals, using the battery impact, came out easily. Undid the two cam sprocket bolts next, then pulled the cam journals off the head, followed by the rocker spindles and rockers, bagged up and labelled according to position in head.

Then a fun few minutes waggling the endless cam chain and loose sprocket about, until it all aligned and I was able to lift the cam out. Cam lobes are excellent. A trace of free play in the right hand bearing ( where the tacho drive would go on a CB engine ), but I think that will taken up by the oil film in a running motor, optimist that I am.

Head off, all looks OK in there, as do the piston tops and cylinder bores. Cylinder block firmly stuck at the moment ( yes, I did remove the M6 bot at the rear ), left that challenge for another day.
 
On the upright 175 engines the parts look to the interchangeable - the two gear clusters and the selector drum and forks.

I had thought about fitting the five speed trans from a CB200 into this motor, but I'm not sure if the CB200 main shaft is drilled to take a clutch pushrod. I really don't want to fit a CB200 clutch lifter - pure prejudice - the CB200 outer cases are really ugly, and the CB200 clutch lifter mechanism looks like a nasty kludge IMHO.
So (bear with me, I'm slow) the sloper and upright 175 are the same? That must mean the 160 too, since Graham says the 175 5 speed will drop in, with his modified shift drum.
 
Sorry, I meant that I think the gearboxes were interchangeable between the upright CD175 and upright CB/CL/SL models. I know nothing about the sloper engines.


No, I'm sorry, I was just pipe dreaming about G-man's conversion and what it would take to find all the bits. Here is an easier question. Why is British comedy so damn good?
 
And another.

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Richard,

Thank you for those. I am trying to determine if the middle shift fork was somehow mounted incorrectly, if that is possible. The middle fork has some nasty rubbing marks where the two outer ones are pristine. Something maybe wrong with that middle fork or gear on the shaft. With the various metal bits in the lower case that I discovered, yet nothing broken in there presently, something happened in the past in there.

It seems many parts do interchange between the sloper 175 and the upright 175. I will cross reference the shift drum and shift forks on your motor to verify first.
 
Back in the shed, cylinder block yielded to a good thump with a hammer and piece of wood.

On first sight, pistons look great, no evidence of blow by, rings free and oily. Bores look good as well. Pictures to follow tomorrow, oily hands and mobile phone don't mix.

Cylinders studs removed, as documented elsewhere. Makes access to pistons and cam chain tensioner much easier. Pistons removed from rods. Rod ends excellent. Different to earlier 175 engines that I've seen, two oil way drillings in each eye,* again, photo to follow.

With the endless cam chain, central wheel of tensioner has to be removed to unthread the cam chain. Discovered where the lock tabs from the oil pump had gone to, spanner muppet had fitted them to the cam chain tensioner retaining bolts.

Case inverted, crank removed. Three original split dowels and one solid dowel, guess muppet lost one of the originals. At least he did fit a dowel, made sure oil way aligned OK.

* EDIT Ignore that, originals also have two drillings for small end oil :sleep:
 
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Now here's something interesting. Vendor told me engine came from a '76 bike, and internals support this, one piece primary drive cogs, endless cam chain, detachable cam sprocket etc. Should have an engine number starting 4000, but my cases are numbered 2010190. So, vendor is mistaken or a fibber, or something catastrophic happed to the bike / engine in the past, and internals were rebuilt into a set of second hand cases, which would explain some of the issues that I've found. ie nice top end not matching somewhat bodged bottom end. If only they could talk ......
 
Made a start on cleaning up the cases. I took a flat diamond file to the damaged areas, and it now looks as though the cases will bolt up reasonably flush, hopefully leak free it I'm careful with the Honda Bond.

Before

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After

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Bit of a dilemma now. Given the apparent good condition of the top end, do I just clean everything up and just rebuild, using new seals, gaskets and fasteners ?

Or do I splash out on a new cam chain, even though the present one seems OK, fit new standard size piston rings after checking for bore wear ? Even fitting new rings poses another dilemma. IMD pistons in the UK have new rings for 45 UKP, plus I'll need new circlips. But for 66 UKP, they do a complete kit of rings and circlips, along with new pistons and gudgeon ( wrist ) pins ?

Referring back to that recent Millyard Z900 rebuild video, that's essentially what he did. New cam chain, new rings from IMD. He reused the original pistons as they and bores were not worn, checked by slipping a 2 thou feeler gauge between piston skirt and bore. He honed the bores himself, not sure if I'd be happy doing that. He also replaced one valve guide, then just lightly lapped in the valves, didn't recut the seats so far as I could see.

On reflection, there's actually no rush to get all this done, so maybe I'll get the bottom end sorted, worry about the top end next month or so. Remembering to fit the endless cam chain before bolting up the bottom end ...
 
Richard,This latest engine you're working on had a few surprises and challenges to overcome.
I see the majority of the top-end looks good,so far.
I like the way you're soldiering-ahead with your projects (y)
 
Bit of a dilemma now. Given the apparent good condition of the top end, do I just clean everything up and just rebuild, using new seals, gaskets and fasteners ?

Or do I splash out on a new cam chain, even though the present one seems OK, fit new standard size piston rings after checking for bore wear ? Even fitting new rings poses another dilemma. IMD pistons in the UK have new rings for 45 UKP, plus I'll need new circlips. But for 66 UKP, they do a complete kit of rings and circlips, along with new pistons and gudgeon ( wrist ) pins ?

Referring back to that recent Millyard Z900 rebuild video, that's essentially what he did. New cam chain, new rings from IMD. He reused the original pistons as they and bores were not worn, checked by slipping a 2 thou feeler gauge between piston skirt and bore. He honed the bores himself, not sure if I'd be happy doing that. He also replaced one valve guide, then just lightly lapped in the valves, didn't recut the seats so far as I could see.

On reflection, there's actually no rush to get all this done, so maybe I'll get the bottom end sorted, worry about the top end next month or so. Remembering to fit the endless cam chain before bolting up the bottom end ...
I'm pretty happy for you finding such a good looking top end. I'd be tempted to check the ring gap with the rings on those minimally used pistons. If they are still in spec that would be pretty cool.
Experienced guys that can use a feeler gauge in a bore can even guess fairly well how much ovality and taper there is. If it was bored when the pistons were replaced last then that may be good too.
You had only one pic of the small ends but it looked good too, so even the wrist pins may be fine.
Ball flex hones seem to run about $30-40 US and it's not a hard job to do, even if using the original rings, I'd do it.

My grandad used to say, "Never look a gift horse in the mouth".
 
It all depends on the final use for the engine whether to spend the extra money on the top end. These motors are pretty easy to work on to replace the top end stuff. Reusing the old parts is an option that can be reversed if needed later.
 
Thanks, yes that makes sense. Get the bottom end sorted out now, including cam chain. Easy enough to rebuild the top end if and when it needs it.

Regarding honing the cylinders, how did Honda finish them when the bikes were new ? Just looking at the bottom section of cylinders, below the area swept by the piston rings, I can see no evidence of cross hatching, just a nice smooth surface.

While the bottom end is apart I'm planning on boring the cases to take an electric start, then fitting a blanking plug to the resulting hole, just keeping future options open.
 
Thanks, yes that makes sense. Get the bottom end sorted out now, including cam chain. Easy enough to rebuild the top end if and when it needs it.

Regarding honing the cylinders, how did Honda finish them when the bikes were new ? Just looking at the bottom section of cylinders, below the area swept by the piston rings, I can see no evidence of cross hatching, just a nice smooth surface.

While the bottom end is apart I'm planning on boring the cases to take an electric start, then fitting a blanking plug to the resulting hole, just keeping future options open.
This has me thinking .... as my CD 175 is 6v . Are you going to change to 12v so as to run a starter motor?. Mine is slowly coming together and wondered about going to 12v but would need to change stator as well as all bulbs etc.
 
All my 175's are 12 volt already. Sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the stator and rotor would be OK as they were, output being AC at up to 40 volts depending on rpm ?
I believe that would be true, others have done it and only changed the bulbs, rec/reg unit and (maybe) the ignition coil along with the battery obviously.
 
Got the case bored to take the starter motor. When I did this mod on another engine I used a 46mm hole saw straight off, and the resulting hole was a slightly sloppy fit. So this time I used a 45mm hole saw, resulting hole too small. Followed through with the 46mm saw, hole still very tight fit on the nose of the starter motor. Eased the fit using half round file followed by abrasive paper, now a very snug fit on the motor. I used the tool that I made for the first job, inspired by earlier work by Rod Fryatt. First photo is from that job, other two current handiwork.

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And far more professional looking than a universal rubber 'freeze plug' offered by so many cheesy aftermarket sellers.
 
Fits nicely. I didn't drive it fully home while testing it. Looks like it'll be a tight fit, but I'll use some bearing fit goo for a secure job. Much cheaper than some bespoke starter blanking plugs.

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That's a great find and inexpensive for a fix. The Sloper CL175 I am doing has the Honda blanking plug from the factory and it has a large O ring in the middle of the plug with a cutout groove. I guess that is an oil area on that side of the engine with the need to seal it from leaking. Shouldn't be an issue if you have a tight fit and it is rather remote on the frontal area, so I would think minimal oil exposure.
 
Spent too much time this afternoon, reassembling the pizza cutter gear selector thingy. Comes apart much more easily than it goes back together. :mad:

Then discovered that I've mislaid two of the long M8 case bolts. More time wasted searching high and low, finally gave up and took matching bolts out of my spare CB200 bottom end. I expect the missing bolts will turn up somewhere, always ( by definition ) in the last place I look.

Test assembly of cleaned parts into cleaned cases. Another panic, looked as though both gearbox shafts were missing thrust washers from the ends of the shafts with the brass bushes. Blaming the chimp again, must have forgotten to put them back in. Then realised that I was looking at a schematic of the CB 5 speed box, checked on CMNSL to see that 4 speed CD box doesn't have washers in those places.
 
That's a great find and inexpensive for a fix. The Sloper CL175 I am doing has the Honda blanking plug from the factory and it has a large O ring in the middle of the plug with a cutout groove. I guess that is an oil area on that side of the engine with the need to seal it from leaking. Shouldn't be an issue if you have a tight fit and it is rather remote on the frontal area, so I would think minimal oil exposure.
Use some Hondabond.
 
Scrap starter test fitted.
So does this case area need enlarging because there was no starter supplied from the factory? Strange that Honda would have a different size case area for ones without a starter vs ones that came with a factory starter. Or are you using a larger sized starter from a different model that you have in your parts stock?
 
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Curious question here. My Sloper CL175 left motor side case have two small seals (single lip) on either side of the shifter shaft exit from the side case. There is a needle bearing sandwiched in-between these two oil seals. Nowhere on the parts fiche does it show these two small seals. It only shows the needle bearing in the case to support the shifter shaft.

The seals are 18X12X4.5 mm in size and are the standard AT brand seal used on all the other seal areas of the motor. Mine are kind of sketchy from 60+ years in the case. I have located a source on EBay for a proper sized seal from a generic manufacturer, yet expensive to buy and ship. Just wondering if you have replaced these, or even have them in your motor(s) in the upright CL/SL series?


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So does this case area need enlarging because there was no starter supplied from the factory? Strange that Honda would have a different size case area for ones without a starter vs ones that came with a factory starter. Or are you using a larger sized starter from a different model that you have in your parts stock?
The UK CD 175 and the US SL 175 don't have an electric starter. The crankcase is 'blind' at that point, casting not machined to take starter nose, although the case does have the two threaded holes to take the starter mounting screws. I'm using the standard 175 / 200 starter motor. Here's a couple of photo's, second one is an immaculate SL175, not mine. :cry:

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Curious question here. My Sloper CL175 left motor side case have two small seals (single lip) on either side of the shifter shaft exit from the side case. There is a needle bearing sandwiched in-between these two oil seals. Nowhere on the parts fiche does it show these two small seals. It only shows the needle bearing in the case to support the shifter shaft.

The seals are 18X12X4.5 mm in size and are the standard AT brand seal used on all the other seal areas of the motor. Mine are kind of sketchy from 60+ years in the case. I have located a source on EBay for a proper sized seal from a generic manufacturer, yet expensive to buy and ship. Just wondering if you have replaced these, or even have them in your motor(s) in the upright CL/SL series?


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The upright engine only has a single seal on the gear shift shaft, located inboard in the sprocket area.
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Here's the output shaft area. Gear shift shaft is the lower opening, seal waiting to be fitted. Shaft then passes through outer sprocket cover, no seal or bearing at that point.

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I see the needle bearing in the cover for support of the shift shaft on the CD and early CB sloper engines, and apparently #18 is the second oil seal.


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The inner seal is in the fiche that shows the shift shaft and lower case along with the washer and circlip

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Thanks AD and Richard. I missed that #18 and yes the outer cover is different than the other motor outside covers. I now realize this is not an oil area and those seals are used to keep the roller bearing grease in and dirt out. So I will reuse mine in that case since the seals are cheap enough, yet the shipping is the killer making them expensive.
 
Curious question here. My Sloper CL175 left motor side case have two small seals (single lip) on either side of the shifter shaft exit from the side case. There is a needle bearing sandwiched in-between these two oil seals. Nowhere on the parts fiche does it show these two small seals. It only shows the needle bearing in the case to support the shifter shaft.

The seals are 18X12X4.5 mm in size and are the standard AT brand seal used on all the other seal areas of the motor. Mine are kind of sketchy from 60+ years in the case. I have located a source on EBay for a proper sized seal from a generic manufacturer, yet expensive to buy and ship. Just wondering if you have replaced these, or even have them in your motor(s) in the upright CL/SL series?


View attachment 27564


View attachment 27566
A person doubled-up two oil seals on the shift shaft outer area:what are the measurements of the seals you have from there ?
The measurement numbers are printed on the outside of the seal.

I think it's possible to use a new seal of similar dimensions,just thicker.
 
A person doubled-up two oil seals on the shift shaft outer area:what are the measurements of the seals you have from there ?
The measurement numbers are printed on the outside of the seal.

I think it's possible to use a new seal of similar dimensions,just thicker.
No I missed the #18 part as the seal part and assumed it was the aluminum roller cage of the roller bearing. Not as sharp as I once was it seems. ;) I will reuse the old seals, as they function as grease retainers and dirt seals only. I have one on each side and the case is cut to accept two seals, yet the fiche only shows one on the inside section, not the outer section? Seals are cheap and shipping is $20-25, so not worth the effort to replace IMO.
 
I got the cases together yesterday, all nicely Honda Bonded and torqued up. Fitted the gear shift shaft. Called it a day.

This afternoon, fiddling with the gear shaft, managed to get the gear box to lock solid. Worried about the consequences of starting a motor with a locked gearbox, I took the cases apart this afternoon. Everything checks out, all gears in correct places on their shafts. I did have the gear selectors out and then refitted, but it's impossible to get those back in the wrong position, I hope ???

Just twiddling the selector drum I can get all four gears and neutral to engage, so I've just reassembled it all again. Impact drill driver certainly speeds up getting those case bolts in and out, followed by torque wrench on the M8 bolts, M6 bolts being done up by 'feel'. I shall just leave the box in neutral, hopefully it'll shift more easily with the motor running.

Photo taken before cleaning and disassembly, but they've gone back in same positions.

UimkVFN.jpg
 
I got the cases together yesterday, all nicely Honda Bonded and torqued up. Fitted the gear shift shaft. Called it a day.

This afternoon, fiddling with the gear shaft, managed to get the gear box to lock solid. Worried about the consequences of starting a motor with a locked gearbox, I took the cases apart this afternoon. Everything checks out, all gears in correct places on their shafts. I did have the gear selectors out and then refitted, but it's impossible to get those back in the wrong position, I hope ???

Just twiddling the selector drum I can get all four gears and neutral to engage, so I've just reassembled it all again. Impact drill driver certainly speeds up getting those case bolts in and out, followed by torque wrench on the M8 bolts, M6 bolts being done up by 'feel'. I shall just leave the box in neutral, hopefully it'll shift more easily with the motor running.

Photo taken before cleaning and disassembly, but they've gone back in same positions.
Richard, I questioned the same thing with the CL175 shift forks on my build. My friend Paul who is pretty savvy with this stuff said it is pretty well impossible to put them in backwards. The slots would not align properly on the drum is one thought. They would possibly not engage the shift quadrant gear cutout correctly, as the space between the sides of the forks is miniscule in clearance.
 
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