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    AD

CB450 Black Bomber - Am I becoming a hoarder?

Thanks for your observations Jensen. I don't know if you recall the condition of this bike when I got it but I knew that it would never be restored to a museum or concours level. My goal was always to have a really nice Black Bomber, but never a perfect one. A bike that enthusiasts would love and purists would probably scoff at. As one goes along decisions need to be made about acceptable compromises considering available parts, condition of the originals and budget. As I assemble things they often go together and come apart again more than once. Every time I assemble a component group I discover missing or broken parts and have to go back and start again. I'm now at the point where I have a list of about 25 minor items that I need to purchase. Of course no single supplier has them all so orders are going out all over the world. I'm doing rough assembly of almost everything to try to make sure that nothing is forgotten before I place international orders with expensive shipping costs. I'll comment on your points below.

My observations are not made to offend you, so not necessary to defend :). I just wanted to help, since my CB450 K0 was original to the last bolt, I prefer to spread the knowledge in these kind of threads how these bike looked like when they came out of the factory. Most observations are made about the finish of parts (paint / polished / glossy / shine etc). The finish is your choice and don't cost a lot of extra money, just another way of doing things. I do understand that you take shortcuts on hard to get parts like the coils, as I'm not expecting to see a perfect restored CB450 K0 on this forum since it's very costly, but the right finish is easier to accomplish.

Even "perfect" original CB450K0's or restorations sold on Ebay are (almost) never perfect, I always find a glitch, wrong part, wrong mounted part etc. Since I'm building an early CB72'61 (10+ years project) out of an incomplete pile of parts, I learned to observe pictures, photos, drawings and bikes. Once I travelled to southern California to a meet guy (among other visits) that had a perfect, untouched CB72'61, just for studying the details. My CB450 K0 isn't perfect either, however, the one I'm building right now (not a rider) will be close to that. I just have to look to my rider to know how it should be done, so easy to say for me.
 
My observations are not made to offend you, so not necessary to defend :). I just wanted to help, since my CB450 K0 was original to the last bolt, I prefer to spread the knowledge in these kind of threads how these bike looked like when they came out of the factory. Most observations are made about the finish of parts (paint / polished / glossy / shine etc). The finish is your choice and don't cost a lot of extra money, just another way of doing things. I do understand that you take shortcuts on hard to get parts like the coils, as I'm not expecting to see a perfect restored CB450 K0 on this forum since it's very costly, but the right finish is easier to accomplish.

Even "perfect" original CB450K0's or restorations sold on Ebay are (almost) never perfect, I always find a glitch, wrong part, wrong mounted part etc. Since I'm building an early CB72'61 (10+ years project) out of an incomplete pile of parts, I learned to observe pictures, photos, drawings and bikes. Once I travelled to southern California to a meet guy (among other visits) that had a perfect, untouched CB72'61, just for studying the details. My CB450 K0 isn't perfect either, however, the one I'm building right now (not a rider) will be close to that. I just have to look to my rider to know how it should be done, so easy to say for me.

And I'm not in the least bit offended and I understand your intentions completely. As you say "perfect" restorations are seldom perfect so it can be very difficult to know just what is "correct" by looking at photos. There are lots of variants. Your help is sincerely appreciated.
 
That is a muffler to pipe sealing gasket, a sleeve that fits between the 2 parts. It's also a one year part.
You may be able to substitute it with a similar one for another model. I know that the CM400 series uses 2 different sizes, #13 and #14 in this fiche.
https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/motorcycle/1979/cm400t-a/muffler


Thanks for the help guys. The OD of my headers is 43 mm, the ID of my mufflers is 44 mm. Doesn't leave very much room in between for a gasket. Makes me wonder if these 2 parts are meant for one another or is the gasket only 0.5mm thick?
 
As you noted in post 147 you bought reproduction mufflers for DSS, so they are probably not exactly identical to the originals in size of that opening if you have 1 mm max to fill there are a couple of options.
Canadian Tire sells this muffler tape which is very thin yet has a peel and stick side. You could wrap the pipes to take up the 1 mm and use the clamp to snug everything up. Since this is a high temp tape it will withstand the exhaust gasses. The second option is probably #2 with a high temp red silicone you can again fill the gap and seal the space. I am not 100% sure of the temp rating on this stuff, so you would want at least 400-500F for it to last.
 
Thanks Flyin900...was in the city today and stopped by to see the guys who rebuilt my engine...they made the same suggestion.

Also stopped to see my "Honda Parts Yoda." He's 75 and was working in Honda dealerships as a parts guy before I was even born. He has literal mountains of parts. Set me up with an NOS tail light lens, fuel cap and mirrors. We also discussed my next project bike(s) but I don't want to jinx anything so I'll keep that to myself for now.
 
Time to buy a battery for this bike!

I see lots of guys here recommending Motobatt. Doesn't seem to be easily available here in Canada at a reasonable price. I've seen sites that will ship them but I think they're coming across the border at a pretty high cost.

Does anybody here use a Lithium Ion Battery in their 450 and if so which one? Ancientdad, I think I recall seeing you mention somewhere that you were? I have an Antigravity ATZ-7 unused in my garage that might be a bit on the small side (150 cranking amps, 7AH) but would probably work. I bought it for a CB400 project that is sitting in the back corner of the garage waiting for me. The CB400 and the CB450 call for the same OE battery.

Alternatively, this is what comes up on Amazon. Never heard of them before but the price is attractive or I can head down to NAPA and they've always been good about finding me brand name batteries at a reasonable rate.

https://www.amazon.ca/Mighty-Max-Ba...876008&sprefix=yb12a-a+battery,aps,171&sr=8-9

If I were to buy a new larger capacity Lithium Ion I would expect I'll be in the cdn$250 range.

Anyhow, this isn't one of those "what fits?" questions. I know of some options, just curious if anybody is using Lithium Ion vs AGM. I have a bad habit of not always turning my ignition off and like the "restart" feature of the Antigravity although with the Black Bomber that shouldn't pose a problem as it needs to be turned off with the key.
 
Thanks, good to know. I can have that here in one day for cdn$89.00

I know you'll like it. The oldest one (gel) around here is in a CB350 (same size) and it's past 3 years and has never really needed charging. Holds at 12.5-12.6 volts even after sitting a month in the cold. In general for most batteries, I don't trust or use tenders, just once a month check voltage and give low trickle for an hour. If it doesn't hold you probably got a 'leaky' rectifier.
 
Ancientdad, I think I recall seeing you mention somewhere that you were? I have an Antigravity ATZ-7 unused in my garage that might be a bit on the small side (150 cranking amps, 7AH) but would probably work.

My 450 is electric start delete and I'm running an MMG 4ah lithium ion battery bought from Amazon 6 years ago and it's still working just fine. That 7ah battery you have woulds work even with electric start as long as the bike was in proper tune and started quickly as it should so you wouldn't have to use the starter too much. The 150 cranking amps is adequate, just the capacity would be less than the stock 12ah battery for extra starter use. Just don't run them down too far, they don't like it and are hard to recover if run dead.
 
As long as you run the standard electronics (points, rectifier), I would use this : Yuasa YB12A, a high quality standard lead battery.
If you added a voltage regulator, then more modern battery's are fine.

The delivered output of the dynamo can be pretty high, up to 17-18 volts, a lead-acid battery can stand these voltages, modern battery's will break down.
I used a Motobatt battery on my CB450 K0 because everyone seems happy with it, but it cannot withstand the higher voltages, it broke down within 2 months, and took the rectifier, headlight and tail light down with it. These batteries are way too sensitive. now back to a Yuasa lead-acid battery, for another 5 years without issue's.

As I like my bikes original, my CB400F also has the standard combo, thus a trustworthy lead-acid battery.
 
Yes, I neglected to mention that a modern rec/reg combo unit would be required if a lithium ion or AGM battery was the choice.
 
Not to be contrary, but my 71 CL350 is running its original charging system, including the original regulator and selenium rectifier. I installed an absorbed glass matt MB12U, 15AH battery from Motobatt on 4-25-2017, and the bike has run 5,988 miles since then. It has never seen a Battery Tender. I use the electric starter almost exclusively. I check the battery condition and the effectiveness of the charging system by seeing if the bike will start. So far, I guess I have been lucky?
 
Not to be contrary, but my 71 CL350 is running its original charging system, including the original regulator and selenium rectifier. I installed an absorbed glass matt MB12U, 15AH battery from Motobatt on 4-25-2017, and the bike has run 5,988 miles since then. It has never seen a Battery Tender. I use the electric starter almost exclusively. I check the battery condition and the effectiveness of the charging system by seeing if the bike will start. So far, I guess I have been lucky?

I suspect there is a fair amount of variance between rectifiers and regulators over the years of aging that probably accounts for that. I don't think that original system was overly exact with respect to voltage limits and yours is an outlier on max voltage level. I clearly remember having to check the electrolyte level in my batteries during high school when owning/riding my twins. Never thought to check the voltage they were running because they all started normally and ran beautifully, but I'd bet they were running around 15v even then with all new parts as those bikes were never with me a full year each before moving on to the next one.
 
As long as you run the standard electronics (points, rectifier), I would use this : Yuasa YB12A, a high quality standard lead battery.
If you added a voltage regulator, then more modern battery's are fine.

The delivered output of the dynamo can be pretty high, up to 17-18 volts, a lead-acid battery can stand these voltages, modern battery's will break down.
I used a Motobatt battery on my CB450 K0 because everyone seems happy with it, but it cannot withstand the higher voltages, it broke down within 2 months, and took the rectifier, headlight and tail light down with it. These batteries are way too sensitive. now back to a Yuasa lead-acid battery, for another 5 years without issue's.

As I like my bikes original, my CB400F also has the standard combo, thus a trustworthy lead-acid battery.

I must concede that Jensen is correct for sustained high rpm hooligan activities. Not saying that Jensen is a hooligan but he might be on occasion, he certainly racks up the kilometers pell mell. Anyway, the standard wet cell batteries can out gas and handle overcharging better than sealed AGM and probably gels too. Other things can affect the situation like ditching all the incandescent bulbs for LED and some of our bikes never had voltage regulation other than the battery itself.
I've never cooked one though.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

fxray I don't find that contrary at all, I was hoping for opinions based on others experience. I don't know your model but as the OE for my bike didn't include a voltage regulator then AD and Jensen would be correct however I have upgraded to a modern R/R combo from Sparck Moto so I'm good to use whatever I decide on. I know the purists are cringing right now!

I do know that my starter motor is a bit tired so I'll have to see if the little lithium ion is up to the task. I like the size and weight of the technology but then of course I need to improvise a fit for the much larger battery box on the frame. Decision, decisions.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

fxray I don't find that contrary at all, I was hoping for opinions based on others experience. I don't know your model but as the OE for my bike didn't include a voltage regulator then AD and Jensen would be correct however I have upgraded to a modern R/R combo from Sparck Moto so I'm good to use whatever I decide on. I know the purists are cringing right now!

I do know that my starter motor is a bit tired so I'll have to see if the little lithium ion is up to the task. I like the size and weight of the technology but then of course I need to improvise a fit for the much larger battery box on the frame. Decision, decisions.

No cringing here, good move with the R/R. It's about cost effectiveness for me. Expensive batteries (odd ball OEM or latest and greatest) or expensive original sealed beams costing a King's ransom are off the table for me. Very sensible.
 
No cringing here, good move with the R/R. It's about cost effectiveness for me. Expensive batteries (odd ball OEM or latest and greatest) or expensive original sealed beams costing a King's ransom are off the table for me. Very sensible.

Absolutely agree - I like to utilize Honda's intelligence and usually excellent (for the day) engineering, but times and technologies change and when you can apply those new smarts to something old like our bikes to achieve a more desired result, you'd be foolish to be stubborn about some aspects of originality.
 
Why is this so easy accepted when it's about electrics, but so hard to accept this when it comes to use the most modern oil in these bikes ?
 
Why is this so easy accepted when it's about electrics, but so hard to accept this when it comes to use the most modern oil in these bikes ?

Not sure. Cost? Convenience? I'm guilty but will listen to the guy who puts his new engine builds on oil dialysis prior to first start up. :)
 
Jensen, I see you're around today! Last week you mentioned something about the routing of the starter cable. Wonder if you could tell you me the correct routing of it please?

Much gratitude.
 
Thanks Jensen, I'll crawl around on the floor tomorrow and check it out.

Ok, I couldn't wait...had to check it out tonight. I found the tight passage between the enginge and the frame and with a bit of lubrication I was able to pass this 6 gauge cable through. Used red so it would show up in the photos but I also have a length of it in black.

The specs are here https://www.windynation.com/Welding...PER-WIRE-BATTERY-SOLAR-LEADS/-/645?p=YzE9MjM=

IMG_1812.jpg IMG_1813.jpg IMG_1814.jpg IMG_1815.jpg IMG_1816.jpg

Does this route look correct?
The one thing I'm not certain of is the operating temperature. (105c/220f)

Unless there is a good reason not to use this cable I will route the cable through the passages and then install (solder) the terminals with the cable in place.
 
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Yes, the route is ok, however, the color is no, this way it draws too much attention for me.

The original wire has a tube, and normally the terminals are in place. This is the reason you have to do it before fixating the engine in the frame. If you connect the terminals afterwards, you can manage to route the cable without lifting the engine in the frame.
 
Yes, the route is ok, however, the color is no, this way it draws too much attention for me.

The original wire has a tube, and normally the terminals are in place. This is the reason you have to do it before fixating the engine in the frame. If you connect the terminals afterwards, you can manage to route the cable without lifting the engine in the frame.

As I said, I have a length of that cable in black that I will use. I used red for the photo for visibility, that's all. The finished cable will be black.
 
Can anybody tell me what this brown material is that holds these terminals in place? The reason I ask is that this part is slightly bowed. The outer terminals are a little high and the center terminal won't make contact with the plate on the switch. I've driven myself crazy trying to figure out why the switch wasn't working. I'm open to suggestions for how to remedy this. Will a little heat make it flexible enough for me to straighten it out? It's a solvable problem, just wondering if anybody has been down this path before?

IMG_1837.jpg

While I'm at it, this little guy for the horn button is broken. I'm sure I can make a new one from a piece of plastic. Anybody ever attempt this and like to offer suggestions?
IMG_1838.jpg

I figured this was going to be a simple task over my morning coffee. Hah...was I ever wrong.
 
Can anybody tell me what this brown material is that holds these terminals in place? The reason I ask is that this part is slightly bowed. The outer terminals are a little high and the center terminal won't make contact with the plate on the switch. I've driven myself crazy trying to figure out why the switch wasn't working. I'm open to suggestions for how to remedy this. Will a little heat make it flexible enough for me to straighten it out? It's a solvable problem, just wondering if anybody has been down this path before?

View attachment 19823

While I'm at it, this little guy for the horn button is broken. I'm sure I can make a new one from a piece of plastic. Anybody ever attempt this and like to offer suggestions?
View attachment 19824

I figured this was going to be a simple task over my morning coffee. Hah...was I ever wrong.

I believe it's called phenolic material. I had the same piece on the starter button break and I fabricated one from a piece of a circuit board. You can get a small piece of circuit board from any electronics store.

As for the other piece, what about building up the center contact with some solder.
 
Getting down to some of the little details that I've been putting off.

1) Side cover latches...on another site, 66 Sprint offered the following advice.

"Buy a battery box latch for a Honda S-65 (Honda # 83650-035-000) for about three Euro (and currently available) and chuck it in a drill motor....
Using a small mill file, cut the recessed area at the correct lengths, then cut it to overall correct length, and thread the tip with a standard metric die......."


I bought the battery box latches that he suggested, now wondering if anybody can tell me the correct dimensions of the screw portion of the part please so I can cut to length and get the threads and the recess in the right place?

2) Seat latch, spring and nut. The Stay (#12) that attaches to the seat is available, as is the Latch itself (#6) I haven't been able to find the Spring (#7) or the Seat, spring (#8, and not to be confused with the actual seat) If there is just a nut and a spring it seems like something that I might be able to fashion myself but I haven't been able to find a good picture of this assembly, nor a description of how it operates. Can anybody help with pictures, description or solutions that they may know of?

https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partsl...air-cleaner-case-seat_bigma000064f06_6d7c.gif

Cheers
 
2) Seat latch, spring and nut. The Stay (#12) that attaches to the seat is available, as is the Latch itself (#6) I haven't been able to find the Spring (#7) or the Seat, spring (#8, and not to be confused with the actual seat) If there is just a nut and a spring it seems like something that I might be able to fashion myself but I haven't been able to find a good picture of this assembly, nor a description of how it operates. Can anybody help with pictures, description or solutions that they may know of?

https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partsl...air-cleaner-case-seat_bigma000064f06_6d7c.gif

Cheers

Curious about this too. I found all but #8. I gathered from elsewhere on the internet a nut can be used. But I haven’t actually put any of this together to see.


‘69 CB350
‘68 CB450K0
 
Getting down to some of the little details that I've been putting off.

1) Side cover latches...on another site, 66 Sprint offered the following advice.

"Buy a battery box latch for a Honda S-65 (Honda # 83650-035-000) for about three Euro (and currently available) and chuck it in a drill motor....
Using a small mill file, cut the recessed area at the correct lengths, then cut it to overall correct length, and thread the tip with a standard metric die......."


I bought the battery box latches that he suggested, now wondering if anybody can tell me the correct dimensions of the screw portion of the part please so I can cut to length and get the threads and the recess in the right place?

2) Seat latch, spring and nut. The Stay (#12) that attaches to the seat is available, as is the Latch itself (#6) I haven't been able to find the Spring (#7) or the Seat, spring (#8, and not to be confused with the actual seat) If there is just a nut and a spring it seems like something that I might be able to fashion myself but I haven't been able to find a good picture of this assembly, nor a description of how it operates. Can anybody help with pictures, description or solutions that they may know of?

https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partsl...air-cleaner-case-seat_bigma000064f06_6d7c.gif

Cheers
Send a PM to 66Sprint, if anyone has the answer Steve does.
 
This is so obvious but I want to be sure....

Purchased a replacement condenser from 4into1. https://4into1.com/reproduction-condensers-honda-cb-cl350-360-450-500-twins-gl1000/

The original has 1 green wire, 1 yellow wire to connect with corresponding points & coil. The replacement has 2 black wires. Obviously there is no way to distinguish one from the other. My grasp of the ignition system is still in it's infancy (yes, I'm keen to learn and understand more) but I don't think it matters which wire goes to right and which goes to left.

Just don't want to damage anything by making a stupid mistake and then you guys say "you should've asked us first"
 
Send a PM to 66Sprint, if anyone has the answer Steve does.


I've sent a message to 66Sprint but no reply yet. I've noticed he hasn't been around here much lately. Hope all is well!? In the meantime if anybody can shed light on these questions I'm grateful. The dimensions for the side cover latches I will be able to sort out once my side covers are back from the paint shop but if anybody post a photo and explanation of how the seat latch works so I can try to come up with an improvisation that would be amazing.
 
This is so obvious but I want to be sure....

Purchased a replacement condenser from 4into1. https://4into1.com/reproduction-condensers-honda-cb-cl350-360-450-500-twins-gl1000/

The original has 1 green wire, 1 yellow wire to connect with corresponding points & coil. The replacement has 2 black wires. Obviously there is no way to distinguish one from the other. My grasp of the ignition system is still in it's infancy (yes, I'm keen to learn and understand more) but I don't think it matters which wire goes to right and which goes to left.

Just don't want to damage anything by making a stupid mistake and then you guys say "you should've asked us first"

Each of the 2 condensers are the same so it doesn't matter which condenser is connected to which set of points/coil. Honda only color-coded them because all the other wiring is color-coded, so things would match and have color continuity.
 
Each of the 2 condensers are the same so it doesn't matter which condenser is connected to which set of points/coil. Honda only color-coded them because all the other wiring is color-coded, so things would match and have color continuity.


Thanks Tom, exactly as I assumed.
 
I got the tank back from the painter. Very pleased!
IMG_0155.jpg 69767968059__7CF48523-B530-4176-9A9C-B477F075D7D8.jpg

Also a couple of mysteries today.
IMG_1921.jpg

#1 Can anybody tell me where these little beauties go? They were in a bag with little odds and from the headlight / horn / controls / switches area of the bike. I hate myself when I know that a piece of tape and a sharpie 18 months ago would have been a good idea.

#2 Where did I put my M5 tap? Teebo, did you borrow it?
 
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I got the tank back from the painter. Very pleased!
View attachment 20237View attachment 20236

Also a couple of mysteries today.
View attachment 20235

#1 Can anybody tell me where these little beauties go? They were in a bag with little odds and from the headlight / horn / controls / switches area of the bike. I hate myself when I know that a piece of tape and a sharpie 18 months ago would have been a good idea.

#2 Where did I put my M5 tap? Teebo, did you borrow it?

Looks great!

Sorry, the M5 tap is on my workbench.


‘69 CB350
‘68 CB450K0
 
The tank looks really good. I'm guessing Chris might know where those round-headed screws go, they seem familiar to me but I just can't recall where I might have seen them.
 
I think you might be right, seems familiar.

I agree. When you get a bike that's been left in a garage or barn you get whatever hasn't already been lost, taken, given away or misplaced. Mysterious parts are missing and present. I have spent an hour or more rooting around in people's garages looking for bits and pieces, and found quite a bit over the years. And I have odds and ends of old bike parts from projects years ago. A threaded piece like this, with a decorative top, could easily have served as a seat strap bolt.
 
Took a picture last night, seat strap CB450 K0, original seat that came with the bike. It's a flat bold with a washer underneath it. It has the longer nut also.

e9a2676d-ab47-418c-bd9a-86493c237dde.jpg
 
Thanks Jensen, Certainly bears a resemblance to what I'm looking at. If that's it the mystery is even more interesting because I can't imagine a scenario where they came home with the bike. It was sitting outside in a wrecking yard without a seat and no stash of spare parts or odds and ends.
 
Also a couple of mysteries today.
View attachment 20235

#1 Can anybody tell me where these little beauties go? They were in a bag with little odds and from the headlight / horn / controls / switches area of the bike. I hate myself when I know that a piece of tape and a sharpie 18 months ago would have been a good idea.

I think I may be able to solve this one.
Exhibit A: The small screws inside the cover of the Elephant horn that attach the horn to its bracket
B7D836B3-F6C0-4CD1-A33A-AEFE4DE8EE52.jpg

The aforementioned seat strap bolts are a good guess, but those do not appear to be the same. Here are the bolts associated with the seat strap.
C4F51700-CB7E-4B23-AF9E-45E4B3358FEE.jpg
 
I think I may be able to solve this one.
Exhibit A: The small screws inside the cover of the Elephant horn that attach the horn to its bracket
View attachment 20302

The aforementioned seat strap bolts are a good guess, but those do not appear to be the same. Here are the bolts associated with the seat strap.
View attachment 20303

Awesome, Thanks Chris. That makes so much sense. I poured over the parts manual but couldn't find a match. Of course the horn is sold as a complete unit so those screws don't show up. I've abandoned my original horn for now and bought a replacement. (I'll save the purists a little time now and let you know that I realize it isn't the correct horn but it will have to do for the time being until I come across the right one. No need to point it out when I throw some pictures up.)
 
I'm so close! Just install the controls and a few other minor things and it'll be ready for first start...

"Wait, what is this, another problem!?!? *&##@$%"

Chain on, chain guard on, clutch cable installed...time to install the shift lever. I've never studied it before, it was already off the bike when it came to me. The splines on the outside of the shaft are in great shape. The spline on the inside of the lever are there but pretty rounded.
IMG_1972.jpg

The shifter will go onto the shaft and the splines actually engage with the splines on the shaft but it's not a very positive fit. Even tightening the bolt as much as possible there is still lots of play and I'm not really very comfortable with that. If you happened to see my post yesterday about megazip.net you will understand that replacement shifters aren't easy to find (anybody got a spare)

In the meantime, does anybody have any tips for me? It seems like a shim of some sort, perhaps wrapping the shaft to make up the space might help. I've seen where people have drilled and inserted roll pins, both parallel and perpendicular to the shaft but that seems like a permanent modification to the shaft to solve a temporary problem while I search for a new shift lever. Any creative solutions?
 
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