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1972 CB450 K5 Hot Mess

Thanks I appreciate the feedback on that and I would love to get one of Jay’s oil pumps, but at this point with the money I have invested in this project I’m going to hold although I may do it later if it all works out well.
Post some pics of your pump bore and piston so we can see how it looks. It's probably fine, but it can't hurt to put more eyes on it.
 
Posting some pics of the oil pump and the clutch pack I am planning on using. The oil pump is out of the 71 CL donor as are the clutch center and outer and the cylinder seemed to have less wear then the other one. The clutch and friction disks are from the 72 CB they seemed in better shape with less wear. The reason there are no springs in the picture is that I measured both sets and they all were at or outside the specs in the FSM free length measurement so need to order a set. If anyone notices any problems or there are areas I should pay special attention to let me know. Thanks


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Oil pump body and piston look good, typical wear marks and nothing I can see that would keep it from full output (such as they are). You might want to file the sides of the clutch basket "fingers" where you can see wear marks on them from the plates rubbing as they engage and disengage, if they have much depth they can affect the smoothness of the clutch movement. Scuff the steel plates clean and they'll be fine unless you can detect one or more of them are warped, doesn't look like it. Frictions need to be measured for thickness but they typically look good.
 
Thank you for taking a look and it is reassuring to get another set of eyes on the parts. I will take a look at the fingers on the clutch basket. That is something I wouldn’t have have thought to check. I did measure the friction disks and they almost appear to be new as far as thickness goes. Makes me wonder if the P.O. had replaced them before the bike got laid up.
 
They typically don't wear a lot unless someone really overdoes slipping the clutch, and then you'll often see darkened or blued steel plates along with it. Put new stock springs in it (don't go stiffer or your clutch lever will be at least 25% harder to pull) and ride it. Unless you plan to do holeshots or powershifts you won't likely ever feel it slip.
 
Honestly I was never really one for a lot of hotdogging after I sold my Kawasaki 400 triple so I expect my problem will be not riding the bike hard enough.
 
Thanks to @LongDistanceRider and @ancientdad for pointing out the wear on the sides of the clutch basket fingers. It was not bad but deep enough I can see how it would catch the friction disk tabs and keep them from disengaging and engaging smoothly. Lightly filed them with a medium flat file and then dressed up with some 180 grit sandpaper. Ordered the clutch springs from DSS along with a couple of other things I will need down the road to get the most out of their flat shipping rate. THe rain from Debby is slacked off for the moment and at least it is much cooler so not bad in the garage. I think I will get an adult beverage and go do a closer inspection of the starter clutch and rotor and clean them up now.
 
The rotor and starter clutch from the 72 CB is badly damaged with all the rotor ears chewed off and the clutch housing has some damage as well so using the the rotor/starter clutch from the 71 CL and cleaned everything up and inspected. I had ordered new clutch springs previously from DSS so got them out and compared to the old ones. You can see quite a difference in the spring length but the spring caps and bearings looked fine.

With the damage I saw to the rotor tabs on the one I am not using and appears to be from the starter chain, is the starter chain something that typically needs to replaced due to wear or is this damage due to someone removing the starter and then kick starting the bike? Both chains I have appear to be exactly the same length at least just measuring by eye. Also if it does need to be replaced could you use a cam chain and cut it down which appears to be cheaper, they both show as DK219 DAIDO chains .IMG_4554.JPG
 
but the spring caps and bearings looked fine.
Check the caps very closely at the narrower top where the end of the springs sits inside, they tend to crack around that perimeter. I typically replace all 3 parts when in there, though if the rollers are smooth they should be okay.
With the damage I saw to the rotor tabs on the one I am not using and appears to be from the starter chain, is the starter chain something that typically needs to replaced due to wear or is this damage due to someone removing the starter and then kick starting the bike? Both chains I have appear to be exactly the same length at least just measuring by eye. Also if it does need to be replaced could you use a cam chain and cut it down which appears to be cheaper, they both show as DK219 DAIDO chains .
Yes, you could cut a 219T cam chain down to fit, but honestly I've never seen a broken starter chain. I'm sure it's fine, think of how little it actually gets used over the course of all the miles on that engine. Remember it sits still the entire time the engine is running after being used for a few seconds at startup.
 
Check the caps very closely at the narrower top where the end of the springs sits inside, they tend to crack around that perimeter. I typically replace all 3 parts when in there, though if the rollers are smooth they should be okay.
I took another look at the bearings and caps this morning after your warning about the caps and they look 100% with no evidence of any wear on the tip or cracking where the small end meets the larger area and the hole in the tip was clear. The bearings are used but they too are in excellent condition with no pitting or wear patterns. All the items I ordered from DSS were in the warehouse here in the US so my order was mailed this morning so I should get it early next week. Anything that has to come from the UK warehouse adds an extra week to shipping so patience is required.
 
Question for the team. The 45mm internal circlip I have for the oil filter is badly worn upper and lower and on both sides and I am wondering if this wear is normal see pic below. It is quite thin in the worn areas. I checked the clip from the donor engine and it is worn as well. Does the snap ring act as thrust washer?

Anyway I need a replacement, P/N 90604-292-000 and I have found some on ebay but they are quite proud of them so I am wondering if I can just use a generic 45mm internal clip or is there something special about this particular one. I can order 10 from Amazon for $6.50 or from Honda $1.53 each.

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There shouldn't be any thrust pressure on that circlip, it's only to hold the oil filter cover in place. I've seen them look like that often and as long as they fit the groove properly and still have the tension required to stay in place it should be usable.
 
Question for the team. The 45mm internal circlip I have for the oil filter is badly worn upper and lower and on both sides and I am wondering if this wear is normal see pic below. It is quite thin in the worn areas. I checked the clip from the donor engine and it is worn as well. Does the snap ring act as thrust washer?

Anyway I need a replacement, P/N 90604-292-000 and I have found some on ebay but they are quite proud of them so I am wondering if I can just use a generic 45mm internal clip or is there something special about this particular one. I can order 10 from Amazon for $6.50 or from Honda $1.53 each.
The stainless ones from amazon are thicker 1.5mm not 0.8-9mm OEM so I had to grind down on an upside down beltsander for my 350, both 45mm.
Honda for $1.53? I thought they were NLA.
 
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The stainless ones from amazon are thicker 1.5mm not 0.8-9mm OEM so I had to grind down on an upside down beltsander for my 350, both 45mm.
Honda for $1.53? I thought they were NLA.
Thanks for the confirmation that there is a difference in the ones from Amazon. The Honda ones I found are a different part number, 94520-45000 and may be thicker as well. I saw that price online through Honda Parts Now but they want 11.00 for shipping 2 of them and they might not work. We are running errands today and I am going to stop by the Honda Car Dealer and see if they have them in stock and what the price is. They are for the clutches on some Honda Civics I believe.
 
Thanks for the confirmation that there is a difference in the ones from Amazon. The Honda ones I found are a different part number, 94520-45000 and may be thicker as well. I saw that price online through Honda Parts Now but they want 11.00 for shipping 2 of them and they might not work. We are running errands today and I am going to stop by the Honda Car Dealer and see if they have them in stock and what the price is. They are for the clutches on some Honda Civics I believe.
There are a ton of NLA or seriously marked up motorcycle part numbers that have identical matches on Honda Civic/Accord manual transmissions from the late 90’s-mid 2010’s that are readily available and cheap.
The issue sometimes is that the Honda dealer parts system software will require a vin, so google one before you go.
 
Just a for what its worth I measured the worn circlip with my trusty caliper at an unworn portion at one of the tips and got 0.033 thousandths of an inch or a little over 0.8 mm as @ballbearian said and then measured a worn area along the outer edge and got 0.022 thousandths or about 0.56 mm which is quite a bit of wear. After thinking about it the wear has to come from abrasive particles in the oil the rotor is swirling around. I broke down and ordered a NOS circlip from E-Bay and also ordered a couple of the other part number from the Honda dealer so I can measure the difference and check the fit.
 
Just a for what its worth I measured the worn circlip with my trusty caliper at an unworn portion at one of the tips and got 0.033 thousandths of an inch or a little over 0.8 mm as @ballbearian said and then measured a worn area along the outer edge and got 0.022 thousandths or about 0.56 mm which is quite a bit of wear. After thinking about it the wear has to come from abrasive particles in the oil the rotor is swirling around. I broke down and ordered a NOS circlip from E-Bay and also ordered a couple of the other part number from the Honda dealer so I can measure the difference and check the fit.
You're overworrying and overthinking it, but it's okay. That circlip would never get out of that groove on its own regardless the excess clearance. Plus, there's constant light spring pressure on the oil filter cover from the valve in the filter access cover on the outside of the clutch cover. In decades of working on these things I've never seen an oil filter cover circlip come out of the groove without extenuating circumstances (cracked oil filter cup outer edge, one end of the circlip broken off by a ham-fisted PO)
 
I do tend to let things like that get in my head more then they should. Hopefully that tendency will help me catch the things that really count. :rolleyes:
 
I do tend to let things like that get in my head more then they should. Hopefully that tendency will help me catch the things that really count. :rolleyes:
It's always better to be overprotective than underprotective. If your head doesn't explode, of course.

That's what a beer or two is for.
 
The OEM ones are kinda thin and so easy to see Mongo prying out them with a screwdriver would bust an end off. I've made one from the amazon stainless batch and will need another, I'm sure.
I will be curious to see if the other part number ones will fit.
Maybe Mongo gets a kickback from the parts scalpers.
 
Some progress today with another day of cooler weather getting the oil pump, oil filter rotor and clutch put back together. I think the next step will be to tear down the starter that @stl360+450 graciously sent me and clean it up and see if I need to get brushes or any other parts or will a good clean and lube do the job. Once the starter is done then I reassemble the alternator side.

In answer to @ballbearian's question if the Honda 45mm circlip part number 94520-45000 will fit or not the answer is no. It is too thick (0.070 thousandths) and would need to sanded down quite a bit 10 or 20 thousandths at least. The NOS clip also came in I installed it and the only other thing I will mention is the old clip would spin in the groove where the new clip locks in the groove and does not spin.

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Not to beat the horse, but the circlip in my oil filter cup will spin too, just not loosely. But if you put the tip of a punch or cotter pin remover in it it's easy to move. It's crazy and yet essentially required because of the design that they use a clip of that size and thickness for such a simple job, but that's also why it is fine with old used ones too.

That is one oil-stained pressure plate.
 
Yes it is and I did start to try cleaning it up better and I thought "WHY" and I was actually able to beat my OCD impulses and just make sure it was clean.
LOL, well then I commend you sir! It might clean up more in the long term with our detergent oils but if that's the dirtiest thing in your engine, then whatever. We've seen so much worse in 'running condition'.
 
Disassembled the starter today and it was very clean and in very good shape so I am sure I could have just used it as is but now of course I have old O Rings that have fallen apart and gaskets that need replaced. It looks like it was partially disassembled at some point in the "recent" past cleaned and new brushes put in and doesn't appear to have had many miles put on it. One thing that wasn't done is lube the bearing in the nose housing as it was nearly dry and the planetary gears could have been better lubed but didn't appear to be worn. The bushings appear to be in decent shape but I really can't get a good measurement of the one in the rear housing without removing it. The CMC kit is only $65 and looks to comes with everything I would need to rebuild the starter including the bushings so I believe I will go that route unless someone has had a bad experience with their kit. Dropping a few pics and as always I welcome comments and observations.

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OK just tried to add the CMC starter kit to the cart to check on shipping and the kit is not available. Going to check 4 into 1 and see if their kit is available.
 
Just reading a interesting thread "1962 Honda C-100 Chrome Promotional Cub 50 $5,000, ya learn something every day!" and saw where @ancientdad mentioned one of his previous places of employment and finally the synapses clicked on things he has mentioned in other posts. Small world. The rear fender is probably beyond repair so I will cut out this piece of memorabilia.

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Just reading a interesting thread "1962 Honda C-100 Chrome Promotional Cub 50 $5,000, ya learn something every day!" and saw where @ancientdad mentioned one of his previous places of employment and finally the synapses clicked on things he has mentioned in other posts. Small world. The rear fender is probably beyond repair so I will cut out this piece of memorabilia.
WOW. I can't believe there are any of these still around. And it had to be from probably their second year (1971) on, because I wasn't putting dealership stickers on any of the new bikes I assembled when I worked there in their first year of existence at age 15.

Small world indeed. Very cool Rob.
 
Obviously my subconscious knew I need more practice on oil pump and clutch installs otherwise I would installed the shift spindle the first time. I felt really dumb when I turned the engine around to get to the alternator side and didn't see the spindle sticking out. As Homer says "Doh". Disassembled the pump and clutch pack expecting the oil pump lock washer tabs tabs to break but they held up , installed the spindle, played with shifting a bit and realized I didn't order a new circlip for the spindle like I had intended so started making up a new parts list and just used the old one temporarily. Reinstalled the oil pump, filter and clutch pack with no other difficulty that I am aware of at an rate. Started looking for the circlip and found at DSS for $1.11 so ordered 2 just in case I lost one. With their standard $10.00 shipping up to $70.00 I looked for more stuff. I saw that the oil filter locking tab washer was only 88 cents each so ordered a couple of them as well just because. Ordered new screws for the neutral switch, new O Rings for the oil drain plug and the dip stick. Finished up the order with new OEM fork boots for the S90 because I noticed that the aftermarket ones I got are already splitting and they are only a couple of years old with probably a little over 100 miles. Another winter project. I also ordered a new shift lever and front sproket from CMC and found a NOS 35 tooth rear sprocket with the fixing bolts on E-Bay for $30.00 but with $20.00 shipping so not the bargain of the year but not bad compared to other prices I saw. With the starter rebuild kit coming in from 4 into 1 I feel like I am doing my part stimilating the economy.

Looks better with the spindle arm peeking out behind the clutch pack. :)

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That circlip is available at any local Honda dealership. It’s also a part of a 1997 civic with a manual transmission. 12mm circlip, I think it’s the exact same part number too. It’s like $.25 at dealership or $5 online - good ol motorcycle markup.
 
That circlip is available at any local Honda dealership. It’s also a part of a 1997 civic with a manual transmission. 12mm circlip, I think it’s the exact same part number too. It’s like $.25 at dealership or $5 online - good ol motorcycle markup.
Good to know, I saw it on ebay for $10.00 and up so the buck from DSS didn't seem too bad and I was surprised to see the filter lock tab for less than a buck. We do have a Honda car dealership in my town but the closest Honda Motorsports dealer is about a 45 minutes drive and they deal in several different brands.
 
Good to know, I saw it on ebay for $10.00 and up so the buck from DSS didn't seem too bad and I was surprised to see the filter lock tab for less than a buck. We do have a Honda car dealership in my town but the closest Honda Motorsports dealer is about a 45 minutes drive and they deal in several different brands.
Yeah. The car dealerships have a ton of the hardware. Clips, bolts, screws etc. Honda apparently was smart and used a bunch of stuff they already had on hand. Usually 1/4 the price of the “MC” part, but same part numbers. I’ve found the weird ball for the clutch lever, springs, flange bolts, spring clips on many of my rabbit hole adventures.
 
@ancientdad commented on this as well in post #425 and like I told him the pressure plate is stained but clean and after working on it a bit decided it was not worth the effort to make it sparkle. We will see how well the detergent in the oil handles the next time I have to pull the cover. :)
 
Well, it's up to you, but my engines are clean as possible when being build up. I would not hesitate to beat blast the entire pressure plate until spotless.
 
Working on the rebuilding the starter which like I said was not really in bad shape when I tore it apart to inspect it but decided to order a rebuild kit so I could have all the new consumables. I ordered the kit from 4 into 1 and what I received was the kit from Arrowhead Powersports P/N 414-54019 or P/N SMU9136. The kit is supposed to be for 350, 360 and 450 starters so there will be extra parts depending on what starter you are working on. Anyway it comes in a shrink wrapped package with no part number list and after opening and comparing parts saw the seal that is for the 450 starter is a 18x32 and the seal that came out of the starter is a 17x32. The FSM does not show the seal so my question is do we have an illustrated parts breakdown for the starter that shows the correct seal or does anyone know which is correct part number. The new one might work but is quite a bit looser on the shaft. Thanks.


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Ran into another issue with the kit. Removed both the old brass bushings by applying heat with a heat gun even though they really didn't seem to be that worn. Reheated the backing plate and end cap and installed the new bushings. Everything seemed to be OK so let the parts cool down but when I checked the backing plate bushing just to make sure it was down all the way it practically fell out of the backing plate. Tried the old bushing and it would definitely require heat to be pressed back in. Very disappointed in the kit.

Pushed new bushing out with light finger pressure and it will spin in the backing plate.
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Answered my own question about the seal after I thought to look at the starter that came off the bike that I had disassembled previously and was beyond repair. Got the seal out of the nose housing and it is also a 17X32 so need to get one of those from Honda or a parts store. I am going to reach out to 4 into 1 and see what they can do if anything. Putting stuff up now and going to heat up the grill and do some wings and drink a beer.
 
Answered my own question about the seal after I thought to look at the starter that came off the bike that I had disassembled previously and was beyond repair. Got the seal out of the nose housing and it is also a 17X32 so need to get one of those from Honda or a parts store. I am going to reach out to 4 into 1 and see what they can do if anything. Putting stuff up now and going to heat up the grill and do some wings and drink a beer.
There are a lot of things I've never bought from 4into1 and it isn't really surprising that they'd have some stuff that just isn't completely correct, not unlike carb kits. I've never had to rebuild a starter motor so I'd be in a similar spot as you if it came up. Hopefully they'll work with you on it.
 
I don't know if this picture is taken before or after the build, but if it is taken after the build, why not clean every part like the clutch pressure plate ?
A couple days soak in gas will loosen that varnish like stain and a toothbrush will remove it so inspection for hairline cracks can be done.
 
A couple days soak in gas will loosen that varnish like stain and a toothbrush will remove it so inspection for hairline cracks can be done.
In his defense, I'd be shocked if that pressure plate had any cracks or problems, I've never seen one cracked or even damaged.
 
True. I guess I was thinking about the outer anyway. I like Jensen's thinking, clean is good, so why not.
Can't disagree, but some households have strong feelings about the vapors from an open pan of gas soaking a part for a while. Even with my detached garage, my wife notices even the slightest gas smell when she gets into her truck to go somewhere so I manage any fuel transfers from large to smaller cans outside to avoid it. I mean, to me it's part of shop smells, but to her it just stinks.

I got a bit of @RobMan's shop atmosphere when I opened the box he sent me the cut off rear fender in, and I recognized the familiar smell of an active shop immediately. :giggle:
 
I get it. Sometimes gas is the quickest and most effective for certain deposits (think carb varnish).

I do use a lid always, because all my recycled cookware parts pots keep their lids. Only the larger jobs like cases and heads, cylinders, etc. in old refrigerator metal crisper drawers stay outside. I do cover them with an upside down plastic storage tub.

When my shop finally quits stinking, it probably means 've been dead awhile.
 
When my shop finally quits stinking, it probably means I've been dead awhile.

That's when it really starts!

And, even though I'm the one messing around in the garage, I can't stand the stink of gas or spray paint. Or kerosene, that's the worst.
 
Got the last of the parts I need for the starter rebuild yesterday so today finished cleaning and reassembled. I was feeling good about the bench test because @stl360+450 who had donated the starter to my project had done a bench test and it worked so no reason it should not work now with the only changes some cleaning, new parts and lubrication. Got out the jumper cables, popped the hood on the pick-up (Honda Ridgeline of course), connected the cables and touched the last ground and........ there was a spark but no spin. To paraphrase Marvin the Martian, Wheres the spin, there was supposed to be a mighty spin! OK disassemble and look the starter over again, field coils not grounded and look good. Armature looks great but without testing on a growler who can say for sure. Made sure I used all the thrust washers were put back where they came from every thing looks good. Reassembled and tried again same result. Disassembled and then noticed the problem, fresh shiny copper right on a filed coil connection where the back side of the starter commutator would just touch. Apparently when I disassembled the starter the first time I must have bent the small tab out a bit Gently pushed the tab back in place and then coated with clear nail polish courtesy of my lovely wife. Let the polish dry for a bit and then reassembled again and tried the bench test again and yes I had spin. Tried several times and sounds great. I neglected to take any photos of the starter showing the area where I had issues but I took the bad starter (burn out field coils) that came off the bike and took a photo to show the area I had issues with.

Arrows mark the tab area where it had gotten bent up and was touching the edge of the commutator.
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Painted the starter Sunday and have been letting it dry a bit before handling it but took advantage of the beautiful weather in North Carolina today and decided to install the starter, clutch and rotor. Lubed up the starter clutch with a little assembly lube, oiled the chain with some 30 wt oil and lightly sanded the mounting block areas on the starter and engine case to make sure we had a good ground. Installed the neutral safety switch which I had previously disassembled, cleaned, and lightly lubed with dialectic grease. Pieced everything together double checking the FSM and parts manual to make sure I don't miss anything but as always appreciate the extra eyes in case I do miss something. Clean up and consider next steps.

You can see how bent up the penny is at the bottom of the picture from being used as a crank to clutch lock.

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