RobMan
Veteran Member
I have another question, what is the easiest way to remove the valve stem seals without damaging something? Online the replacements appear to be all one piece but I don't want muck anything up. Thanks
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1972 CB450 K5 Hot Mess
- Thread starter RobMan
- Start date
Once you remove the bolt and retainer 'fork' over the seal, you just have to get under the edge of the seal and pry it upwards. They basically "snap" over the end of the valve guide, then the fork keeps them from popping off. Just use something L-shaped that is thin enough to get under the edge of the seal outer diameter. For a lot of little things like this, I use what is often called a "cotter pin puller"
RobMan
Veteran Member
Thanks the reassurance and that is what I assumed but it seemed a little stubborn so I wanted to double check.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Got the seals off using my old S shape cotter pin tool tool as you suggested and started cleaning the head. Stuffed paper towels in the combustion chamber and down the intake and exhaust ports and let it soak with Sea Foam for several days and they are cleaning up nicely. Just starting to try to clean up the exterior so I can start working on the reassembly when I have time. I do have a couple of questions though if I can pick some brains. These are issues for further down the line of the rebuild but the mind wonders when you are cleaning old paint from between cooling fins.
The first is on the cam chain and is there any guidance on measuring the chain to see if is worn beyond its service life i.e. stretched. I could not find anything in the FSM but may have missed it nor online. I would think there would be a minimum - maximum measurement to determine if it needs replacement. I have seen the chatter that one must be sure to get the correct cam chain which is the DID 219T128L I believe.
The 2nd is on a recommendation for oversized pistons when I get the cylinders bored. I am currently looking at David Silver Spares as I have had good luck with them on my S90 and prices are reasonable but wondering if anyone has had any issues with them or other recommendations. Thanks.
The first is on the cam chain and is there any guidance on measuring the chain to see if is worn beyond its service life i.e. stretched. I could not find anything in the FSM but may have missed it nor online. I would think there would be a minimum - maximum measurement to determine if it needs replacement. I have seen the chatter that one must be sure to get the correct cam chain which is the DID 219T128L I believe.
The 2nd is on a recommendation for oversized pistons when I get the cylinders bored. I am currently looking at David Silver Spares as I have had good luck with them on my S90 and prices are reasonable but wondering if anyone has had any issues with them or other recommendations. Thanks.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Others will probably have better advice about the cam chain, but when I replaced mine several years ago, it was tight enough that I had a pretty hard time getting the master link in. I was relatively inexperienced at the time, but I would say if it seems easy to slip a new master link into place that the chain has stretched some and it may be worth replacing. Plus if it's the original chain and there's a lot of miles on the clock, why not replace it for peace of mind. The "original" chain in my bike had more than one master link and that was my sign to replace!
You might look at cmsnl.com for pistons and ring sets to compare prices. They seem to have OEM and at least one non-OEM option. I used Honda +0.5mm pistons with my rebuild and purchased them on eBay.
You might look at cmsnl.com for pistons and ring sets to compare prices. They seem to have OEM and at least one non-OEM option. I used Honda +0.5mm pistons with my rebuild and purchased them on eBay.
Since I saw no mention of how many miles are on the bike in the early part of this thread, combined with some of the sketchy work that seems to have been done on it, I absolutely agree with replacing the cam chain. And the best place to get one is here -
I believe his chains come with a pressed side plate master link, which I personally have never felt comfortable with so I buy DID rivet type master links from 4into1, get a couple in case you have to break the chain again before the engine is finished and in the frame
4into1.com
Honda CB 450K CL 450 Steuerkette D.I.D. 219T128 mit Schloß timimg cam chain | eBay
Honda CB 450 K 1966 - 1975. Honda CB 500 T Twin DOHC 1974 - 1976.
www.ebay.com
I believe his chains come with a pressed side plate master link, which I personally have never felt comfortable with so I buy DID rivet type master links from 4into1, get a couple in case you have to break the chain again before the engine is finished and in the frame
Genuine Honda - D.I.D Cam Chain Master Link - 219T - Rivet Type - CA/CB/CL72/77 CB/CL/350K/450K SL350K CB500K/550/750
Genuine Honda D.I.D cam chain rivit type master link for 219T type chain. This master link will only fit with 219T D.I.D brand chain which was the original (OEM) cam chain used on the models below.
4into1.com
RobMan
Veteran Member
I am sure I will probably get a new chain but it seemed odd to me that Honda does not seem to provide any wear specs. I suppose they figure that anyone rebuilding an engine would just change it for as you say peace of mind. Thanks
RobMan
Veteran Member
Thank you for the link for a new chain. They seem to be a hard find just Googleing to find a DID 219T chain although I did find one on ebay for about $65.00 that appeared to be in the correct packaging but the vendor you recommend would be cheaper as well as being vouched for . I have already ordered a new master link from 4into1 when I ordered a gasket and seal set and will probably order another one later as I am sure I will need to order other stuff.Since I saw no mention of how many miles are on the bike in the early part of this thread, combined with some of the sketchy work that seems to have been done on it, I absolutely agree with replacing the cam chain. And the best place to get one is here -
Honda CB 450K CL 450 Steuerkette D.I.D. 219T128 mit Schloß timimg cam chain | eBay
Honda CB 450 K 1966 - 1975. Honda CB 500 T Twin DOHC 1974 - 1976.www.ebay.com
I believe his chains come with a pressed side plate master link, which I personally have never felt comfortable with so I buy DID rivet type master links from 4into1, get a couple in case you have to break the chain again before the engine is finished and in the frame
Genuine Honda - D.I.D Cam Chain Master Link - 219T - Rivet Type - CA/CB/CL72/77 CB/CL/350K/450K SL350K CB500K/550/750
Genuine Honda D.I.D cam chain rivit type master link for 219T type chain. This master link will only fit with 219T D.I.D brand chain which was the original (OEM) cam chain used on the models below.
The engine I am rebuilding had 33000 miles on the clock and I know it was worked on extensively at least once. No telling if the cam chain was changed or not of course. The donor engine has obviously had the cam chain issues with the front of the jugs between the cylinders repaired where the cam chain had worn it. Big weld inside and out that I have been intending to take a pic of just to share. Also when I pulled the cam chain tensioner it was froze up and I had to soak it for a couple of days to get it loose.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I did skim through the FSM and two other manuals (Chilton's and Clymer) — I didn't find anything, either. I wonder if this is because the designers didn't anticipate the lifespan that these machines would have.
In any case 33,000 miles seems a good total for the original chain.
This is the main reason, the unknown. And the prior maintenance it (may have) had, as well as the prior rebuild. Your donor engine is a great example of the lack of good maintenance as well as the wear and tear on the chain because of it. Good that you checked the tensioner assembly for proper operation too.
They don't really provide any specific wear specs for the drive (rear) chain either. Just as the FSMs in our library were designed with the dealership mechanic in mind, not the public, a good mechanic would make a judgment call on the cam chain based on long term reliability. From my perspective, it's all about never having to go back in there again as long as you own it.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Finally trying to get the horse before cart and stopped by the DMV office to get started on the process of getting a title. I am getting to the invest money part so need to cool my jets a bit. I am sure most of you are well aware of the issues with getting a title with only a bill of sale but I thought I would document this part a bit for North Carolina. First step is to get the state License & Theft Bureau officer to stop by and get the VIN and do their thing which I will do Monday. Once that comes back clear I have to get a couple of appraisals done to determine the amount of the Indemnity Bond I have to purchase. (The DMV has a schedule of newer vehicle values they use but 1972 is too old). Once I have that I can stop back by the DMV with a couple forms to get a bonded title. After 3 years I can get a clean title on it. A bit of a process and more expense.
wentwest
Veteran Member
It keeps surprising me that California, the State everyone loves to hate for its rules and regulations, hardly gives a crap about no Title. They look in their records and if the bike is in there with the right owner and plate numbers that's enough. They might charge you some crazy fees if it wasn't put on non-operational, but you'll get your title in the mail. If the bike has fallen off the system (after 7 or 10 years of no records at all it vanishes) they run the VIN through some national database and if it's clear you get a title. And they ask you to fill out a form where you swear to the price you report paying and they tax you on that value.
RobMan
Veteran Member
I wish NC made it bit simpler. With having to pay for appraisals and buy an Indemnity bond it adds an unexpected expense which doesn't count the DMV fees themselves.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Looking for advice on how to get advance backing plate off the camshaft spindle. I have been trying WD40, PB Blaster, heat from both a heat gun and propane torch and so far it laughs at me. Prying with allen wrenches and other pry bars while tapping with plastic mallet and blocks of wood with ball peen hammer to avoid damage. I have been working on this for several weeks letting it soak for days at a time but no luck so far. Even ran some mechanic wire under it to try pry up when heating but really need a third arm. Sigh
That one must really be rusted on there. Kroil is one of the better penetrants for this kind of stuff, and of course heat, so you might try picking up some of that. You really have nothing to lose at this point, the oil seal behind the advancer is replaceable and eventually penetrant and heat is going to win.
RobMan
Veteran Member
You mentioned the Kroil before and I need to pick some up at Home Depot. Not urgent to get off but don't want to let it beat me.
boddy
Veteran Member
I was going to suggest loosening the cam bearing on the opposite side by about 5mm, apply some heat to the advancer and then give the points end of the camshaft a sharp wrap with a flat ended punch with a 10mm diameter (see the circled area in red below). Unfortunately the points advancer has a shoulder on the back side that is 22mm in diameter, and only covers the 'soft' edge of the oil seal underneath. If you wanted to give it a wrap, you will have to put something under the advancer to keep it locked in place.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Yes that does sound like the next step if the Kroil does not work. I already have the bearing cap off the other side of the cam so I can lift it up about an 1/8 of an inch to get something under the backing plate to hold it up when I try to give it good wack and see if I can get it to come loose. Thanks for the suggestion.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Thanks @boddy I finally got the backing plate loose doing what you suggested. I used a metal paint can opener I bent to go under the plate and hold it up while a gave it a few wack using a aluminum washer and socket on the end of the spline. It was definitely locked in but once it started moving gave up. I used the old Chevy temp sensor as a drift to finish driving the cam spindle out of the backing plate. The pin is still in the shaft and doesn't want to come out so letting it soak a bit. I don't think I did any damage to advance mechanism so feel good about that. Once I got the exhaust cam out I could see it looked galled a bit on the cam lobes. Thankfully the other exhaust cam looks fine.
Nice, glad it worked out. And a galled exhaust cam? Wow, surprising. /s
I'd be willing to bet there are far less than half as many good exhaust cams out there for the 450 compared to intakes.
I'd be willing to bet there are far less than half as many good exhaust cams out there for the 450 compared to intakes.
RobMan
Veteran Member
I am sure you are right on the availability of exhaust cams, I have noticed that new or NOS intake cams are available from David Silver and a couple of other vendors I have seen but I have not seen any exhaust cams except for used ones on ebay. The cam lobes are not that bad and I believe they could be dressed up with a whetstone if needed. I am planning on measuring the bearing surfaces just to see what they look like.
Had a officer come by from the DMV this morning and get the VIN number and run it. He sent me the report this afternoon and it is not showing as stolen or anything so I can move forward with getting a title for it. While were talking he says he has broken a few hearts with one case on a vintage car that someone had invested $20,000 in coming back as stolen. I think any future projects will have to have a title or where the seller can apply for a a lost title.
Had a officer come by from the DMV this morning and get the VIN number and run it. He sent me the report this afternoon and it is not showing as stolen or anything so I can move forward with getting a title for it. While were talking he says he has broken a few hearts with one case on a vintage car that someone had invested $20,000 in coming back as stolen. I think any future projects will have to have a title or where the seller can apply for a a lost title.
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wentwest
Veteran Member
That title issue can be sticky. If it was stolen 30 years ago it's never going to be yours, and that owner doesn't owe you a cent. We can register a bike non-operational, pay once and not again until you decide to put it on the road legally.
RobMan
Veteran Member
This is how I understand it works in NC. It is going to be registered non operational and I will be required to post an indemnity bond with the which will be for 1.5X the appraised value of the bike and I am getting the appraisals done by 2 local bike shops and done on the value of the bike as is so shouldn't be much. Once I do that the DMV will issue a bonded title which stays in effect for 3 years. If some one comes forward and makes a claim on the bike they make the claim to the state of NC not me directly and after 3 years I get a clear title. Still if I ever do another project it will be on a bike with a clear title.
It's been @10 years since I left CA but last I knew of the Non-Op had a renewal and small fee yearly. The PO of the roadbike never kept it up so there was money due at DMV when I registered it.
RobMan
Veteran Member
I will be sure to ask that question when I go to the DMV just to make sure there are no surprises. Interesting thing with NC DMV is some fees are cash only and some can be paid with a card so you end up using the handy ATM machine they have in the office for the cash only ones.
I just keep one plate and rotate. Nobody ever checks a VIN on an old MC around here.
I’ve even done it on autos. Back when I had two almost identical C-10’s I made duplicate VIN plates - everything else was so modified only that VIN plate was left in each.
I’ve even done it on autos. Back when I had two almost identical C-10’s I made duplicate VIN plates - everything else was so modified only that VIN plate was left in each.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Sounding like home where I grew up in southeast Oklahoma. Too many darn rules and regulations!
wentwest
Veteran Member
No annual fees for non-op in California, but if you had unpaid fees when you put it on non-op those live on. Just so you know, if the bike is of historic interest and you are a collector (no official definitions for any of this that I know of) you can request a waiver of all the old fees and penalties.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Question, what material is the cam bearing caps made out of? When I was cleaning the caps I noticed there was a gold tint coming through the aluminum so wondering if they are in fact plated brass or if they have some brass inserts forged in them?
They're aluminum, lightly polished and clear coated from the factory, which is what the yellow color is likely from.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Well this is the pits, literally! Between doing yard work and getting the garden ready I have been working on the cylinder head that I was planning on using when I have time. Cleaned it up, stripped the rattle can paint off the PO had sprayed on it and then resprayed with Dupli-Color DE1615 Aluminum Engine Enamel and thought it turned out pretty nice.
Started cleaning up the cam end caps and realized I still need to lap the valves in. Remembering the warning to do it lightly I got out my tube of lapping compound I have had longer than I can remember and the suction cup tools and got started. Started with the left intake and did a few passes and the valve face looked great but there was some small spotting in the face of the valve seat that worried me a bit but seemed like it would be OK. Turned my attention to the right intake and again the valve looked great the the valve face not so much. Definite pitting that will require grinding. Going to take a closer look at the donor engine head and see if it is in any better shape but not getting my hopes up. You can see the pitting in markup area and it is enough to catch the tip of a scribe.
Started cleaning up the cam end caps and realized I still need to lap the valves in. Remembering the warning to do it lightly I got out my tube of lapping compound I have had longer than I can remember and the suction cup tools and got started. Started with the left intake and did a few passes and the valve face looked great but there was some small spotting in the face of the valve seat that worried me a bit but seemed like it would be OK. Turned my attention to the right intake and again the valve looked great the the valve face not so much. Definite pitting that will require grinding. Going to take a closer look at the donor engine head and see if it is in any better shape but not getting my hopes up. You can see the pitting in markup area and it is enough to catch the tip of a scribe.
The seat with the pitting needs to be ground, it'll only get worse.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Yes that is my opinion as well although I have to admit to some disappointment.
RobMan
Veteran Member
I have seen some chatter from @ancientdad and others about the care that needs to be taken by the machinist when grinding the valves and seats. I have also seen that the valve stem tip needs to be ground down if the valve seat is ground. Is this correct and if so is there any documentation? I looked in the FSM but didn't see any mention of it and I want to make sure the person doing the valve job has all the right info.
It’s really tough to find a machinist that has the proper dies, a decent knowledge of these engines and actual willingness to do a small job.
For the valve tips, they may also have to be ground down - depending on how far the cut the seat, you’ll have to take the same amount off the tip - again, requires proper tools, etc. if they don’t have to go very deep, you might be able to get away with it, but you won’t know until you try to adjust the valves.
Finding a machinist with some bike engine experience is almost mandatory now. Cutting valve seats is a precision task and you might have to tip the valves afterward depending on how much was cut from the seat, but you do NOT get the valves ground. They're not like car valves, they have a thin coating of stellite (about .010") and can be ground through very easily so lapping is all you can do with them. As Jim always says, if the seats are cut correctly (and if you use new valves) you don't have to lap them.
And fortunately that can be determined once the head is assembled because of the design of the 450 head, so the top end of the engine doesn't have to be fully assembled to find out.
RobMan
Veteran Member
The machinist I am planning on using is younger guy but he primarily works on motorcycles and ATVs. I had really only spoken to him about boring the cylinders and I was impressed with his shop, some other work he showed me and knowledge of his trade. He also had a 70's 350 in the shop that was loaned to him by a vintage motorcycle collector and he was using it to race locally. I will have to talk to him about doing a valve job specifically. The valves themselves look good so if possible I will just have him redo the seats and emphasize to do them as lightly as possible.
I was taking a look at the donor head as well and while the seats look better I noticed that one of the valve guides is damaged with about half the diameter of the part of the guide that sticks out past the material the head inside the combustion chamber broken off. Some days it doesn't pay to pick up a wrench.
I was taking a look at the donor head as well and while the seats look better I noticed that one of the valve guides is damaged with about half the diameter of the part of the guide that sticks out past the material the head inside the combustion chamber broken off. Some days it doesn't pay to pick up a wrench.
Very true. If you've got a good machinist close by you can start with just the seat and progress - I sent everything out at once because I could only find one place remotely near me and really didn't feel like trickling in small jobs, since those get pushed to the back of the bench all the time.! Luckily for Rob here, he's in NC which probably has as many engine machinists per capita as the inland empire in CA.
If you do get stumped, here's who I used, they've got the stuff for CB450's. Definitely not cheap, but their turnaround time was remarkably quick for that world (<2 weeks from the time it left my house to arriving back)
ETA: D'oh!
Home - AMS MotoMachine & Supply
The ”motorcycle” side of Automotive Machine & Supply, Inc that is dedicated to provide precision work, and quality parts for both American V-Tw
amsmotomachine.com
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RobMan
Veteran Member
Thanks for the info but am not seeing a the name of the machine shop or a link. Hopefully the guy I am planning on using will work out as he is just a few miles down the road.
If you can't find anyone locally you feel you can trust, you could send the head to Schumann Motor Works. He does excellent work but he's in Milwaukie Oregon - https://www.facebook.com/p/Schumann-Motor-Works-100054197273586/
He did the head for my drag bike project and custom made titanium valves as well.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Thank you! I had to look up Cleburne, Texas to see where it at as I grew up in southeast Oklahoma so ranged down into North Texas some but don't think I ever went through there. I was also stationed at Bergstrom AFB (now closed) in Austin 2 different times so familiar with Texas but it is a big state.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Thank you! I am hoping I don't have to resort to sending parts off but it is good to have options.
If you got real lost getting from one to the other, you'd end up in Cleburne! If you ever do get back down to Austin, the change will blow you away, Bergstrom is now the airport and the airport is now a multi-million dollar faux "live/walk" canned subdivision.
Anyway, let's hope your local guy can do it - since you've got two heads maybe have him do one first and then the other?
RobMan
Veteran Member
I was stationed in Austin for the first time in 1976 so had the opportunity of enjoying Austin as a young man when it was cool. Armadillo World Headquarters was still open as well as a lot of other cool clubs. Heck I may have bumped into Wayland and Willie and never knew it.
I might have him try his hand on the worst of the two heads first just to see his skill and to let him have a chance to make any mistakes on it if there are any. I wondering are the valve seats in the heads replaceable?
Yeah, have him do the one with the chipped valve guide and ask him his opinion on the guide's usability when he sees it. Since many have cut off the ends of the guides during porting the head, he might tell you it isn't a very big deal.
You'll notice the entire combustion chamber is a steel "skull" pressed into the head, it's all one piece. On earlier 450s and many of the other Honda engines the seats are pressed into the aluminum combustion chamber.
RobMan
Veteran Member
That is good to hear about the valve guide. I had wondered if it would make that much difference in operation but I also wondered what would have caused it to break like that. If I were going to use that head I think I would have a new guide pressed in if they are still available.
It didn't look like the valve seats would be replaceable and I saw nothing in the FSM about it but I was curious especially after you had mentioned had a head that was messed up by an over zealous machinist.
RobMan
Veteran Member
While on the subject of heads and valves this brings to mind cams and specifically cam side clearance and to use shims as needed to get within spec. It dosn't really say in the FSM how to measure though. Would rigging up a dial indicator be best or is there a simpler way? I though of temp installing the cam with the caps and gaskets and then pushing the cam to one side , make a mark with a scribe or marker and then push the other way and measure with Feeler Gage to get a rough measurement. Neither of the motors I have appear to have used shims so not sure if this is typically a problem. The range is pretty forgiving at 0.05 to 0.35mm (0.002~0.014inl. I did notice that while the shims are available on eBay the sellers are quite proud of them. Thanks.