A C78 project

boddy

boddy

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I've been looking for a winter project and there hasn't been much available in my area that wasn't outrageously priced. The other day a C77 came up about an hour away. I went to see it yesterday and gave the seller a deposit and said I would pick it up next week.

When I was young I didn't like the look of the dreams and preferred the CB77 sport models. As I am older and wiser now I can appreciate the styling. This one looks fairly complete except for the slash cut mufflers and the ape bars. Oh yes, it also has the mandatory front fender smoosh but the rear fender looks in good shape. The engine serial number is C77E -1008xxx. I couldn't see the frame number below the swing arm pivot as it was greasy and the foot peg was in the way. The owner listed it as a 1966 C77 but it will need more investigation to determine the exact year. I will check the frame number and wire harness to see if the tab with the year is still there. The tank looked relatively clean inside and the petcock moved smoothly. There is no key but noted that the number began with HA - I will check with 12ozPBR once I get the number. The right side cover is rusted through and will need some metal work. The seller was a picker and had the bike in his shed from 2006 and told me he bought it off an old couple that had it in a barn for decades. It has about 11K miles.

Last thing is that the engine won't turn over. It's likely seized but will look at things once I get the bike next week.

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Should be fun to follow this project. Does it have paperwork? Is that difficult to sort out in Quebec?

The red color, the ape hangers, and backrest all suggest an interesting history! Too bad you can't talk to the original owners.
 
It looks pretty much original aside from the hack job on the back of the stock mufflers, and of course the add-ons like the crash bars, rack, sissy bar and apes.
 
Looking good there Brad will follow this with interest as you progress. Get a parts manual from the site here as they are a must in my books, (y)
 
stl360+450 said:
Should be fun to follow this project. Does it have paperwork? Is that difficult to sort out in Quebec?

The red color, the ape hangers, and backrest all suggest an interesting history! Too bad you can't talk to the original owners.
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There was no paperwork for this one but I'm not too worried. When I went to get a plate for my CB450 the license bureau had no record of the bike even though I had the registration papers in my name from 1982 (the last time I had it on the road). I had to get the provincial police to come and verify the VIN and they gave me a paper saying it checked out. With that I went for the inspection and a couple of days later I had a new plate for the 450. I expect to go through the same process for this one.

We will never know the story but I have a feeling some kid had the bike and wanted a louder sound so he chopped the exhaust and then put the ape hangers on to look cool.
 
Flyin900 said:
Get a parts manual from the site here as they are a must in my books
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I plan to get as much info on this bike as possible and read through the threads of other builds on this forum. From what I have seen the front suspension can be pretty tricky to work on as well as a few things in the engine.
 
Very nice. Seven digit motor and frame numbers began in 1965, so that makes sense. Be on the lookout for inked dynastic date codes inside the cast aluminum parts. 65s have the later, more conventional battery and improved engagement dog profiles in the transmissions. Red and black were the two most popular original colors.
 
What gem. I love the attitude that somebody tried to put into this. Please start a build thread and I'll follow it closely. I have a C77 that will be my project for winter 26/27.
 
Picked up the Dream this morning which was about an hour away. Looked at it a bit closer and manged to get the serial numbers off the frame (C78 1003xxx) and the engine (C77E 1003xxx). The engine and frame are exactly 30 numbers apart.

A little bit of rubbing with some chrome cleaner on the headlight, it brought back the chrome to a very passable condition. I think the bike will clean up really well as it appears it's mostly 40 years of barn dust and grime that is sitting on the surface. I was thinking it might be a complete tear down to paint everything but it looks like the paint might buff out nicely, keeping it all original.
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I will be needing a key, so I will be contacting @12ozPBR to see if he has one - NA604.
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I thought the side covers were silver, but after a little cleaning I see that they are actually chrome. Did Honda have chrome covers as an options? I've only ever seen painted covers matching the rest of the bike.
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It's too bad the right side has corroded right through.
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I'm amazed that so much of it is original (except for the handle bars) - plastic covers, foot peg rubbers, main stand rubber. Unfortunately the tool kit was not there.
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The engine won't kick over but that may be a kick start issue. I will try to see if it turns over via the rotor bolt when I get some time - (bought on condition that wife's priorities come first and this is supposed to be a winter project!)

I already started looking for handle bars but there is not much out there. I haven't taken off the twist grip yet, but I think this bike has the sliding hinge that sits in a slot in the handle bar. Worst case scenario I could get similar looking bars and cut a slot for the mechanism or change to the CB77 style twist grip.

Looks like it will be a fun project assuming I can source all of the parts.
 
boddy said:
Picked up the Dream this morning which was about an hour away. Looked at it a bit closer and manged to get the serial numbers off the frame (C78 1003xxx) and the engine (C77E 1003xxx). The engine and frame are exactly 30 numbers apart.
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Nice! Don't see that often.
boddy said:
A little bit of rubbing with some chrome cleaner on the headlight, it brought back the chrome to a very passable condition. I think the bike will clean up really well as it appears it's mostly 40 years of barn dust and grime that is sitting on the surface. I was thinking it might be a complete tear down to paint everything but it looks like the paint might buff out nicely, keeping it all original.
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Chrome does look like it will clean up nicely based on that one spot.
boddy said:
I thought the side covers were silver, but after a little cleaning I see that they are actually chrome. Did Honda have chrome covers as an options?
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I don't know about options, Honda didn't offer any factory pre-assembly options you could choose back then AFAIK. Might have been a dealer option like the Hondaline stuff was, and I do know I've seen other Dreams with chrome sidecovers.
boddy said:
It's too bad the right side has corroded right through.
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Guessing the battery did that, vent hose might have come loose or wasn't connected at some point. Sad because if true, it was preventable.
 
ancientdad said:
Guessing the battery did that, vent hose might have come loose or wasn't connected at some point. Sad because if true, it was preventable.
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I thought so as well until I pulled the cover. The Honda parts manual calls this side the "distribution box". Not sure now what would have caused the corrosion. It has gotten to the starter solenoid, frame and swing arm.
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boddy said:
I thought so as well until I pulled the cover. The Honda parts manual calls this side the "distribution box". Not sure now what would have caused the corrosion. It has gotten to the starter solenoid, frame and swing arm.
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Ah, I've watched too many threads about the CA95 then maybe... :rolleyes:
 
Looks like you scored a winner that hasn’t been molested at least on the distribution box area. The corrosion is likely just moisture and time if it wasn’t stored in a low humidity environment.
The CL 77 I restored was seized when I brought it home, yet it rotated the pistons with the rotor bolt. It was an issue in the clutch and transmission shift fork area.
 
Turn signals, must be a home market version?
Try to refrain from jumping up and down on the kickstarter, to free the engine. The kickstarter knuckle, that splines onto the kickstarter shaft, may split.
 
mike in idaho said:
Turn signals, must be a home market version?
Try to refrain from jumping up and down on the kickstarter, to free the engine. The kickstarter knuckle, that splines onto the kickstarter shaft, may split.
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Yes I think it was likely the European version that was imported into Canada. I won't be jumping of the kickstart as I don't want to break anything, I am taking it slow with this one as parts are not that easy to come by.
 
Very nice.
7 digit # is a 65-66.
Pull plugs add a little oil on the rings and roll/rock it in 2nd gear to get it free.
I've looked for original bars a few times and never got lucky. Some are close but not with the moderate swept back like originals. Be patient.
 
boddy said:
Yes I think it was likely the European version that was imported into Canada. I won't be jumping of the kickstart as I don't want to break anything, I am taking it slow with this one as parts are not that easy to come by.
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The Deep Creep product from the makers of Seafoam has been my magic elixir for engines. I creeps and soaks well into the rings and bore area. That said I have never had a stuck motor project I have bought in the past. The CL77 was confirmed it would turn over on the rotor before I bought it. Some things are beyond what I wish to tackle, yet I see there are lots of solutions for those who have had to deal with that issue.
 
Dreams are the oddballs, with chain on the right.

Too bad about the slash cut mufflers. I'd probably try to weld an angled plate with a center pipe in it, nothing to lose there.
 
Don't know if the Dreams had removable baffles like the CB77's but that would have been a better option if the PO wanted a throatier exhaust. That's a good idea to weld an angled plate on with a center pipe. When time allows I will see how well the mufflers clean up - might even just use some high temp paint on the inside of the mufflers to keep any rust from coming back.
 
boddy said:
Don't know if the Dreams had removable baffles like the CB77's but that would have been a better option if the PO wanted a throatier exhaust. That's a good idea to weld an angled plate on with a center pipe. When time allows I will see how well the mufflers clean up - might even just use some high temp paint on the inside of the mufflers to keep any rust from coming back.
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My buddy runs his without the removable end baffles. They are only about 10 inches long. We bought some but never put them in.

I would de-rust and laminate some sheet metal to the inside of that side cover then smooth and blend with JBweld. I've seen JBweld polished up on pitted fork tubes that were pretty nice.
Good spot for a VHT sticker, if not good enough.
 
ballbearian said:
I would de-rust and laminate some sheet metal to the inside of that side cover then smooth and blend with JBweld. I've seen JBweld polished up on pitted fork tubes that were pretty nice.
Good spot for a VHT sticker, if not good enough.
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Good option - the alternative would be to purchase another side cover and then paint both covers to match the red.
 
I was originally going to take the ignition switch to a locksmith to have a key made but I found an ebay seller that had a key so it's on order with delivery expected this weekend. When I took the switch out I noticed the black wire was rubbing on the headlight case exposing some bare wires. I will replace that wire and clean up the connections.
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I also ordered Bill Silvers document package for the C77. A lot of info there which will keep me busy for a while.

I was going to take off the rotor cover but I have misplaced my #2 JIS impact bit. Ordered some new JIS bits that should arrive tomorrow. The screws may need some heat as well as they are not budging with the JIS screwdriver, even with a wrench on the end for more torque.
 
boddy said:
I was originally going to take the ignition switch to a locksmith to have a key made but I found an ebay seller that had a key so it's on order with delivery expected this weekend. When I took the switch out I noticed the black wire was rubbing on the headlight case exposing some bare wires. I will replace that wire and clean up the connections.
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While the switch is out, you should consider taking it apart, servicing the contacts and giving it a little lube. Just carefully bend the 3 tabs outward and the bakelite center will come out, but do it slowly so the check balls and springs don't get lost. The older, repairable switches last a long time and being able to work on the internals of them helps.

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I did this on my CB450 switch but was a little apprehensive doing it on this one as it has 6 positions and wasn't sure how may plates and springs would come flying out when I took it apart. You're right, I should do some maintenance on it now while it is out.
 
boddy said:
I did this on my CB450 switch but was a little apprehensive doing it on this one as it has 6 positions and wasn't sure how may plates and springs would come flying out when I took it apart. You're right, I should do some maintenance on it now while it is out.
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I would flood it with WD40, work it, flood again, etc. They are a bear to get back together correctly. Many pics and mark all parts for alignment as you go.
 
ballbearian said:
I would flood it with WD40, work it, flood again, etc. They are a bear to get back together correctly. Many pics and mark all parts for alignment as you go.
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Yep, on the CL77 ignition switch it was a bit of a puzzle to determine how the contacts were set up. That said it worked out OK once I spent some time with the pattern and switch alignment. On the JIS case screws torch heat is your friend along with an JIS impact driver, as there will likely be galvanic corrosion on the threads after 60+ years.
 
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ballbearian said:
The 5mm cover screws are NLA and extinct .90 thread pitch so tap/flatten cross with flat punch (helps loosen and drive penetrant into)
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One of the screws that did come out was actually a slotted machine screw that was only about 10mm long. I guess the PO was unable to find one of these unobtainium screws and forced something else in to cover the hole. The fun begins....
 
From what I have read, the M3, M4 and M5 fasteners changed pitch in 1967 to adhere to the ISO standard. Has anyone found a supplier for these rare M5x.9 pitch screws/bolts? I'm thinking maybe I should just buy an M5x.8 helicoil set and and redo the existing screw holes to take the standard JIS fasteners. Thoughts?
 
Brad, depending on the hole placement and the surrounding metal area an M-6 X 1.0TP would be an easier solution to tap and size those holes for a much more commonly used M6 JIS screw used on the later bikes. I checked the size of hole required to tap a M-6 X 1.0 TP standard JIS screw and it is an M5 drill bit. Since you already have an M5 hole there, then upsizing using a M6 tap alone should be sufficient. If you go this route I would start with a fresh M6 regular tap and finish with a M6 bottoming tap since you will have a few holes to upsize.
You may not need the bottoming tap, yet the lead area in first 5mm of a regular tap is not really cutting new thread, it is aligning the tap into the hole.
I would also check the outer case holes to ensure an M6 JIS screw head will fit correctly. I surmise you will also need to drill the M5 outer case holes to accept the M6 JIS screw shaft diameter .
 
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boddy said:
From what I have read, the M3, M4 and M5 fasteners changed pitch in 1967 to adhere to the ISO standard. Has anyone found a supplier for these rare M5x.9 pitch screws/bolts? I'm thinking maybe I should just buy an M5x.8 helicoil set and and redo the existing screw holes to take the standard JIS fasteners. Thoughts?
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The 3 on the stator cover and 2 on the points cover are biggest issue. I ground some round head into countersunk oval ones from McMaster Carr but they may be out. Don't know if any other fastener suppliers have any.
The old selenium rectifiers has short slotted ones, worth saving to use on the points plates.
 
Flyin900 said:
I surmise you will also need to drill the M5 outer case holes to accept the M6 JIS screw shaft diameter .
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I was looking at that and the M6 oval screws won't fit, so the cover will have to be drilled to accept the M6 head and shaft.
 
boddy said:
I was looking at that and the M6 oval screws won't fit, so the cover will have to be drilled to accept the M6 head and shaft.
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Tom is the expert here and he made a good point about those oval heads and the stator area where upsizing the hole would be an issue. On the points cover you will have enough metal around the area, yet the stator would be an issue. There are 6 mm oval head screws available from Honda as the CL 77 I did was all 6mm I believe.
Either option will require work to refit the odd sized M5 threaded stuff.
 
boddy said:
when I replace the selenium with one from Sparck Moto.
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Oh boy, are you gonna have fun. I did both my 64 and Charles 65.

65 Dream, upgrades, maintenance, odds and ends

My friend, Charles, managed to fry another rectifier and his bike hasn’t run that great, so time to replace that cheap one with a Sparcksmoto unit and replace all the terrible turn signal wires as well as some other needed items. Since the rear wheel must come out to access the wiring channels...
www.vintagehondatwins.com www.vintagehondatwins.com
 
Flyin900 said:
Tom is the expert here and he made a good point about those oval heads and the stator area where upsizing the hole would be an issue. On the points cover you will have enough metal around the area, yet the stator would be an issue. There are 6 mm oval head screws available from Honda as the CL 77 I did was all 6mm I believe.
Either option will require work to refit the odd sized M5 threaded stuff.
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Dave, didn't you just retap to 5x.80 and be careful to not overtorque those screws? Neither the stator nor points cover are high torque areas. There is not really a leak risk. If they do strip, then a 5x.80 helicoil may work, if there is room.
I don't know if the head diameter could be reduced on some stainless hardware store 6mm ovals. That may work if they used a #2 phillips head cross.

But wait! It's even more fun on the condenser mount with the 9mm hex head 5x.90 bolts. I was going to move mine, as others have, to the frame horn mount plate, but then went EI. Charles still running points, so left that dog lie.
 
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